Let's Not Ban RapeLay

[Silva]

Wait a second. At least in my country, the kid will still play the game. An adult, by enforcement if not by law, only has to be present while buying the game. That could be ANY adult, and whatever happens at home once the game is bought is likely to differ. So what you're saying is just not true for Australia, and last I checked the rules regarding MA15+ games were the same here as in America. Maybe you're right for Canada, though.

First of all, on what do you base the statement "the kid will play the game?" I'm quoting from consecutive government studies conclusively demonstrating that a consistent rating system, properly popularized and enforced, is an effective method of controlling access to games. Saying "they'll play them anyway" doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I base my statement on real experience, that is, I've seen kids playing Grand Theft Auto in their homes without parental supervision. Sure, it's not statistically verified, but my opinion is based on the fact that in a liberal household there isn't a perception that letting a kid see an adult game is worse than seeing an adult movie. More importantly, I agree with said perception. I was purely correcting your point that "they wouldn't play it" just because they had to have supervision buying it. I was not making some weird counterpoint, I agree with you on your overall message.

The biggest problem with Australia, which I assume is where you're from, isn't games like RapeLay but the lack of a functional rating system. And your suggestion that the state should have a greater say in the child-rearing process than the parent is more than a little disturbing.

I don't know where you got that suggestion from. I certainly didn't make it. And since I had a letter to the editor published in the Sydney Morning Herald, the New South Wales state newspaper, defending the idea of an R18+ Rating for video games for Australia, I don't think I need a lecture on what my country needs, thank you.

I'm very much against government hands on the child-rearing process.

 

[Andy Chalk]

I was purely correcting your point that "they wouldn't play it" just because they had to have supervision buying it. I was not making some weird counterpoint, I agree with you on your overall message.

I don't recall saying that. I said not all games are for kids, I said the ESRB rates games in North America to assist with ensuring age-appropriate gaming, and I said that gamers aren't arguing for kids to have access to AO material. They probably would play it if given a chance, just like they'll play with loaded guns that get left lying around the house.

I think maybe we just got our wires crossed here, because I'm honestly feeling a bit confused.

 

[incal11]

If it weren't a problem at all, then why are there separate women-only train cars to help prevent subway molestation?

You're just nitpicking on the meaning of my sentence ; and I brought you a link to show you how, despite Japan being so patriarchal, the US isn't much better in term of unreported rape, so my point remain .

If you are still interested by the subject after writing this article you could go there.
http://yestofreedom.org/

I love how their second post is basically entitled "why we do exactly what we tell you not to". That entire site is immediately declared null and void for me.

You didn't read that one , have you ?
As might be expected that site had a lot of problems with trolls, none of your opinions will be censored as long as you are intelligent and polite.

 

[sockpuppet]

I don't believe it just happens to be coincidence that, as Andy excellently points out in the article that Japan is both the biggest, if not only, market for this type of game, but also probably the only place in the world where they have been forced to introduce women-only cars on crowded passenger trains [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car].

Yes, Japan is TOTALLY the only market for this game...I'm sorry, have you been on the internet lately? 4chan? etc? Don't try to make Japan this huge, disgusting, rape-obsessed culture.

I also find it interesting that you link to a wiki page that contradicts your argument and reason for linking there. It says that "Egypt, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Mexico, Belarus[1], the Philippines and Dubai[2], also offer women-only train cars."
"Probably the only place in the world," huh? Might want to check your sources before you cite them, buddeh. And God forbid they enact such a system to protect their female population, yes, how DARE they solve problems?! Why can't they just sweep them under the carpet like the rest of civilization?

 

[sockpuppet]

Murder doesn't HAVE to be reported. Rape does.

I don't get your logic, both are crimes, and how their perpetrators are caught and punished or not is unrelated to the nature of the crime.

Also, insisting that most rapes in Japan are unreported because of the great shame they bring there is not a valid argument.
Serious studies do prove that many rapes are unreported everywhere ; don't think women are less ashamed of being raped because thei're not japanese.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Personally I find this whole "shuned by the whole family" shtick doubtful.

