Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[pure.Wasted]

If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

I respectfully disagree.

A story's conclusion must fit stylistically with the rest of its contents. Mass Effect is known neither for its plot twists nor for its subtlety. Combining these two concepts, alien to the series, at the very last second to change everything we know is not mastery at all, even if it is deliberate; it is disingenuous and incoherent.

 

[Vault101]

snip
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says who?

isnt that the point of a twist? it has to be unexpected

I think it would be mindblowing..and it would fit perfectly

thats the Idea..indoctrination is not somthing your aware of it..its subtle and gradual...the closest thing would be the major twist of Bioshock...its that "breaking the fourth wall" type twist, itd alwyas been a mojor thing int he series..who are we to think shepard is imune? shepards good but not that good

if you think abut it indoctrination is one of the biggest weopons used by the reapers, it would make sense that it would be somthing for shepard to overcome...granted its a bit underhanded since the player probably has no way of knowing, and if they did "defeat" indoctrination (choosing destructing) it would have been unintentional...but then thats the beuty of it..to "break free" is to do somthing out of charachter (if your playing paragon) to look at the reaper starchild and think "fuck you and your fucking choices"...in fact up untill this point being renegade has been a handicap...but being renegade may be ones saving grace..(if were assuming its true)

 

[Avalanche91]

Lets just wait for the extended dlc and see that Bioware completly dropped the ball, and we are entitled whining fans for not understanding. Can't wait to see how that turns out.

Part of me thinks Bioware actually purposely hid hints toward Shepard's indoctrination, even if they didn't go with that ending. Maybe it was the original plan.

 

[squid5580]

Umm I could be way off here (and I am not going to watch a 90 minute video on it) but doesn't the very last scene (the one after the credits) invalidate the whole theory?

the "tell us abotut he shepard grandpa" thing?

as I said, I think IT is saying that the ending is still unfinished..shepard is yet to "eake up" and fishing off the reapers for real

So that would mean that this story goes from a dream to a fast forward of a distant future then back to where the events of the dream was just that and didn't really happen. Only for something else to happen? And this is supposed to make it better?

I am going to stick with the Grampa theory. He was telling a story to his grandson the entire series. Some of the details may have been exaggerated (or just wrong) but dammit it is his story and he had to walk 300 miles in blizzards uphill both ways so I can forgive his trangressions.

from what we can tell granpa is telling this story a long time in the future, and its so vauge that it does really affect anything

like I said from the moment shepard gets hit by the beam (to the moment he/she wakes up at the end of destructin) we could assume he/she is really lying where he/she fell in this reaper-fever dream..whats going on during that time or after we don't know...

WHATEVER happens...face vaule or not many many years in the future grandpa is telling little billy about how shepard defeated the reapers

so we know WAHTEVER happned shepard defeated the reapers, but thats beside the point

the point is no one gives a shit abotu grandpa buzz aldrin and little billy because WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT HEPPNED TO SHEPARD AND ALL HIS/HER FREINDS....and as I said, they are too far in the future to be worth worrying about

But that is the point. Mass Effect is Grampa's story. No one knows or even should know what happened there. Shepard is long dead. No one who survived was there. There is no one who can historically document what happened between the beam to the end. And that 1 scene seals it. We don't know what happened. We will never know what really happened. We can speculate on if he/she was indoctrinated or if he/she met with flying watermelons that make fish noises who helped defeat the reapers. But we can't say for sure one way or the other. It is left up to us the audience to draw their own conclusions.

The lack of any story about the survivors is what disappointed me with the ending.

 

[pure.Wasted]

isnt that the point of a twist? it has to be unexpected

Unexpected, yes. Random [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShockingSwerve], no.

Good plot twists are not made out of magic, they are made out of meticulous foreshadowing [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foreshadowing], Chekhov's guns [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun], stylistic, and thematic unity.

There has been no legitimate, unquestionable foreshadowing of Shepard's mind being tampered with. Nothing "went off" during the ending. We weren't reminded of that one time Shepard spent 5 seconds next to a Reaper alone, where the Reaper was able to gain control of him. The entire world of Mass Effect outside of that one room stopped existing.

I think it would be mindblowing..and it would fit perfectly

It would not be "mindblowing" because Mass Effect did not set itself up for that kind of ending. People watching The Sixth Sense understood full well that something strane was going on, they simply did not understand what. NOBODY played Mass Effect thinking "something weird's going on, I can't quite put my finger on it." You cannot just pull these things out of the air, or a huge chunk of your audience is simply not going to appreciate your ending on the terms you like. That's not their fault. You, as a writer, have to prep them. You have to goad them. Manipulate them. Get them exactly where you want them, and then spring the trap.

