Obesity Discrimination

[Jeremy Meadows]

And this proves that it's "not completely flawed" exactly how?

As I pointed out earlier: yes, the medical industry would be entirely motivated by altruism in a perfect world. Unfortunately, in this one, the diet industry and pharmaceutical companies have a lot of pull. Keeping people worried about their weight is profitable.
Wat.

No. I'm arguing that "morbid obesity" is a meaningless concept.

Yes, it's possible to make educated guesses about someone's overall health based on observation. But let me explain, again: The very concept of "obesity" reduces all of a person's health issues to--and blames them entirely on--their being fat. Or rather, on their being heavy, seeing as it doesn't take body composition into account. (Won't even go into how focusing on extremes/stereotypes is kind of a red herring.)

[/quote]Really, I'm reminded of every time I've heard someone say "I'm not (prejudiced), but..."

I said "observation," not "personal questions." Like it or not, most of us don't pay attention to our surroundings as much as we'd like to think, unless we go out of our way to do so. And we all make snap judgments at times.

You, however, don't even seem to consider that you might be making snap judgments about people you find unsightly. And you not only body-police and fat-shame without a second thought, but...well, the boldfaced part. Not even gonna go there.

All in all, it's pretty clear that for all your talk of loving the sinner and hating the sin, you do hold the "sinners" in contempt.

Please watch this video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhTA4xOxCc&list=UUJm5yR1KFcysl_0I3x-iReg&index=1&feature=plcp]. Focus especially on the part between 3:01 and 3:18, but watch the whole thing. You might learn something.[/quote]

Wow that got really annoying to watch. Anyway before I get to that I'll start from the top.
It's not completly flawed because of the FACT that being overweight DOES have health problems. And they only get worse the bigger you are. There is no why to dispute that. If a guy who ways over 300 pounds who doesn't smoke just drops over, what's the number 1 guess what happened? Let me give ya a hint, it's not going to be from smoke inhalation.

And I would love to always think the best of people and think that "oh something horriable happened to them". But that would make me into a gullabe sap, who can used by a little lie. Why do we always associate bums with getting money for alocohol? Because that's what the majority spend it on. Same thing with overweight people. What you call prejudiced I call the majority. Cuz most of the time I'm right. *cuz I spend 8 hours a day or more in the same surroundings. The only thing for me to do is watch people. I see how they act, what they buy, and what they wear every day. So I'm not sort of bigot living in my own little world with my own little friends who look exactly like me.

And as far as the video goes. She was mostly talking about chick who curvey or chubby. Like the pictures she used was not even close to size I am talking about. And I loved how you pointed the time out to try and make it seem like I'm insacure and a bully. When the fact is 1. I f-ing love me and screw off anyone else who doesn't (I've lost a couple people over that). 2. I somehow am prejudiced of fat people when I have many friends who are overweight and 2. Dated women who are larger then me. But the difference is they weren't morbid obese and they were confident in themselves.

 

[Something Amyss]

Obesity is a lifestyle choice that defies God. End obese marriage! We don't want them spreading their ways to our kids!

...Sorry, the analogue was SO tempting.

 

[him over there]

Obesity is a lifestyle choice that defies God. End obese marriage! We don't want them spreading their ways to our kids!

...Sorry, the analogue was SO tempting.

That elicited far my laughter from me than it should have. Good on you!

 

[Bedewyr]

What people may not be quite so considerate of is that excess weight is a common side-affect of having better things to do than run laps.

So what are those better things than even doing a modicum amount of exercise for maintenance? Shoving 4K+ calories into the mouth while living a completely sedentary lifestyle of TV, Movies and Video Games?

You can make up excuses all you want but, excess weight usually comes down to 3 issues.

1) Eating Too Much
2) Exercising Too Little
3) Actual medical problems (Diabetes, certain medications cause weight gain, thyroid, glandular)

The problem is people are usually far too willing to grasp at the medical problems rather than face the fact that they eat too much or move too little. Hell even if you love Video games you can play the Kinect for 20-30 minutes a day or Wii Fitness and get some exercise even while playing a Video Game.

Some people are big because they don't live properly... some just are. Stop the judging.

Everything can be changed now, so why is picking on fat people ok? From what I'm told, it is much easier to afford unhealthy food in the US than healthy. In the north here in Canada, you can get a bag of chips for a couple dollars, but a gallon of milk costs 10. A loaf of bread 6 or 7 dollars. A bag of apples? $20. Not easy to eat well.

