Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[Lightspeaker]

Rape of women by men is a really common crime. Rape of men by women is one of the least common crimes. That's usually the answer you'll get from most people. And they'd be right.

Because someone is a minority (in this case a male rape victim) it means they don't matter then? Okay then.

Frankly I think your attitude of "male issues don't matter" is rather sexist honestly. And the fact that you think that people have difficulty talking about their issues is just a personal thing and not societal pressure is just mind boggling.

 

[The Lunatic]

If you mention any of the issues in the OP you will be regarded as one of the following by the majority of people:


Weak.

A Crazed MRA.

A Misogynist.


The problem is, especially on the internet is that any area in which men can discuss issues that affect men is almost immediately regarded as being some sort of "Anti-feminist" hate group, a bunch of "Beta faggots" and so on.

Stuff like "The Red Pill", as much as I don't really like the idea, is regarded as all of the above, yet if you flip the genders, it's the kind of thing that would probably be cheered as "Woman power".

 

[CrystalShadow]

Yeah, on a tangent, I always found the 'well other people have it worse!' reply you get so easily from people so frustrating.

Like other people in the world having it worse somehow negates your own problems?

Why is this a thing exactly?
"I am totally stressed out because I'm living on borrowed money just to feed myself and keep a roof over my head, and can't find a solution"

"oh yeah? Well, some people don't even have food, or a place to sleep, so you're lucky!"

In other words, stop complaining because your problems aren't as big as those of some random person neither of you know somewhere else.
Therefore, since your problems aren't the biggest that could possibly be, I don't need to care in the slightest, and you just need to shut up.

Yeah. Fun. -_-

 

[mad825]

And it's still slut shamming, saying that it gets worse because of how the woman was dressed is still saying that the woman's suffering is coming from what she wore.

People are judged on the clothes they wear, people are stereotyped by others by their appearance, it's a form of identity. You have an effect on other people.

Again, I've never stated that woman's suffering is coming from what she wore. I'm saying it compounds to the problem and it is very situational, do you understand? It is not an absolutist statement. It is adding fuel to the fire, you understand that idiom?

If you're new to this world, your life and your death is simply a probability labyrinth. The choices that you make effects that probability.

 

[Something Amyss]

It reeks of insincerity. If the only time people bring up men's issues is as a counter to "feminism," they don't behave in a way that makes me think they actually care.

A lot of the MRAs I come across are the first to call me a **** or tell me to get raped. I don't think they're really interested in men's rights.

Like other people in the world having it worse somehow negates your own problems?

And, again, show me someone who doesn't complain about their own problems, so this sort of argument also rings hollow.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you mention any of the issues in the OP you will be regarded as one of the following by the majority of people:


Weak.

A Crazed MRA.

A Misogynist.

I'm curious, which one do you think I get labeled? Because I do talk about these. The ironic thing is that when they're not used as a counter-argument against women, the people who are so gung ho to talk about them go away really fast.

 

[CrystalShadow]

It reeks of insincerity. If the only time people bring up men's issues is as a counter to "feminism," they don't behave in a way that makes me think they actually care.

A lot of the MRAs I come across are the first to call me a **** or tell me to get raped. I don't think they're really interested in men's rights.

Like other people in the world having it worse somehow negates your own problems?

And, again, show me someone who doesn't complain about their own problems, so this sort of argument also rings hollow.

It's a super-common counter-response to anyone that says they are having issues.

A common way of being incredibly dismissive.
'first world problems' is an extreme form of it.

It happens so much you'd wonder why people feel they need to hide behind it.
Might as well just say you don't care, it'd be more honest.

 

[Lightspeaker]

It reeks of insincerity. If the only time people bring up men's issues is as a counter to "feminism," they don't behave in a way that makes me think they actually care.

I think you missed the part where the point being made by several people is that the reason it only ever comes up that time is because its not "socially acceptable" to bring it up at any other time. It comes up then out of a combination of frustration and helplessness at being silenced.