Banning videogames about rape sounds like a good idea. Here's why it's not.

If you are still interested by the subject after writing this article you could go there.
http://yestofreedom.org/

...it's fairly easy to determine if someone is alive or dead (barring disappearance), yes? If the death as examined by medical practitioners looks fishy, and foul play is suspected, then a murder investigation can start without any report of a crime. By its nature, rape is only between the victim and attacker unless there's a witness; if the victim does not report it then there is absolutely no way it can be counted.

Rape carries with it a deep sense of cultural shame everywhere, not just Japan - I certainly agree. But Japan is a very patriarchal society, and a society very heavily based around the idea of saving face, etc.

If it weren't a problem at all, then why are there separate women-only train cars to help prevent subway molestation?

I'm confused. This seems to be turning into an argument of 'rape is bad, and so is murder.' I'm guessing we're arguing over whether or not Japan's supposedly squeaky-clean crime slate concerning rape is accurate, given the cultural influence that discourages the reporting of rape cases. I suppose the culture is to blame for a small number of unreported rape cases, but the same could be said of hate crimes down south, or illegal marijuana out west.

I'm not saying that it isn't a problem, and, in fact, the establishment of women-only train cars proves that it is/was a problem. The government then took steps to accommodate the worries and safety of their population. Idk, it sounds like Japan is doing a lot more to solve their criminal problems than most other countries.
As far as the game goes, it's a game! Erotic novels have many of the same, er, 'situations,' bu nobody's crying out against them! (Possibly because they aren't nearly as easy to get, but that's a whole 'nother issue.)

I would say that Chalk's article sums up the situation rather well, and addresses most of the issues, concerns, and hysterical fear-mongering brought up by the game itself. It's a very well-written argument, and I wish someone at CNN would take a look at it, as it's a bit more fair than the 'rape is awful' knee-jerk condemnation offered by the news networks.

 

[The_Graff]

It is a problem...you ban one, and then, another and another.

Soon, only games we will be able to play will contain fluffy clouds and good will towards everyne..

true, but are you suggesting that rapelay and other such games will not filter out online?

 

[humantis]

I agree completely. I think Rapelay and other games like it are disgusting. But censorship is far more disgusting then they could ever be.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Altorin]

Do you, as a human, know of something that is more evil than raping a woman? If you do, should that be allowed in games as long as we say people under the age of 18 can't play it??

genocide

and yes

And if you think we all just want our rape fantasy fix, you're wrong.

I just don't want to set a precedent that it's suddenly "ok" to ban a game.

Once you can ban a game, you can technically ban any game. The next time some controversial game comes, they can just say "Hey, well we banned that game, we can ban this one too because we don't like it."

Allow the people to decide what they want to buy. If it bothers you, do not associate with those people.

 

[NoblePhilistineFox]

I'm anti-censorship and anti-lazy-high-profile-news-outlets-looking-for-a-cheap-bit-of-scandal-and-controversy, however, a line must be drawn somewhere. Also, you may say that the game exists as a result of the culture in Japan, but I'm afraid I have to say in that case that something needs sorted out in Japan. A country where women need dedicated train carriages just so they wont constantly get groped is a country that has serious problems.

Anyway, yes, I say a line should be drawn, and it should be drawn long before this game. I'm sure if it was a child porn game no one would defend it, why should this be any different.

what about Doki Doki majo shinpai?
alot of people find that game fun.
its about choice, not control.
and I think alot of people seem to forget about that.
in the words of the surprisingly wise south park.
"its everything, or nothing"
If the kids somehow obtain copies of the game(or other innapropriate material) than it is the negligence of the parents that led to it, because as we all know, kids find stuff.

Off topic, if they do change Japan, I hope they keep the cherry blossem as thier flower, its so pretty ^_^.

but back on topic, its cultural differances, same as religion or food.
but then again, women have the right to feel protected, so cant they just give them mace or something?
bleargh, my head hurts now, I see the delicate canundrum you guys are in.
hopefully someone is better with words than I to convince you all...