Also - have you ever asked someone how they feel after they lose weight? People treat them better and that is the most hurtful thing in the world.

All of this right here is utter horsecrap.

a Gallon of milk is 3.99 if you aren't completely inept and know at all where to shop. A bag of Apples (5lbs) from the grocery store is usally less than 5 dollars. If you find local farmers markets you can get them for half that price. A loaf of bread is not 6 or 7 dollars either. Good lord where do you shop?

I judge smokers. It's disgusting and smells bad, it costs me more in taxes for healthcare, it exposes me to possible second hand smoke which I do not wish to be exposed to.

I also judge some fat people (obese or morbidly obese people). When I see them waddling up to the movie theatre snack stand throwing down a large popcorn smothered in butter, with excess candy and a Litre of Cola. It's disgusting, I will move if they sit near me because many times they smell horrid due to being unable to wash under their folds properly and the bacteria that accumulates smells, and it also costs me more in taxpayer money for their healthcare costs due to them developing Type 2 Diabetes as well as needing more hospital visits and having a much poorer overall health.

When I went away for my professional degree I became depressed. I had moved cities, had to leave behind all my friends and family and I was alone. I gained over 20 lbs from being inactive and drinking a lot. I lost over 30 lbs in 3 months when I got back and was disgusted with what I had become and whenever anyone told me how good I was looking I was feeling great. The more they told me I was looking great the more motivated I was to continue my journey. I love the feeling of being told I look great. Why would you ever feel bad about a compliment? Because it implies you didn't look great before? New Flash, the truth isn't all sunshine and roses. Maybe you're really smart but, ugly. Maybe you're really attractive but, dumb as a rock. Maybe you rolled 20's and are a jack of all trades. Who cares? Take the compliments and use them to motivate yourself.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Wow that got really annoying to watch.

And all of the body-shaming in the guise of concern for public health[footnote]AKA: the root of the whole damn fat panic![/footnote] got annoying long ago. Your point?

Anyway before I get to that I'll start from the top.
It's not completly flawed because of the FACT that being overweight DOES have health problems. And they only get worse the bigger you are. There is no why to dispute that.

BZZT! Wrong.

Yes, it's a foregone conclusion. Never mind that the studies "proving" it have ignored other contributing factors (and that's when the data hasn't been "massaged" to produce the desired results). Therefore, almost no one bothers to dispute it. Especially as long as people's weight woes are such a cash cow.

If a guy who ways over 300 pounds who doesn't smoke just drops over, what's the number 1 guess what happened? Let me give ya a hint, it's not going to be from smoke inhalation.

Of course: That's what "foregone conclusion" means.

And if the autopsy proves that he had a congenital circulatory defect that he never knew about? The cause of death is still likely to say "secondary to obesity."

And I would love to always think the best of people and think that "oh something horriable happened to them". But that would make me into a gullabe sap, who can used by a little lie. Why do we always associate bums with getting money for alocohol? Because that's what the majority spend it on. Same thing with overweight people. What you call prejudiced I call the majority. Cuz most of the time I'm right. *cuz I spend 8 hours a day or more in the same surroundings. The only thing for me to do is watch people. I see how they act, what they buy, and what they wear every day.

Of course always thinking the best of people would be naïve. Are you seriously implying that I hold such a viewpoint?

But being judgmental, and refusing to even so much as acknowledge that you might be misjudging people? That's not much, if at all, better.

So I'm not sort of bigot living in my own little world with my own little friends who look exactly like me.

Mm-hmm. If you say so.

And as far as the video goes. She was mostly talking about chick who curvey or chubby.

[Citation needed.]

Like the pictures she used was not even close to size I am talking about.

Irrelevant. Most of them would still be called "obese" (if not "morbidly obese") by the medical industry, have people jumping to conclusions about their habits, and probably get weight loss prescribed as a cure for all that might ail them.

P.S.: The size you're probably talking about? As I've pointed out several times before: in that case, it's generally symptomatic of some underlying condition. (In before you insist, yet again, that the "underlying condition" just must be behavioral. Because otherwise, how are you gonna keep convincing yourself you've got the moral high ground?)

And I loved how you pointed the time out to try and make it seem like I'm insacure and a bully. When the fact is 1. I f-ing love me and screw off anyone else who doesn't (I've lost a couple people over that). 2. I somehow am prejudiced of fat people when I have many friends who are overweight and 2. Dated women who are larger then me. But the difference is they weren't morbid obese and they were confident in themselves.