Stylistically, Mass Effect has no history of (non-emotional) manipualting. The biggest plot twist they've had to date was The Illusive Man turning out to be a bad guy. Surprise!!! Except we knew that from the moment he appeared in ME2. The game knew that we knew that, and gave us the option of telling him just how much we trusted him. In the first scene.

Thematically, Mass Effect is not (and has never been) about how we shouldn't trust our senses, how we never know what's real and what isn't, how our control over reality is slipping daily. These are themes alien to the franchise, paid lip service by SOME resolutions of the Saren Arterius fight, SOME resolutions of the Illusive Man confrontation, and SOME resolutions of the confrontation with Liara's mom. Thassit.

I mean, people say that it's not fair to boil the series' themes down to "organics vs. Geth," but that's a hundred times more legitimate an idea to boil the series down to than anything the Indoctrination Theory might suggest. At least it has actually been, y'know, brought up. Treated as something important.

thats the Idea..indoctrination is not somthing your aware of it..its subtle and gradual...the closest thing would be the major twist of Bioshock...its that "breaking the fourth wall" type twist, itd alwyas been a mojor thing int he series..who are we to think shepard is imune? shepards good but not that good

There is a huge, huge difference. The twist in Bioshock was properly set up. You had Atlas talking to you but never making an appearance, already alluding to his untrustworthy nature if you're familiar with that type of trick in narrative; you had the phrase "would you kindly" coming up over and over, that's a Chekhov's Gun, seemingly innocuous but suddenly gaining obvious meaning once the twist is explained; you had the diaries which for a while before the reveal had begun foreshadowing the technology that made all of this possible, with gradually increasing obviousness. And finally, most importantly, it fit. The game was about control. Ryan wanted everyone to be free, Fontaine did not. So when you fought Ryan, you fought against (a warped notion of) freedom. And the game demonstrated just how un-free you really were.

Mass Effect is not about indoctrination. It's not about losing control of your mental faculties. If it's about anything, it's about the relationships you form with people who stand by your side.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

I respectfully disagree.

A story's conclusion must fit stylistically with the rest of its contents. Mass Effect is known neither for its plot twists nor for its subtlety. Combining these two concepts, alien to the series, at the very last second to change everything we know is not mastery at all, even if it is deliberate; it is disingenuous and incoherent.

It's one of those things where we don't really know WHAT their intentions were until we're told. There's so much up in the air right now that any number of theories could be right. So far ALL the antagonists of the game have been Indoctrinated. Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man have had one thing in common, and that's the fact they were Indoctrinated. It's one of the "consistencies" in the series, like punching out al-Jilani.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

I think many would disagree..saying that IT is bad because "its not set up properly" I think its set up just fine throughout ME3 (the kid in particular)

its not pulled out of thin air...pulling it out of thin air would be having Samus Aran show up to resue shepard because "hey! its the dame universe as metroid all of a sudden!"

I dont see it being about themes or anything, no this is just indoctrination, this is just one challenge shepard must overcome, much like saren and the collectors

and since we are seeing things through shepard perspective then we fight indoctrination through shepard perspective

even if your right no one cares....most people think IT would be really cool and that Bioware should run with it, whats the alternative? we know the ending isnt getting re-worked, its just getting "expanded"

 

[Vault101]

It's one of those things where we don't really know WHAT their intentions were until we're told. There's so much up in the air right now that any number of theories could be right. So far ALL the antagonists of the game have been Indoctrinated. Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man have had one thing in common, and that's the fact they were Indoctrinated. It's one of the "consistencies" in the series, like punching out al-Jilani.

I dont think the Illusive man needed to be indoctrianted...when you remove that cerberus troopers helmet for the first time to find him reaper-fied I was surprised and though "mabye cerberus arnt going to play terroriest after all" but no...still as you said it makes sense for consistancy purpose

 

[pure.Wasted]

If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

I respectfully disagree.

A story's conclusion must fit stylistically with the rest of its contents. Mass Effect is known neither for its plot twists nor for its subtlety. Combining these two concepts, alien to the series, at the very last second to change everything we know is not mastery at all, even if it is deliberate; it is disingenuous and incoherent.

It's one of those things where we don't really know WHAT their intentions were until we're told. There's so much up in the air right now that any number of theories could be right. So far ALL the antagonists of the game have been Indoctrinated. Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man have had one thing in common, and that's the fact they were Indoctrinated. It's one of the "consistencies" in the series, like punching out al-Jilani.