 

[NoblePhilistineFox]

Do you, as a human, know of something that is more evil than raping a woman? If you do, should that be allowed in games as long as we say people under the age of 18 can't play it??

genocide

and yes

And if you think we all just want our rape fantasy fix, you're wrong.

I just don't want to set a precedent that it's suddenly "ok" to ban a game.

Once you can ban a game, you can technically ban any game. The next time some controversial game comes, they can just say "Hey, well we banned that game, we can ban this one too because we don't like it."

Allow the people to decide what they want to buy. If it bothers you, do not associate with those people.

someone found the right words ^_^
and on the same page the post took me, must be fate.
I like you
*hug*

to Sober Thal
its about choice, not control.

 

[Your once and future Fanboy]

one thing they dont think about here in the west, is that Rape hentai and Doujinshi are usually directed and mostly bought by FEMALEs in Japan.
and its more about feeling helpless to avoid the pleasure (if that makes sense). not about the oppression of the woman.

Its almost like Yaoi(gay porn) in the way that its more directed towards a female audience than gay people.

 

[Altorin]

one thing they dont think about here in the west, is that Rape hentai and Doujinshi are usually directed and mostly bought by FEMALEs in Japan.
and its more about feeling helpless to avoid the pleasure (if that makes sense). not about the oppression of the woman.

Its almost like Yaoi(gay porn) in the way that its more directed towards a female audience than gay people.

Don't Feed the Yaoi Guai

HOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWL!!

 

[incal11]

I'm confused. This seems to be turning into an argument of 'rape is bad, and so is murder.' I'm guessing we're arguing over whether or not Japan's supposedly squeaky-clean crime slate concerning rape is accurate, given the cultural influence that discourages the reporting of rape cases. I suppose the culture is to blame for a small number of unreported rape cases, but the same could be said of hate crimes down south, or illegal marijuana out west.

Yes it's hard to keep this kind of conversation on it's rails.
This came up because one of the best argument against censorship is that Japan has a very low rate of sex crime despite, or perhaps because of, their high tolerance of Hentai; compared to especially prudish countries (overall) like the US.

The pro-censorships try to dismiss this argument with half-truths like "most rapes in Japan are not reported because it is so shameful".
While I'm at it...

noproofnoproofnoproof

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php

 

[sockpuppet]

I'm confused. This seems to be turning into an argument of 'rape is bad, and so is murder.' I'm guessing we're arguing over whether or not Japan's supposedly squeaky-clean crime slate concerning rape is accurate, given the cultural influence that discourages the reporting of rape cases. I suppose the culture is to blame for a small number of unreported rape cases, but the same could be said of hate crimes down south, or illegal marijuana out west.

Yes it's hard to keep this kind of conversation on it's rails.
This came up because one of the best argument against censorship is that Japan has a very low rate of sex crime despite, or perhaps because of, their high tolerance of Hentai; compared to especially prudish countries (overall) like the US.

The pro-censorships try to dismiss this argument with half-truths like "most rapes in Japan are not reported because it is so shameful".
While I'm at it...

noproofnoproofnoproof

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php

Not gonna lie, I lol'd at the 'noproofnoproofnoproof' quote. (Although it does feel strange to me; posting with and arguing against the editors and authors of this very site...just something that gave me a shiver for a moment ^_^ And that study is one that I hadn't heard of before, thanks for linking it.

 

[reciprocal]

Also, insisting that most rapes in Japan are unreported because of the great shame they bring there is not a valid argument.
Serious studies do prove that many rapes are unreported everywhere ; don't think women are less ashamed of being raped because thei're not japanese.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Personally I find this whole "shuned by the whole family" shtick doubtful.

Banning videogames about rape sounds like a good idea. Here's why it's not.

If you are still interested by the subject after writing this article you could go there.
http://yestofreedom.org/

Rape carries with it a deep sense of cultural shame everywhere, not just Japan - I certainly agree. But Japan is a very patriarchal society, and a society very heavily based around the idea of saving face, etc.