Ah, yes: the good old "I have backup" excuse. And a hint of "I didn't mean all of them, just this stereotypical extreme!" while you were at it.

Obesity is a lifestyle choice that defies God. End obese marriage! We don't want them spreading their ways to our kids!

...Sorry, the analogue was SO tempting.

*snerk*

Your grandchildren might be half fat!

(That said, I was...less than impressed...with the eating disorder jokes in that episode.)

All of this right here is utter horsecrap.

a Gallon of milk is 3.99 if you aren't completely inept and know at all where to shop. A bag of Apples (5lbs) from the grocery store is usally less than 5 dollars. If you find local farmers markets you can get them for half that price. A loaf of bread is not 6 or 7 dollars either. Good lord where do you shop?

Congratulations: You don't live in a food desert [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert], have little trouble making ends meet, or both. Your experiences are not representative of everyone's.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Save the whales, harpoon a fat chick

[sub]Can't remember where I heard that line but it's freakin' terrible [/sub]

Being fat is associated with greed and/or a lack of self control/discipline.

Or glandular probs.

but yeah, all of this.

 

[Bedewyr]

Snip

At the very least can it be agreed that making sure everyone has access to the foods they want, and access to safe movement options is a better way forward than nurturing a culture of fear, stigma and shame?


As for your other ponderings, I'd suggest looking at Tom Naughton, and his film Fathead. It comes from a far more cool, clinical perspective, but also debunks the totally erroneous "obese=automatically unhealthy" idea. He's got some ideas on what causes fat, but make sure to bear in mind that fat isn't automatically ill health, and that stigmatising and shaming -- and linking to comprehensive lists of fat jokes as an academic counter-argument -- is just an all-round stupid idea.

That film is also absolute garbage because of how he goes about his "Fast Food" diet. So I'll eat fast food except I won't drink sodas (excess calories, sugar, etc,) won't eat french fries (empty carb and oil calories) will eat a caloric deficit (less than 2,000 calories a day) and will exercise 6 days a week. I lost weight!? (gee you think?)

His doctors even explain in the film that if people ate a more appropriate low glycemic index diet (full of vegetables, fruits, nuts, meat, and whole grains) as opposed to they way they do eat (garbage) they would probably end up the same as Naughton and lose weight. Crazy I know.

It does nothing to debunk the idea that obese = unhealthy because Naughton was only JUST tipping in at Obese on the BMI and studies have shown that people who are slightly overweight live longer than those who are either morbidly obese or excessively skinny.

This one documentary does not undo the fact that being mobidly obese is linked to Diabetes, Cancers, Heart Disease, High Blood Pressure, Sleep Apnea, Gout, Gall Bladder Disease, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Bedewyr]

All of this right here is utter horsecrap.

a Gallon of milk is 3.99 if you aren't completely inept and know at all where to shop. A bag of Apples (5lbs) from the grocery store is usally less than 5 dollars. If you find local farmers markets you can get them for half that price. A loaf of bread is not 6 or 7 dollars either. Good lord where do you shop?

Congratulations: You don't live in a food desert [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert], have little trouble making ends meet, or both. Your experiences are not representative of everyone's.

I've been to Yellowknife which is about as bad as it gets for food costs. My cousin, his wife, and 3 kids live there and I have ample first hand experience with the most punishing costs of food within Canada.

This is the first and only time I will respond to you as your have been nothing but condescending and pompous for the entirety of this thread.

 

[RamirezDoEverything]

You can't help being black, white, gay, straight, male, female.

You can help being fat.

Even with genetics, the majority of fat people can be somewhat healthy.

Being fat is a waste to your evolutionary processes that have been working for billions of years.

If it is discrimination, than call the feelings-police, I am a bigot.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I've been to Yellowknife which is about as bad as it gets for food costs. My cousin, his wife, and 3 kids live there and I have ample first hand experience with the most punishing costs of food within Canada.

"I've got one example of high food costs in one area! This proves my point!"

This is the first and only time I will respond to you as your have been nothing but condescending and pompous for the entirety of this thread.

Glass houses much? And no; I've been snarky, opinionated, a helluva lot better informed than certain people would like to admit, and unafraid of poking people in the privilege. Which clearly struck a nerve.

Also, that was about the quickest flounce I've ever seen. Didn't even try to argue.

You can't help being black, white, gay, straight, male, female.

You can help being fat.

I'm sure that viewpoint makes it easy for you to pass judgment. Too bad its accuracy has been called into question.

