Mafia II Accused of Racism, Take-Two Responds

tendo82

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Nov 30, 2007
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Two words for Unico: Jersey Shore.

They've got much bigger problems on their hands, by the names of Snooki and The Situation, than a little mob game.

Also, since when are people of Mediterranean descent a race? I forgot about how Italian immigrants weren't allowed to eat at the same lunch counters as the rest of us in the 60's because they had Roman noses.
 

mayney93

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Aug 3, 2009
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cough Godfather cough, watch those 3 films, then complain whose being racist or whose being historicity correct
 

DarkPanda XIII

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Mmm..didn't know there was a group trying to help the Italian Americans...odd.

Seems like anytime a game makes something, it at least has a chance of being good if you insult one help-group. Odd, yes?
 

Falseprophet

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Jan 13, 2009
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I'm Italian-Canadian, and people like DiMina always make me laugh. We're one of the most successful immigrant groups there is, and people like the Unico here still want to cry oppression.

(One historical note: in the 1940s, there was also still a substantial Jewish presence in the American Mafia, but this declined sharply by the 50s.)

I admit to being irritated when Italian characters are only introduced to be criminals (one of the reasons I love, love, love Assassin's Creed II), since there's still a common mindset in North American fiction that unless you're planning on making a character's race/ethnicity/religion relevant to the plot--or used for a colourful stereotype--you default to a WASP. But that's definitely changing for the better. Ironically, The Sopranos is a good example, since in addition to the mobsters, most of the politicians and law enforcement were also Italian-Americans.
 

the December King

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Brnin8 said:
I agree completely with final paragraph, but I do find something odd here... If they don't want Italian-Americans to be defamed, then why don't they target The Jersey Shore?
Agreed- I'm sure Jersey Shore is setting a wonderful bar for Italian-American youth.

Won't someone PLEASE think of the children.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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itf cho said:
Update: I've since been informed that we are no longer allowed to pick on the Nazis anymore either. Apparently, France is objecting due to the fact that most WWII games depict them in a bad light as well.

According to the assistant to the French Minister of Culture, a Mr. Francoise DeHarve, the Sub Asst. Minister of Gaming Entertainment, "We demand that all future games based on WWII be depicted outside the territorial borders of France, or of her colonies at the outbreak of hostilities. We maintain that these games which are based inside of our prestigious country's borders do not depict France in a favorable light. Henceforth,companies that release games that do show depictions of Nazis occupying French soil will be brought to litigation at our earliest convenience."
Do you have any kind of link on this one?

Honestly it would not surprise me for reasons I'm not going to get into, but I'd be very interested in seeing a situation where French authorities actually said that to the mainstream media. If so it says a lot about our media spin that it's not getting more mainstream coverage.

Assuming your not joking of course.
 

hyperdrachen

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Jan 1, 2008
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I like how having a character that is anything other than a heritageless white boy involved in anything negative becomes a grand statement encompassing all members of his/her ethnic group, and suggesting that they are all no good _____. Sure this particular one is made sillier by the fact that organized crime typically has racism involved, as in you can't be a member of the gang if you don't match the ethnicity.

This guy should be more concerned with the Jersey Shore. Theres some pretty sad examples of itallian-americans in that show, combine that with the fact most of the audience is dumb enough to apply what they "learn" as a generalization toward itallians-americans.
Prophetic Heresy said:
All Unico is saying is that maybe some Italian-Americans might react a bit...strongly to his game. Maybe they might go out and show their appreciation by getting Zelnick a nice new pair of concrete shoes.
ah man now you've done it. It would be most unfortunate if you were to wake up to find the head of your beatiful wife and daughter, at the foot of your bed.
 

Sovvolf

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Okay, I'm sure I can't say anything here that hasn't already been said in the last four pages. However I would like to note that in the demo your against the Irish mob with the looks of things... So really, the Italian Americans aren't being singled out at all. I do wish organisations would play the games first before posting about how offended they are.
 

