My two cents is that this can be a dangerous course to take. Humans have a long and sad history of turning specialty groups and events into exclusive groups and events. Acceptence has never been found by seperating one group from another.
Nonsense. Acceptance tends to increase as a direct consequence of greater cultural exposure - and nothing gives greater exposure than a highly publicized, public event. That's why when black people used to hold marches and protests, the result was a greater acceptance of black people. It didn't result in folks shaking their heads and going "why are blacks segregating themselves with 'black marches'?"
Besides, gay conventions (or for that matter, black protests) don't segregate. Heterosexuals are free to go to these events too. In fact it would be nice if people did, but heterosexuals tend to avoid going, for fear of being the odd one out, or feeling vulnerable (ironically what minorities tend to have to deal with on a regular basis).
Simple exercise for straight people who don't understand the appeal of Gaymercon: go there. Take note of how you feel in an environment specifically geared toward people whose sexuality is different from your own. You may notice you feel a bit uncomfortable because you're in the minority, even though (hopefully) nobody's being overtly or intentionally hostile to you. That's how gay people feel at "normal" cons. Is it any wonder they want a place where they can hang out with fellow gamers without that niggling discomfort prodding at the back of their mind?
Are you gay and forever uncomfortable? How much does a gay game convention differ from the more established conventions? And in what ways?
I obviously can't provide evidence for this, but as long as the convention is still focused on games, and not gay fan art and fan fiction(which I know it's not) then I think I would be plenty comfortable. At least as comfortable as someone who generally doesn't like crowds can be.
I've said before that I'm not bothered by any of this. I'm genuinly curious about how different it would be.
I know a lot of people will ask why does the LGBT community need a gaming con, why do people need cons in the first place? Its so people with like minded interest can get together and share conversations and ideas without being frowned upon. Sure in a perfect world we wouldn't need this but it isn't perfect. So I'm fine with "Gaymers" however lame that title is to have their own con if it promotes positivity why not
Hilarity of my jokes aside, why do you care if they have a gaymer con? Need or not, they want it and since these thing exist entirely to satisfy want there is one.
Simple exercise for straight people who don't understand the appeal of Gaymercon: go there. Take note of how you feel in an environment specifically geared toward people whose sexuality is different from your own. You may notice you feel a bit uncomfortable because you're in the minority, even though (hopefully) nobody's being overtly or intentionally hostile to you. That's how gay people feel at "normal" cons. Is it any wonder they want a place where they can hang out with fellow gamers without that niggling discomfort prodding at the back of their mind?
Are you gay and forever uncomfortable? How much does a gay game convention differ from the more established conventions? And in what ways?
I obviously can't provide evidence for this, but as long as the convention is still focused on games, and not gay fan art and fan fiction(which I know it's not) then I think I would be plenty comfortable. At least as comfortable as someone who generally doesn't like crowds can be.
I've said before that I'm not bothered by any of this. I'm genuinly curious about how different it would be.
Against my better judgement I'm going to jump in and second this post. I've had gay friends in the past, and gay roommates as well. I was constantly in an environment where people's sexuality was different from my own. It didn't make me feel uncomfortable. The reason why I never felt uncomfortable is because the environments I was always in were never explicitly aimed at a sexuality. Now I've never been to one, but from what I understand a gaming convention isn't exactly a place where a sexuality of any kind is a driving force behind the meet-up or the content there. It's a convention about gaming...
If the gay, lesbian, and bisexual community want to have their own convention, then fine, but to me it seems like interjecting a specific sexual orientation into a convention about something completely unrelated muddles up the point of the convention in the first place, gay or straight. If you care about games, and you want to go to a gaming convention, why does the majority of the people's sexuality matter?
That's why I think this entire comic is sort of a nonissue. I'd also like to say that I've only seen a couple of these comics, but if these guys never get off their soapbox, then I won't be looking into any more of them. The smug tone of it all just turns me off.
While the motivations for wanting to go to a gaymer-con may not be clear to people. The only thing that really matters is that homosexual gamers themselves want to attend these conventions.
It's not like homosexual gamers are being forced to attend a Gaymer-con over a normal gamer-con. They're going because they wan't to. And in the end what more reason do you need for it to exist, then that there is a demand for it?