As someone who had therapy for clinically diagnosed depressing and anxiety I'm actually acutely familiar with that exact feeling. There is a societal bias against discussing it because its seen as a shameful thing, or the punchline to a joke in some cases. There are a lot of parallels from what I've seen in this thread, frankly.

 

[Animyr]

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up?

Because not even other men care about the problems men face (speaking generally, of course). They don't find them all that threatening or troubling, really. They just want others--usually women--to stop complaining. Things are fine the way they are! Look at us men; we have it sooo baaad--as bad if not worse then you--and we're cool with things. Therefore you have no excuse to complain.

It's a rhetorical strategy more than a genuine lament.

Because men inherently are not big complainers, we deal with our problems and keep them OUR problems for the most part.

Women complain CONSTANTLY, so in order to counter them, we finally let out a big sigh and explain that no, you don't have it worse, in fact, you have it the best, stfu already.

Case in point.

 

[Ryan Minns]

I see it brought up often but simply ignored or even attacked.

 

[The Lunatic]

I'm curious, which one do you think I get labeled? Because I do talk about these. The ironic thing is that when they're not used as a counter-argument against women, the people who are so gung ho to talk about them go away really fast.

Well, I know more about you off-hand as I've shared a forum with you for... However long.

So, I don't know really. I don't really think I'd accuse you of being any of those, but, I don't really accuse people of being those things to begin with.

As for myself, I've tried to talk about mental health issues that affect men, however, upon doing so, I was told that it's "Not a gender issue" and the fact men were committing suicide at so much of a higher rate than women was "Not important" and was accused of, in my focus on the man's side of thing, of belittling the experience that women go through, despite making no real mention of women in general.


So, I just kinda gave up on it. That combined with my own working through the system makes things a bit tiresome.

I kinda think it's a lost cause, so, I don't really bother.

 

[CeeBod]

possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype, a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay

I have to ask, is this really still a thing? I know kids are generally stupid, and therefore playground insults probably haven't moved on much since I left school, but my experience in the UK is that the only people still bothered by the existance of homosexuality are generally either right wing extremist groups, fundamentalist religeous types or the old and unreformed (racism/sexism and all other isms seems to be perfectly acceptable for the over 60s for some reason). I can only think of one friend of mine that has ever actually looked worried about the prospect of going drinking in Manchester's gay village (maybe he did think you could actually catch the gay!) and we went to school over 25 years ago, so we're fast approaching the age where we're allowed to be unreformed old gits!

Is it a UK/US difference? Is it worse now with social media pressures, etc? Am I rambling again?

 

[Something Amyss]

'first world problems' is an extreme form of it.

First World Problems was intended to be a self-referential jab. It's sort of a shame that was lost in the mix. I'm a fan of self-deprecating humour. It gets me through.

I think you missed the part where the point being made by several people is that the reason it only ever comes up that time is because its not "socially acceptable" to bring it up at any other time.

Please don't speak for me. I didn't miss the point, forget or ignore anything. I reject the premise. People keep claiming it, and they can claim it all they want.

So, I don't know really. I don't really think I'd accuse you of being any of those, but, I don't really accuse people of being those things to begin with.

The correct answer is "none of the above." Weirdly enough, though, rather than getting support from men or the MRAs specifically, I get yelled at because I'm a goddamned feminazi mangina ****. Oddly enough, I would think those would be the people I'd want agreeing with me if I were in this position.

It's hard to view this as anything other than a contrarian argument.

But the reality is, this site had several "feminists" on it who were more than happy to talk about men's issues. And they were driven off the site in the great SJW purge of 2014. At least one of them went so far as to have their account deleted.

The reality is, feminists have been bringing up equality issues for decades and been scoffed at. The MRM says it wants draft equality, but has scoffed at NOW. NOW made draft equality an issue in 1980--35 years ago. The current lawsuit that may end up changing the way SS operates is from a woman who wants to be treated equally. This could have the impact of addressing an MRA talking point--and she's been shit on for it. Hell, women have fought to be in frontline combat for decades and been met with resistence by the same organisations who claim the military is sexist against men.

But we're not being called misogynists. or MRAs. At least, not most of us.