If it weren't a problem at all, then why are there separate women-only train cars to help prevent subway molestation?

I'm going to nitpick a few sentences to argue. If they are taken out of context I apologise. I'm also a little tired from work so I apologise if my research is not that in-depth.

First of all, there's a big article in the link below:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html

Now there's a few conclusions that were derived from the article:
1) Reporting of rape HAS increased in Japan in recent years
2) Even so there is still a flatline or downward trend with regards to rape incidences
3) There is little evidence to show that the Japanese people take rape as a crime less seriously than, say, an American or Australian.

This means that even if you want to question to rate at which sexual crimes are reported between different countries, you cannot deny that things such as "loli manga" and "rape games" have had little or no effect on the population of japan given the meteoric rise in distribution in recent times.

Consider also the previous posts that show studies where distribution of pornography have had either no effect or a effectively reduced the number of rape cases in other countries.

There just isn't sufficient statistical evidence to show that these items have a negative impact on the Japanese people. At worst it has a neutral effect. There are so many other factors involved that may have a dramatic effect but I believe treating Rapelay as a scapegoat is delusional and almost criminal as it prevents the more pertinent factors to be addressed.

Now as to the train comment: I won't deny that they may have been started up as a way to stop molestation at first. However the argument that they still exist today does not entail that women in the other carriages will definitely be raped either. It has as much weight as me saying that women-only gyms exist to prevent the members from being raped.

Consider how often trains are used in Japan compared to cars, etc. Think about how crowded they get during peak hour. Ask yourself this: isn't it a great idea that the train service people provide a car where the work lady need not be sandwiched between two or more men on the way home, regardless of whether or not they are molesting her?

Come on. It's not like Japanese women are forced to wear a burqa so as to prevent men from being sexually attracted to them.

 

[John Funk]

I'm confused. This seems to be turning into an argument of 'rape is bad, and so is murder.' I'm guessing we're arguing over whether or not Japan's supposedly squeaky-clean crime slate concerning rape is accurate, given the cultural influence that discourages the reporting of rape cases. I suppose the culture is to blame for a small number of unreported rape cases, but the same could be said of hate crimes down south, or illegal marijuana out west.

Yes it's hard to keep this kind of conversation on it's rails.
This came up because one of the best argument against censorship is that Japan has a very low rate of sex crime despite, or perhaps because of, their high tolerance of Hentai; compared to especially prudish countries (overall) like the US.

The pro-censorships try to dismiss this argument with half-truths like "most rapes in Japan are not reported because it is so shameful".
While I'm at it...

noproofnoproofnoproof

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php

Please don't - for even a second - confuse my stance with being pro-censorship. I believe that RapeLay has every right to exist as a game.

I just think that portraying Japan as an enlightened country where nothing is wrong ever is a horribly, horribly misguided aim, and that its "low rape rate" really shouldn't be used as evidence.

 

[cabalistics]

It's funny but there seems to have been rape before this awful game in fact there have been mass rapes, rape camps, rape gangs all long before this game and there still are in countries where I would'nt say you have a lot of people playing games.

I said the same thing last time this games was mentioned,every time this games get's into the news thousands of torrents are fired up to check it out

 

[JupiterBase]

NO PUNY FLESH CAN HOLD HIS PENIS

I laughed so hard, man so hard.

 

[Andy Chalk]

I think it should be banned because rape is worse than a 'death' no matter how bloody, no matter what household appliance is used, no matter the context of dieing used in any other video game I can think of

I've actually run into that argument before, that rape is somehow "worse" than death. I'll say now what I said then: It's a ridiculous statement. Go find some rape victims and ask them if, having survived the experience, they'd now rather be dead. Get back to me at your convenience.

As far as the comment about "men don't get raped," I take it you've never spent any time in prison, particularly in the southern hemisphere.

But again, this isn't especially relevant, because we're not talking about rape. We're talking about a videogame and essential freedoms of expression.