The problem is, we know (with variable specificity) how Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man were indoctrinated. It's not a mystery. They all physically came in contact with the Reapers' shells.

Shepard had no such unique opportunity. Every time that Shepard spoke with a Reaper, someone else was with him, and they should be indoctrinated too. In ME1 he had two squadmates with him on Virmire. In ME2 he had two squadmates with him when he retrieved the IFF and when he fought the human Reaper, and the entire ship was exposed to the IFF when it was brought aboard.

I'm not saying it's physically impossible for Bioware to up and say that Sovereign could have gone after all three but FOCUSED on Shepard, maybe to... make sure it stuck. Or maybe because the others didn't matter. Or that the Reapers have new ways of indoctrinating people that we've never even heard of, and they used one of these on Shepard! Off-camera, no less! Between ME1 and ME2. Whatever. It's all absolutely possible.

What I'm saying is this wouldn't be brilliant storytelling. That should have been self-evident from the fact that when people saw the ending, they didn't say "Oooooh, so much suddenly makes sense, it's like all the pieces just fell into place." If it had been a masterful twist, the majority would be saying that.

When's the last time someone said they didn't "get" the Bioshock twist? That was a competently executed plot twist.

 

[pure.Wasted]

I think many would disagree..saying that IT is bad because "its not set up properly" I think its set up just fine throughout ME3 (the kid in particular)

its not pulled out of thin air...pulling it out of thin air would be having Samus Aran show up to resue shepard because "hey! its the dame universe as metroid all of a sudden!"

I dont see it being about themes or anything, no this is just indoctrination, this is just one challenge shepard must overcome, much like saren and the collectors

and since we are seeing things through shepard perspective then we fight indoctrination through shepard perspective

even if your right no one cares....most people think IT would be really cool and that Bioware should run with it, whats the alternative? we know the ending isnt getting re-worked, its just getting "expanded"

"Most people" think that indoctrination is cool?

I would love to see the polls you have backing this up.

 

[Kron_the_mad wants to be deleted]

There are currently three big problems with indoctrination theory:

1. EAoware has dismissed it completely already. They've outright denied that's what they were aiming for with the ending which is a shame because it's the only way to may sense of the garbled mess they've released.

2. Even if it were true, it's still not what was promised and would mean that the game actually managed to ship, not just with a bad ending, but somehow got released without an ending at all. There is still a war to fight after all, the reapers aren't giving up because 1 space Canadian woke up from a bad dream.

3. It simply isn't what was promised. Where are the multiple diverse endings? Where's all the weight from my decisions gone? Why is an annoying glowing kid dictating nonsense at me in a dream sequence?

 

[Bat Vader]

Has Bioware said if the IT theory is false or have they not commented on it? They must know about how big the theory is and if they don't plan on doing anything with it should just say it is false.

 

[Vault101]

"Most people" think that indoctrination is cool?

I would love to see the polls you have backing this up.

...Id say a fair number of fans think ti would be better than taking the ending at face value, weather its true or not...

There are currently three big problems with indoctrination theory:

1. EAoware has dismissed it completely already. They've outright denied that's what they were aiming for with the ending which is a shame because it's the only way to may sense of the garbled mess they've released.

have they?

Has Bioware said if the IT theory is false or have they not commented on it? They must know about how big the theory is and if they don't plan on doing anything with it should just say it is false.

I thourght they were remaining neutral on it...or at least being very vauge, it may not have been their original intention but at this stage I dont think we can completly say what they are planning

EDIT: not saying anything anythign eather way right now would be wise of Bioware

 

[Kron_the_mad wants to be deleted]

There are currently three big problems with indoctrination theory:

1. EAoware has dismissed it completely already. They've outright denied that's what they were aiming for with the ending which is a shame because it's the only way to may sense of the garbled mess they've released.

have they?

Yup it was part of the announcement for the extended cut DLC, along with telling us we still won't be getting the promised diverse endings just an explanation of why they think it all made sense.

 

[Vault101]

Yup it was part of the announcement for the extended cut DLC, along with telling us we still won't be getting the promised diverse endings just an explanation of why they think it all made sense.

sorry to be a pain but links? the thing I read for the extended cut was vauge enough...it besically said add a few cutscenes

without IT I wonder how a few cutscnes are suposed to fix anything

 

[pure.Wasted]

"Most people" think that indoctrination is cool?

I would love to see the polls you have backing this up.