Oh, and just watch what happens when the phrase "toxic masculinity," which is exactly what's being described in this thread, is brought up.

 

[Eddie the head]

Not really. I remember see just the opposite on this sight a few times in fact. Someone made a thread about a guy having to deal with false rape claims, and every other comment was about how actual rape is more common. Someone talked about how there's no battered men's shelters every replay to that guy was about how battered women's shelters are more important.

My guess is that you're looking for that, and you know what they say? Life is like a box of chocolates you're only going to remember the taste of coconut.

 

[Aesir23]

possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype, a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay

I have to ask, is this really still a thing? I know kids are generally stupid, and therefore playground insults probably haven't moved on much since I left school, but my experience in the UK is that the only people still bothered by the existance of homosexuality are generally either right wing extremist groups, fundamentalist religeous types or the old and unreformed (racism/sexism and all other isms seems to be perfectly acceptable for the over 60s for some reason). I can only think of one friend of mine that has ever actually looked worried about the prospect of going drinking in Manchester's gay village (maybe he did think you could actually catch the gay!) and we went to school over 25 years ago, so we're fast approaching the age where we're allowed to be unreformed old gits!

Is it a UK/US difference? Is it worse now with social media pressures, etc? Am I rambling again?

I apologise for butting in but it does seem to be a UK/NA difference. It's been about a decade since I left school but I remember many boys being downright paranoid about anything that might make them look "gay". I live in Canada so I'm not sure if it's to the same extent in the US but I imagine the differences wouldn't be too severe.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Rape of women by men is a really common crime. Rape of men by women is one of the least common crimes. That's usually the answer you'll get from most people. And they'd be right.

Because someone is a minority (in this case a male rape victim) it means they don't matter then? Okay then.

Come on, don't play that game with me.

What game? That is literally what you said. "Its less common", by definition its a smaller demographic than others. To me you appear to be arguing that its perfectly acceptable for it to be all a big joke as far as society goes, because it effects a smaller number.

If that's not the case then please do go ahead and clarify.

I think you missed the part where the point being made by several people is that the reason it only ever comes up that time is because its not "socially acceptable" to bring it up at any other time.

Please don't speak for me. I didn't miss the point, forget or ignore anything. I reject the premise. People keep claiming it, and they can claim it all they want.

I'm not 'speaking for you', I'm pointing out something you may have missed if you'd only read the OP. If you want to reject the idea that men have societal expectations that make it difficult to discuss issues because of peer pressure then that's up to you. I mean I disagree, but whatever. *shrug*

possibly being ostracized by our peers if we don't fit into a stupid overly masculine stereotype, a massive stigma against acting feminine lest we be accused of having the gay

I have to ask, is this really still a thing? I know kids are generally stupid, and therefore playground insults probably haven't moved on much since I left school, but my experience in the UK is that the only people still bothered by the existance of homosexuality are generally either right wing extremist groups, fundamentalist religeous types or the old and unreformed (racism/sexism and all other isms seems to be perfectly acceptable for the over 60s for some reason). I can only think of one friend of mine that has ever actually looked worried about the prospect of going drinking in Manchester's gay village (maybe he did think you could actually catch the gay!) and we went to school over 25 years ago, so we're fast approaching the age where we're allowed to be unreformed old gits!

Is it a UK/US difference? Is it worse now with social media pressures, etc? Am I rambling again?

I apologise for butting in but it does seem to be a UK/NA difference. It's been about a decade since I left school but I remember many boys being downright paranoid about anything that might make them look "gay". I live in Canada so I'm not sure if it's to the same extent in the US but I imagine the differences wouldn't be too severe.

I think CeeBod is mainly referring to outside of school. When you're an asshole teenager in secondary school I think its still a bit of a thing over here in the UK, at least in the early teens. Outside of that nobody I know gives a damn about whether someone is gay or looks gay or not apart from the small groups mentioned.