Even with genetics, the majority of fat people can be somewhat healthy.

Healthy, yes. A socially-acceptable size? Not necessarily.

Being fat is a waste to your evolutionary processes that have been working for billions of years.

Prove it, or you're talkin' smack.

If it is discrimination, than call the feelings-police, I am a bigot.

ITT: reducing discrimination to a matter of "feelings" and implying that one is being persecuted justifies it.

 

[Marowit]

Farseer - I'm not arguing for a weight-lose focused approach, we've been agreeing about that. I'm a big proponent of muscle-mass-change as the way of modifying your health outcome. I know several people who have started working out, and didn't drop a pound, quite the opposite, and feel much better and their vitals have changed to the better as well.

I also completely agree with poverty being a better predictor for health outcomes, because it's those people who generally must eat the crap I'm so against. They however, also have a myriad of other stressors in their life that lead to terrible health outcomes. That research is easy enough to find.

At the end of the day though, I think it's a a lot of denial and a bit of ignorance for the most part. There is no better example of this than smoking. If someone thinks smoking, or eating a doughnut/bag of chips/bottle of soda, doesn't have health consequences you're only lying to yourself. And, papers that can't be properly digested by the lay-person stating that being overweight is not the problem can be pretty dangerous. Not because their research is fundamentally flawed, but because they require a certain amount of interpretation most people haven't learned to do - reports in news media about, 'this new breaking research,' are great examples of this.

I dunno, will I tell my obese, by the medical definition, patients they need to lose weight? Probably. Will I advocate for diet changes? Yes. Will I advocate for diets? No. I'll advocate and try to educate about proper nutrition and exercise...and they, for the most part, won't listen and will try their Atkin's and L.A. blah blah blah diets, because they're easy...just like eating junk is easier than cooking for yourself.

 

[FoolKiller]

This discussion reminds me of an episode in House.... here is the quote:

Dr. Cameron: Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child? It's normal to want to be normal.

Dr. House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny, socially-privileged white people get to draw this neat little circle. And everyone inside the circle is "normal". Anyone outside the circle needs to be beaten, broken and reset so that they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be institutionalized. Or worse - Pitied.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I'm foolishly posting on this thread despite the fact that this is clear bait for a flame-war...

I get the general argument against obesity (it's bad for you, it's unappealing) but the argument that all fat people should simply drop all their beliefs and experiences in life and immediately hustle to the gym until they look like professional body-builders is a tad ridiculous.

I exaggerate, but the point I'm trying to make is that change is one of the most difficult things in this world. It's easy to judge other people (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fundamental+attribution+error) but in actuality changing things about yourself is really difficult.

This discussion reminds me of an episode in House.... here is the quote:

Dr. Cameron: Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child? It's normal to want to be normal.

Dr. House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny, socially-privileged white people get to draw this neat little circle. And everyone inside the circle is "normal". Anyone outside the circle needs to be beaten, broken and reset so that they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be institutionalized. Or worse - Pitied.

What a great show

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Farseer - I'm not arguing for a weight-lose focused approach, we've been agreeing about that. I'm a big proponent of muscle-mass-change as the way of modifying your health outcome. I know several people who have started working out, and didn't drop a pound, quite the opposite, and feel much better and their vitals have changed to the better as well.

I also completely agree with poverty being a better predictor for health outcomes, because it's those people who generally must eat the crap I'm so against. They however, also have a myriad of other stressors in their life that lead to terrible health outcomes. That research is easy enough to find.

I think we're actually in agreement on all of this.

However! From what I've been able to tell, the medical industry as a whole does favor the weight-loss-focused approach. There's an underlying idea that there's no point in improving your lifestyle unless you slim down in the process, and that you've failed if you don't slim down.

At the end of the day though, I think it's a a lot of denial and a bit of ignorance for the most part. There is no better example of this than smoking. If someone thinks smoking, or eating a doughnut/bag of chips/bottle of soda, doesn't have health consequences you're only lying to yourself.

For the reasons I've detailed, I still have to disagree about the "denial" factor. I don't think anyone's actually operating under the misconception that junk food isn't crap. (As for smokers: well, like it or not, they're drug addicts.)

And, papers that can't be properly digested by the lay-person stating that being overweight is not the problem can be pretty dangerous. Not because their research is fundamentally flawed, but because they require a certain amount of interpretation most people haven't learned to do - reports in news media about, 'this new breaking research,' are great examples of this.

