Morrowind 2011 Mod Collection Pulled After Complaints

AgentBJ09

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May 24, 2010
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Good thing I downloaded this on Day 1.

I feel for this guy, though. Being threatened with legal action when no money was made and he gave credit to everyone involved.

Once I get a newer PC to handle the high-res stuff, I'm running this mod pack as long as I have Morrowind installed.
 

Scars Unseen

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May 7, 2009
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So a guy took several people's mods, redistributed them without permission, and got called on it? Why is this a big deal? There are several sources that provide links to game improving mods as well as guides on how to get them working. There are also several mod compilations created with the consent of the original modders. This is the (minimal) work of a guy who doesn't understand how things work.

Aside from the legality of the thing (where this guy clearly falls into the wrong, at least in the US), this guy is part of the problem that drives modders away, to the detriment of us all. The thing about creative types is that they put a lot of effort into their creations (well the better creations, anyway). Because of this, the modders feel a sense of ownership to their work. So when someone comes along and decides that something is free to redistribute just because it's free to download (which is absolutely not true), the modders are justifiably angered. Enough of this sort of disrespect can (and has) drive modders away from the scene altogether. In this case, the distributor of this compilation has pissed off a lot of modders, which is why the response seems so severe.

There is another reason that this compilation might not be a good idea. Mods get updated, even for a game as old as Morrowind. Sanctioned compilations have a hard enough time getting the latest updates integrated, so how much harder would it be for someone that has pretty much been shunned by the entire modding community to keep something as large as Morrowind 2011 updated?

As for the comment that Bethesda is the one that owns modding content... sorry. Bethesda may be able to lay claim to content created by their editor, but the same cannot be said for models, textures, sounds, and anything else created by external tools. And if you take those away, what do you have? Some scripting, dialogue, and a lot of exclamation points and error messages. Try again.

What this guy is no different than if someone posted the entirety of Penny Arcade on their own site in order attract web traffic (at the expense of the original creators). He does not deserve your sympathy.
 

thethingthatlurks

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Feb 16, 2010
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That jibes with an email he received from one aggrieved mod author, who said that the list of credits is largely irrelevant. "The bottom line is that your compilation violates copyright law in about a dozen countries and a vast majority of the authors whose work was included aren't happy about it," he wrote. "Fixing the credits, nice as it may be, doesn't solve the issue of the whole package being illegal."
Ah, how wonderfully ignorant those idiots are. Actually, the bit about copyright violation in a dozen countries conjures up the mental image of a fat kid screaming at the top of his lungs as tears roll down his equally fat cheeks about how unfair it all is, and how is divine creation can now enjoy even more fame, but not thanks to him. Actually, this sounds like a pretty cool meme, gotta throw something together and spam 4chan later.
Anyway, this would indeed be illegal if: 1) Our dear collector had passed off the mods as his own, or if 2) he were to charge money for previously gratuitous mods (or if he were offering the mods for free after the author had charged money - basically if money is involved in any way). Now, he did neither of those, so all the whining about legal stuff is just the bullshit that butthurt idiots spew when they don't realize that their works will now enjoy a larger audience. Ultimately the collection is like this: hey, X is great, but if you combine it with A,B,C...Y,Z, you get something truly amazing. Oh yeah, X was made by bla, and you should totally check out their other stuff.
Idiots...the whole fucking internet...
 

Fumbleumble

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Oct 17, 2010
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NezumiiroKitsune said:
Fumbleumble said:
NezumiiroKitsune said:
It isn't about money, it's about being recognised for your work, and getting relevant rankings to the quality of your work on the likes of the nexus. They were fully within their rights to ask him to take it down, I do wish he'd asked permission, though I think banning him was extreme. He should release the development notes on how to implement this yourself. That way, he gets recognition for making it work, and the mod creators get their downloads, ratings and whatever else they deserve.
His work is every bit as relevent to the mod and player 'community' (lol) as the actual mod makers' is... the mod makers TAKE bethesda's final product and release something based on it.. this guy takes the modders final product and releases something based on it (and far more useful as far as I'm concerned, he saves me work and gives me a working end product.. which strangly enough is more than the modders OR Bethesda actually did for me :eek:).

These muppet's don't have a leg to stand on.. it's not their's, none of it is.... unless we've actually gotten to the stage where people can legalify their sweat.
I don't think he created anything, he just arranged the load order and mod settings to allow them to co-interact without crashing or lagging the game. This is all certainly relevant stuff, but it's not a mod or building on their mods. I'd be surprised if he needed the TES Contruction kit for this.