Keava

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Mar 1, 2010
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Seems like another organization that was late for initial "political correctness" bandwagon and tries to make up for it will rather silly claims. The world is really getting more and more absurd thanks to such 'noble' actions. I wonder did they also wanted to ban Godfather for being racist...
Oh well, things some will do for attention and maybe a few more bucks int heir pockets if they get lucky.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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I did a rant earlier about how ridiculous this entire thing is, and the perils of historical reinventionism. I wanted to make two additional points however that I think are relevent:


#1: I don't agree with what they are demanding as you know, but at the same time I can understand why they are angry and ashamed. What's more the problem is that the perception of Italians as criminals does affect their employment prospects and such. When your dealing with an organization that is known to control entire neighborhoods and be viewed to some extent as folk heroes and men of respect to their communities, one becomes nervous in dealing with anyone they might be able to get their fingers into. Sure, you have no fear hiring some ordinary Italian guy because he's going to break your kneecaps, but a lot of people are going to have concerns that a guy from an ethnic Italian community might run into money trouble with the wrong people, and then be made to rob you in order to pay off their debt.

Let's say you run a warehouse, or a store with a lot of inventory in storage. You hire Luigi to work at your store, Luigi winds up owing some wiseguy a bunch of money, next thing you know boxes start to go missing from your warehouse. Luigi being less worried about being fired or spending a bit of time in jail than not being able to pay a wiseguy. This could happen to anyone, but it's more likely for an Italian guy from an ethnic neighborhood where these guys are known to operate. Not to mention the fact that if the business has something the Mafia really wants, they can find ways to apply pressure to someone on the inside without them being a member. That could also be peer pressure as well, I mean if Mr. Wiseguy paid off a family member's medical expenses as a white knight at the time (but also so he could go after a favor if he needed it), then Luigi might very well feel pressured or obligated.


This is simplistic, and as far as it goes this is not unrealistic. The problem of course coming about for all of the Italians who might not be from long-term Italian neighborhoods, or never wind up being pressured by the Mafia or whatever.

As open minded as a lot of us might want to think we are, if you were running a business hiring Luigi might give you second thoughts due to you considering the potential risks higher. A lot of Italian American groups needless to say don't like this.

Of course I am one of those who holds to a "correct" definition of racism, as the belief in a group's inherant superiority or inferiority compared to another group (or everyone in general). I don't think Italians are discriminated against on racial grounds, nobody I've run into thinks they are inferior, it's all sociological and based on the kind of things I mentioned above and have been talked about elsewhere in this thread.

Basically while I disagree with what they are trying to do, I do understand why, and feel some sympathy for them and their situation. Since there isn't any real racism involved, enforced ignorance about things like The Mafia and the like could very well improve things for a lot of Italians in general.


#2: I trust the validity of these complaints largely because of the fact that I've seen it before with other things like "The Sopranos", hence my first post before this one.

I will however point out that this campaign is being done stupidly, and if it was another group I'd suspect this was being done to generate hype for the game.

I say this because anyone who pays attention would notice that the best time to kill a game with contreversy is during pre-production. A game that is right about to be released has had millions upon millions of dollars spent on it. Even if reviled, at that point the producers relly have no choice except to stick it on the market and hope it recoups some of their losses. Unless legally forced to do so, they aren't going to just throw all that money away and not release the product.

As much as I hated what happened, I look at things like the "Seven Days In Fallujah" game (I have no idea if anyone else ever picked it up). That games was stopped because people attacked it before anyone had actually invested a ton of money in it (as I understand things). The potential contreversy being weighed against the cost and sales. Once the game is a month or two from release it's way too late to do anything practical.

On the other hand people, especially gamers, have been known to eat up contreversy. If it was anything else I'd suspect this would be an offhanded attempt at product promotion.