I dunno, will I tell my obese, by the medical definition, patients they need to lose weight? Probably. Will I advocate for diet changes? Yes. Will I advocate for diets? No. I'll advocate and try to educate about proper nutrition and exercise...and they, for the most part, won't listen and will try their Atkin's and L.A. blah blah blah diets, because they're easy...just like eating junk is easier than cooking for yourself.

It's not even just a matter of expediency. Fad diets aren't popular because they're healthy; they're popular because they're shiny, so to speak. Lots of media endorsement and a catchy name means that it must be good, and all that rot. Especially if it appeals as much or more to your sense of vanity as to any health concerns that you might have.

And I'm not sure how a simplified version of the health at every size material (emphasizing nutritional balance and fitness and leaving weight out of it altogether) would be any more "dangerous" than the current fat scare.

This discussion reminds me of an episode in House.... here is the quote:

Dr. Cameron: Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child? It's normal to want to be normal.

Dr. House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny, socially-privileged white people get to draw this neat little circle. And everyone inside the circle is "normal". Anyone outside the circle needs to be beaten, broken and reset so that they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be institutionalized. Or worse - Pitied.

Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it. (I'll leave it up to the readers as to whether or not that was a deliberate pun.)

 

[Spineyguy]

What people may not be quite so considerate of is that excess weight is a common side-affect of having better things to do than run laps.

So what are those better things than even doing a modicum amount of exercise for maintenance? Shoving 4K+ calories into the mouth while living a completely sedentary lifestyle of TV, Movies and Video Games?

You can make up excuses all you want but, excess weight usually comes down to 3 issues.

1) Eating Too Much
2) Exercising Too Little
3) Actual medical problems (Diabetes, certain medications cause weight gain, thyroid, glandular)

I agree that making excuses like 'It's in my genes' is a bit pointless. If you have sufficient willpower then no amount of DNA will stop you losing weight. But my point remains, many of the people upon whom the smooth running of our society depends are expected to work frankly unhealthy hours and this will not leave them much time or energy to go and exercise. Still, the motivation to exercise will drive people regardless of their work, if they really want it.

The fact of the matter is that most people are no longer required to maintain a high level of physical fitness, the number of jobs that demand long hours of manual labour decreases with every new advance in technology. The work to be done today has a lot more to do with what you know and how well you can think your way through a problem than how much you can bench-press.

Unfortunately many people maintain the eating habits (as in size and frequency of meals) that were required a hundred years ago, even though they no longer need that many calories.

And then there is the matter of gluttony, which comes from a lack of self control and the abundance of advertising for (and the sheer deliciousness of) unhealthy food. But I don't think any of these things are issues we really need to worry about. When it matters people will shape up. Obesity is unlikely to reach an apocalyptic scale any time soon.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I agree that making excuses like 'It's in my genes' is a bit pointless. If you have sufficient willpower then no amount of DNA will stop you losing weight.

Temporarily? Sure.

Whether or not you'll be able to maintain it through healthy means, keep it off for any length of time, or actually improve your health via weight loss alone? Different beasts altogether. (Modern medicine, by the way, is fully aware of this.)

 

[TheVioletBandit]

It's funny to me that the name of this thread is "obesity discrimination", and so many people are openly discriminating against obese people.

 

[Spineyguy]

I agree that making excuses like 'It's in my genes' is a bit pointless. If you have sufficient willpower then no amount of DNA will stop you losing weight.

Temporarily? Sure.

Whether or not you'll be able to maintain it through healthy means, keep it off for any length of time, or actually improve your health via weight loss alone? Different beasts altogether. (Modern medicine, by the way, is fully aware of this.)

Again it's about having the willpower. Most people choose to lose weight based on some absurd aesthetic ideal or because they think that a few extra months of ill health and agony at the end of their life is worth it, then they remember that they like cake and suffer a relapse. It takes a lot of hard work and discipline to lose weight and maintaining that level of concentration is even harder.

When all is said and done, it's simply not worth the effort in my mind. I, however, am tremendously lucky that I am not naturally prone to gaining weight.

 

[pandorum]

obese people are the reason we have a shitty 20kg limit for bags on airplanes, just found this out.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

It's not nice to discriminate against anyone for any reason.

I discriminate against rapists, murderers and paedophiles and I'm sure you do too. Or are you opposed to treating them differently--sending them to prison--and would rather they be allowed to roam the community?

Sweeping, absolute statements tend to have glaring flaws such as that.

Fat Whores

Why would anyone care to listen to a group calling themselves that?