This is a very convenient package that saves users a lot of time, but it does take away from the original uploaders. No one reads credits text files, their mod uploads would become second place, and if this became popular practice people might start collecting mods everywhere and uploading swarms of compilations, making it very difficult for the mods like the ones used in this compilation to get the recognition to become worthy of compilations like this.
It's all a modification of original work by bethesda... his giving them credit in a txt file is exactly the same as their own justification of giving Bethesda credit in their effort.

There's no difference there... they don't have a right to moan.. free work based on someone elses work and released for all becomes public domain.... had it all been their own ORIGINAL work then yeah.. there would be a difference... but it's ALL derivative.

They mod bethesda's.. he mods their's.. same all round.

No one owns anything except Bethesda.. and they professed neutrality in this matter when they released a toolset.. as long as no one gets paid, all their bitching is irrelevent.
 

northeast rower

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Dec 14, 2010
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Alright, let me just point out that people make games for the gamers. You lose gamers, you lose your market. That said, the push by the modders to have their mods taken off is plainly fucking stupid. They're just losing their fanbase.
 

geldonyetich

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I really don't get how it is that Morrowind plugin authors have any legal right to their work at all. I'm pretty sure Bethesda has it right in the terms-of-service agreement that any and all content made for the game, even by fans, is property of Bethesda. It's standard cover-your-ass legal procedure when you open up your game to be modifiable by others.
 

Erana

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chemicalreaper said:
Erana said:
So, people who are calling the original mod creators jerks, or something along those lines, have you ever had your work appropriated?
This response would be justified if it pertained to someone's own Intellectual Property. However, Morrowind is registered under copyright by Bethesda and Zeni-Max Media (Bethesda's parent company). It is NOT in the public domain -- and it is not covered by a Creative Commons Non-Commercial Derivatives license. This means that the mod creators do not actually have any copyrights -- you can't create a derivative work of a video game, then claim it as your own. That's not how copyright law works.
He got banned from the official Bethesda forums- they're obviously siding with the modders here. Its not about copyright here, its about plain old respect. If you've appropriated other peoples' efforts and they're mad en masse, you back off and issue a formal apology.

If there's backlash after he works to mend these grievances, then there's reason to defend him.
 

Jfswift

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I've slowly come to the belief that if you have to wait to ask for permission for everything in life you'll never get anything done.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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This entire thing is ridiculous on so many levels is defies belief.

Bethesda pretty much gave the community a go-ahead to mod their games and even tends to provide the toolsets to make it easy to do. The guys making these mods were by and large adding free works to the community, and I'm pretty sure that by definition they don't OWN anything, since all their work using that game and the tool sets actually belongs to Bethesda, who by all accounts has covered itself heavily in this regard.

Claims of copyright would be bogus anyway. I'm not a huge expert on it but it's not quite as easy as a lot of people think to have a copyright stand. Simply put to hold a serious copyright costs money and you have to have it officially registered. A company that does not pay to maintain their copyrights will see their work become public domain, long before the simple passage of time would have a chance of doing it. Before anyone starts griping about how I'm wrong, I will point out that there have been a number of fights over things like this in regards to sites distributing "Abandonware" and so on. By and large they continue to exist because of companies not maintaining their rights and ownership of certain properties in the face of the law.

The whole thing about being able to mark "copyright" on something you create and then have it be protected has some validity, but mostly comes into play in cases where your on the way to have the copyright registered. The principle being that if you write something, and your roomate goes "wow, that's really good" and decides to grab a copy of it and try and get it copyrighted before you and gets there first due to having a faster car, you can protect your work from theft by having declared/marked that intent. Of course like anything there is no way to detemine the validity of when a copyright was marked, or who might have done it first. Anyone can claim anything is copyrighted at any time. Typically such marks have weight when there is some additional way of proving their validity. Back when I was in college the subject was covered in brief, and a simple and straightforward way of protecting a copyright in the short term is to write that intent on the documents (like a story) and then mail a copy of the documents to yourself through the postal service. The postal service will date the envelope/box and then as long as you don't open it you have an item dated by a third party with no vested interest that can show when you made that claim/created the work. So if you went to court over it, the package could be opened in front of witnesses. If the date marked by the postal service (and confirmed by their tracking system) is earlier than the guy trying to claim your work can prove he had a claim, your likely going to win.