-

Oh and I will also say that from what I've seen, groups like this probably would have gone after a lot of the other Mafia stuff out there, but there haven't always been organizations with the abillity to make themselves heard. What's more nobody has the resources to go after everything that can be produced in the media, battles have to be picked and chosen.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Brnin8 said:
I agree completely with final paragraph, but I do find something odd here... If they don't want Italian-Americans to be defamed, then why don't they target The Jersey Shore?
They do (if someone else hasn't mentioned it)

Covered in the wiki link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Shore_(TV_series)

Several similar groups have attacked it, and done so sufficiently to get sponsors to pull out. The game industry however could stand to take some lessons from MTV who have stuck to their guns despite the contreversy.

Right or wrong, free speech is free speech, and really it doesn't seem like the people in this show are any worse than those in any other MTV reality show, they simply picked a theme (so to speak). If MTV was to pick any group from Asians, to Wasps, to Latinos, or whatever else I can guarantee you'd see pretty much all the same kinds of stuff since the whole idea is to create and record insanity.
 

lynxus

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I wonder if they realize how silly this makes them look. It´s not the first time anti-racism organizations complain about historical events illustrated in movies, games and the like, and it always makes me look at them and shake my head.

If we were speaking about a person, I´d say: get laid. :)
 

poiuppx

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itf cho said:
Sorry, Mr. Goldman - but you got scooped. There is already a lengthy thread on this exact topic somewhere in the community forums. :)

However, apparently the only group it's okay to 'pick on' now is the Nazis. We usually don't hear many people getting upset when another WWII shooter comes out, and we're plinking Hitler's goons.
I complain, chiefly because I'd like to see more games set in wars OTHER than freaking WWII. Humanity is very very good at having wars; can't we give credit to some of the other ones? Where's my WWI first person shooter from a major label studio? That's a Call of Duty I'd respond to!

OT, this is just idiotic. If you're that worried about public perception of the people you suppossedly represent, go do good in the community. Help people. Don't try to kick a form of entertainment in the crotch. Because even if this HAD worked, you know what, Unico? We'd now have the stereotype of modern Italian-Americans as bitter, unrealistic Stop Having Fun Guys. That's probably not the image you wanted to portray either.

In short, grow a pair and do good for the world instead of trying to whitewash it. Light a candle versus cursing the darkness, that whole malarky.
 

The Big Eye

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Aug 19, 2009
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My guess is Unico just has a form letter they send to anyone making a game/book/film/tv show that sounds vaguely Italian and/or violent.
 

captaincabbage

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The Undoer said:
I played the Demo and didn't go thinking "ZOMG MUST KILL PEOPLE" or "ITALIANZ ARE ALL CRIMINULZ".

Why can't people accept that most of us are not that dumb...
Most of us.
 

itf cho

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Therumancer said:
itf cho said:
Update: I've since been informed that we are no longer allowed to pick on the Nazis anymore either. Apparently, France is objecting due to the fact that most WWII games depict them in a bad light as well.

According to the assistant to the French Minister of Culture, a Mr. Francoise DeHarve, the Sub Asst. Minister of Gaming Entertainment, "We demand that all future games based on WWII be depicted outside the territorial borders of France, or of her colonies at the outbreak of hostilities. We maintain that these games which are based inside of our prestigious country's borders do not depict France in a favorable light. Henceforth,companies that release games that do show depictions of Nazis occupying French soil will be brought to litigation at our earliest convenience."
Do you have any kind of link on this one?

Honestly it would not surprise me for reasons I'm not going to get into, but I'd be very interested in seeing a situation where French authorities actually said that to the mainstream media. If so it says a lot about our media spin that it's not getting more mainstream coverage.

Assuming your not joking of course.
Well, thank you. I shall take that as a compliment that you asked for a link to this story. However, I am unable to provide one, as I wrote the above with tongue firmly in cheek.
 

antipunt

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This is absolutely ridiculous and double-standard-ish.

Mafia 2 racist? Seriously, cry more... it's just SUCH a stretch