...Id say a fair number of fans think ti would be better than taking the ending at face value, weather its true or not...

Well, that's the problem with using yourself as an example. I could just as well say "and I don't think that's true, I think most people don't like it," and we're left at an impasse.

But I'll make this easy: I agree. On the condition that we get an extended cut from Bioware that explains what the hell happened, where all the foreshadowing we missed was hiding, what precisely happened and why and how and when, it will be a better ending than what we have.

But it won't be brilliant, mindblowing, or genius. That's the key thing here to keep in mind. It won't be great, it won't even be competent, because they had to step back into the ring and, basically, do what a magician is never supposed to do: reveal his secrets.

You can like it, and that's fine! I'm not trying to tell you to stop having fun guyz! just because I'm petty or upset. I like plenty of stuff that wasn't expertly written, and maybe the fact that it's poorly made is part of its charm, or maybe I simply overlook the flaw(s). But there are objective scales on which art can be judged, and the indoctrination ending cannot be made to be mechanically, dramatically competent, because for it to be competent, they would have to change more than the ending, they'd have to change the rest of the game(s) to properly set up this ending.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

ok...I sort of get it

but what would they need to change?

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

The problem is, we know (with variable specificity) how Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man were indoctrinated. It's not a mystery. They all physically came in contact with the Reapers' shells.

Shepard had no such unique opportunity. Every time that Shepard spoke with a Reaper, someone else was with him, and they should be indoctrinated too. In ME1 he had two squadmates with him on Virmire. In ME2 he had two squadmates with him when he retrieved the IFF and when he fought the human Reaper, and the entire ship was exposed to the IFF when it was brought aboard.

I'm not saying it's physically impossible for Bioware to up and say that Sovereign could have gone after all three but FOCUSED on Shepard, maybe to... make sure it stuck. Or maybe because the others didn't matter. Or that the Reapers have new ways of indoctrinating people that we've never even heard of, and they used one of these on Shepard! Off-camera, no less! Between ME1 and ME2. Whatever. It's all absolutely possible.

What I'm saying is this wouldn't be brilliant storytelling. That should have been self-evident from the fact that when people saw the ending, they didn't say "Oooooh, so much suddenly makes sense, it's like all the pieces just fell into place." If it had been a masterful twist, the majority would be saying that.

When's the last time someone said they didn't "get" the Bioshock twist? That was a competently executed plot twist.

Shepard has had more contact with Reaper tech than just about any other person in the Galaxy, and we've been told time and time again that Shepard in somehow "special" to the Reapers and that they have a higher purpose for him. The "slow, methodical, and patient" Indoctrination that is brought up in the Codex entry about the subject would fit the symptoms Shepard goes through in ME3, kind of like everything is finally catching up to him.

If that DOES turn out to be what they intended, it would show they at least did what they did with a purpose. What happened in ME3 wasn't just "for the spectacle" and I think would be kind of nice to know they at least had a plan for the series from the beginning and weren't just flying by the seat of their pants

I think they popularity of the theory is because it IS kind of unexpected. Shepard is seemingly invincible through the Series, but in ME3, just about all the "non-shooting" parts are about how weak he feels. Indoctrinated Shepard would be the ultimate victory for the Reapers as well as the ultimate defeat for Shepard. He seems immune to Reaper influence through the series, but now it shows that he really isn't. It's always been there in the back of his mind, clawing away at him. It just taken til now, at a point where the whole galaxy is counting on him, to really start wearing him down.

That's just my two cents about it at least. I think it would be a pretty good read if it was put into a book.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Well, if this new ending DLC does disprove the Indoctrination Theory I'll be sad.

But the second best theory out there is the Lost Island Theory (Which I came up with)

Which states that after the Normandy gets hit by the shockwave it crashes on the Island from Lost (Lost being another series with a terrible ending, so correlation there.)

This theory also fills in all the plot holes (Not only in the ending but for the rest of the game to) Because after Joker and Co. find the Vault it's only a matter of time before they find the magic nuke that sends them back in time where they can make sure everything that didn't make sense in ME 3 happen according to Canon.

Also the Dharma Initiative being the precursor to Cerberus would fill in a bunch of plot holes From Lost.

I don't have an hour and a half long Youtube video to prove it, but it's a solid theory.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

I agree theres no reason shepard should be imune to indoctrination (hey...what if those cybernetics in shepard are like "recivers" or "antenne" for the indoctrination?..ok long shot I know)

I highly doubt though this was Bioware plan from the start...that its just too mcuh of a long shot