Or in short, there is no way any of these mod creators could ever PROVE they created any of this stuff. I could take any one of those mods and say I made it, stamp a copyright on it, and who is to say they aren't robbing me, if there is no independantly viable proof? If they actually tried to pursue legal action here they would likely be laughed out of a courtroom. Not that the guy assembling these mods did try and claim them as his own or anything, he was apparently giving credit where it was due.

What's more, as I understand things, the guy putting together Morrowwind 2011 wasn't just using someone else's work and compiling it. Apparently he himself had to do some work to get all those mods to work together seamlessly. As anyone who has modded a game, even one designed for it like Bethesda's games can tell you, mods conflict with each other like crazy in some very unexpected ways. The guy does deserve credit for getting all those mods to play well with each other so to speak.

The point here is that this strikes me as being bogus, I think what we're looking at is a bunch of mod makers who were distributing their work for free, and who were being given credit for their work (which is the only thing they could reasonable expect) were trying to make noise because they could.

My big problem with the issue here is that Bethesda itself apparently banned the guy and took action on his account. Truthfully I think if anyone needs to be looked at carefully here it's them, because they shouldn't have been involved in this to begin with, unless in some way their ownership of the "Elder Scrolls" property itself was being threatened, which hardly seems to be the case.

My attitude is pretty much that a few arrogant twits with delusions of grandeur and non-existant legal backing, should be allowed to ruin things like this for everyone just because they can.

This is all simply what I think/have learned, and my opinion of course. Also I'll state that I don't want to get into a prolonged arguement on copyright law. It's been a while, but I tend to trust my sources. What little I know actually comes from my ambition at one time to become a science fiction/fantasy/horror writer, and having talked to a couple of english teachers in college about it when I was younger. The cost of copyrighting a manuscript was something they mentioned (if a publisher doesn't buy it from you and worry about that themselves) along with the bit about mailing a manuscript to yourself to use the postal office as an impartial third party as far as dates go as a defensive technique if you ever became worried about someone stealing your work. As well as a good thing to do in general in case when you wrote something comes into question (such as a case where another writer with similar ideas decides to try and accuse you of plagerism... having written yours first and being able to prove that is the best defense you can have).
 

Fumbleumble

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Therumancer said:
My big problem with the issue here is that Bethesda itself apparently banned the guy and took action on his account. Truthfully I think if anyone needs to be looked at carefully here it's them, because they shouldn't have been involved in this to begin with, unless in some way their ownership of the "Elder Scrolls" property itself was being threatened, which hardly seems to be the case.
THIS... A MILLION TIMES THIS!!!!!!!
 

-Samurai-

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Oct 8, 2009
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Erana said:
So, people who are calling the original mod creators jerks, or something along those lines, have you ever had your work appropriated?
Yes. Yes I have. Fact is, there's nothing I can do about it(even if I wanted to).

Most sites hosting mods will remove something if it contains your work and you didn't give permission. That's a courtesy. They don't have to do that. You don't own your mods. You have no copyright to them and all you have is the claim that you made them. You don't get to decide who gets to do what with them.

Asking for permission before using someones mod in your own work is common courtesy in the modding community. It's a showing of respect to the authors of the work you want to use. It is not a necessity and you can't be legally punished for using someones work without their permission.
 

Ancientgamer

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While they may be technically in the right, I can't help but feel that the mod creators in this case have lost sense of the greater priorities of the modding community, which is creating a better, more supportive experience for everyone. I'm certainly not deneing they have the right to be selfish, but it doesn't make their actions any more excusable from an ethical standpoint.
 

Some_weirdGuy

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Nov 25, 2010
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HG131 said:
OU CAN'T CLAIM COPYRIGHT ON MODS, DUMBASSES!
Pretty sure they can claim copyright on all of their contributions Within the mod, such as graphics, music, code, etc.

Unless i'm mistaken.

Anyway, i understand the mod creators completely.
Its like you painting a picture, spending a lot of time and effort getting it how you want it. Then some guy grabs the picture, puts it together with a second picture, then gets up on a stage showing it off to people, getting praised for his fantastic work.

Wouldn't you feel peeved?

Its basically stealing credit, even if he did put a text file in the archive listing credits no one will really look or pay attention to it. Its got this other guys name plastered over the place and cause he set it up they'll see him as the creator.

The only reason he didn't ask is because he knew they probably wouldn't want him to do it, that they liked their mods how they were and didn't want them ripped. (what other reason could he have for not asking first?)
 

Brian Hendershot

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Mar 3, 2010
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I have come to the conclusion that people are morons and doubly so in the internet...

Gonna try and find somewhere to download that bad boy right now.