Edit: Actually this is all getting rather tiresome. There appears to be quite a few people who outright seem to be denying that a group of people could possibly have important issues and could have difficulty expressing those in society because of societal expectations upon them. To me, that just appears to be a common-sense issue of "of course they do, everyone does" and frankly I can't see that discussion going anywhere good. So I'll take my leave. Have a good day.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Eh, you posted as I submitted that edit so I guess I'll finish with this instead.

Rape of women by men is a really common crime. Rape of men by women is one of the least common crimes. That's usually the answer you'll get from most people. And they'd be right.

Because someone is a minority (in this case a male rape victim) it means they don't matter then? Okay then.

Come on, don't play that game with me.

What game? That is literally what you said. "Its less common", by definition its a smaller demographic than others. To me you appear to be arguing that its perfectly acceptable for it to be all a big joke as far as society goes, because it effects a smaller number.

If that's not the case then please do go ahead and clarify.

You then equated less common with "Don't matter" and claimed that I said male issues don't matter.

That game.

In which case my initial point still stands and I really don't know where you're going with the "less common" argument. Just because its less common for one group doesn't make it acceptable. Nor does it make it acceptable for it to so consistently be the punchline of a joke or a source of 'celebration' (in a "good for him!" way).

Frankly I'm unsure where you're trying to go with the "its less common" argument. But that doesn't matter much now. Have a nice day.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yeah, it's always bothered me that the male problems are generally only saved as ammo for "special occasions" like any problem concerning women. Not just feminism, and stuff, but representation, and when they try and do something. Basically any time anyone ever complains about anything related to women. I see it a lot when the issue of women's representation in videogames pops up. I've seen it get so bad as to totally derail things.

If it really bothers them, they should do something about it. There's gotta be a breaking point where the people who refuse to complain can't take it anymore, and will actually try to solve their problems.

What? Do they want the vocal people to champion them and ignore their own problems, or something?
As much as I hate it, people can't fight on every front and solve every problem all at once. It takes passion, and intensity to really help the fight, and that's generally reserved to what's near and dear to them.
In the long run, it's possible that solving the problem the complainers have might have a ripple effect, and solve male problems, but people are short sighted, maybe?
It's also kinda hard to fight for people that really wouldn't do the same, or worse, be part of the problem in fighting the process in the first place.
It's not like we don't care about other problems, it's that we feel we have key issues to deal with first.
One problem doesn't counter the other, either. It doesn't make it go away or be any less important.

Maybe there's jealousy involved towards the vocal people that can at least speak up about their own problems without having to jump on others complaining about their own problems? That these talks persist despite the sort of stuff that generally seems to shut down male problems?

The internet is an ideal place to talk about it, and like a lot of the people complaining about women problems, people concerned with male problems must be persistent, and strong, and keep at it as well. They can't let themselves be shut down. I mean it's a universal problem. People try to shut down concerns over women's issues a lot, but that doesn't really stop people from talking about them, so why should it be any different for male problems?

/sleepy rant

 

[Dragonlayer]

Because, as was proven in this thread within thirty minutes of the original post, nobody cares in the slightest about problems and solutions in any social justice issue online, they just want to butt heads with the eternal opposition and win arguments.

Not really. I remember see just the opposite on this sight a few times in fact. Someone made a thread about a guy having to deal with false rape claims, and every other comment was about how actual rape is more common. Someone talked about how there's no battered men's shelters every replay to that guy was about how battered women's shelters are more important.

My guess is that you're looking for that, and you know what they say? Life is like a box of chocolates you're only going to remember the taste of coconut.

Which goes with my point quite nicely. Also, for all the presumably male individuals who do complain on this site about male problems, its very rare for an actual male problem help thread to appear and when it does, it lasts for maybe two, three pages at best. Of course, that could be because everyone goes into those threads simply to say "NU UH! MY SIDE HAS IT WORSE!".

 

[Zacharious-khan]

I think a lot of the issue is that rightly, men feel like we should just deal with our problems. Personally i don't like to burden anyone else with any of my problems because if I have the capacity to deal I feel almost morally that I must. Probably all that shonnen manga.

Feminism has basically served it's purpose (in the first world) and been taken over by vocal anti-males and greedy self-serving women.

That is not remotely true.

It's almost entirely true.