I just wish we could have more appealing to LGBT audiences within regular old Gaming Conventions. I'm sure the majority of people here who don't understand the reasons for Gaymercon are in exactly the same position - just wishing the two events could seamlessly combine without having to make a 'gay section' of the fanbase.
It's a shame we're not at that point yet, but I feel the reason why many people don't understand Gaymercon is that it makes the homosexual audiences in Gamescon even more invisible if some of the LGBT community is going elsewhere for their conventions. While I'm not going to pretend to understand the pressures that a homosexual, bisexual, or transsexual individual receives in such events (or in general life) I can at least say I'd much prefer a marching band of 'We're here, we're queer, get over it' through the 'regular' Gaming Conventions than seeing the same community funnelled into a different event and forgotten.
My two cents is that this can be a dangerous course to take. Humans have a long and sad history of turning specialty groups and events into exclusive groups and events. Acceptence has never been found by seperating one group from another.
Nonsense. Acceptance tends to increase as a direct consequence of greater cultural exposure - and nothing gives greater exposure than a highly publicized, public event. That's why when black people used to hold marches and protests, the result was a greater acceptance of black people. It didn't result in folks shaking their heads and going "why are blacks segregating themselves with 'black marches'?"
Besides, gay conventions (or for that matter, black protests) don't segregate. Heterosexuals are free to go to these events too. In fact it would be nice if people did, but heterosexuals tend to avoid going, for fear of being the odd one out, or feeling vulnerable (ironically what minorities tend to have to deal with on a regular basis).
A gay gamer convention is not a protest, And if a protest is the goal then they would be protesting at the current cons to air the greivences not making their own. I am referencing things like political and social groups that started out as a place where minorities gathered because they felt unwelcome and became minority exclusive. There are several polictical and social groups where this HAS happened. And has done nothing for acceptence and tolerance in the group where they felt they were not welcome.
Not sure what your intent for that post was since you're really making a terrible case for yourself when you say you're not judgey then randomly insult people with different theatrical tastes than you.
Oh no, I'm definitely judgmental, it's just I don't judge people on whether or not they fancy men, that doesn't really matter to me. I entirely reserve the right to hate people based on their opinions on theatre and their choice of clothes and all sorts of things.
I'm basically saying that I'm not specifically homophobic, I just hate a lot of stuff that typically (or stereotypically) gay people do.
Vault101 said:
Daveman said:
On the topic of not liking gay people, it's not that I don't like gay people, it's just I hate flamboyance. I hate really camp people that are straight too. I mean it's probably just that all the gay guys I've met have been preening arseholes, but I don't judge every gay based on those guys twattishness.
Not to be a dick lizard, but some of them probably just want their own con so they have a better chance of getting laid. I mean, it's in (or near) a hotel, right? (Not that there's anything wrong with that, a la Seinfeld. More power to them.)
Not to be a dick lizard, but some of them probably just want their own con so they have a better chance of getting laid. I mean, it's in (or near) a hotel, right? (Not that there's anything wrong with that, a la Seinfeld. More power to them.)
If that was the stated premise as to why they are making their own con, I wouldn't care less and more power to them. It is the premise that they are doing it becaue they feel alienated or made to feel uncomfortable at regular cons that alot of people have a problem with.
At first I thought the idea of a gay gamer con was silly, what do those have to do with each other and all that but thinking about it cons are about finding a place to fit in and I understand that it is nice to go to a place where everyone is of the same mind and that's what this is, a place where you can share a common interest and not worry about being judged for something, which does happen at least to a noticeable extent at several cons. It would be much better if there wasn't a need for Gaymercon but we aren't at the point yet.
Also your post under the comment is fine but the comic itself does a terrible job of making your point, talk about a slippery slope.
The 'segregation' argument from people baffles me. I mean, if you're going to look at it like that, surely gay pride parades/celebrations, or LGBT rights groups, or even university groups, of which I am involved in, would all also come under the same blanket.
It's nice to see that at least some people get it, its about fitting in, and to not have to worry about people treating you differently.
But they do come under the same blanket and are complained about and it's not about fitting in. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that gay people feel out of place at a fucking gaming convention, where nerds and outcasts parade around in bright costuming that they've spent a year creating.
Really? Gay pride and rights groups are not examples of 'segregation' and neither is a convention. Just because you aren't the target audience doesn't mean you're being segregated. Also, as someone who grew up openly gay, don't tell me where gay people may or may not feel out of place. I've been abused on the street for daring to walk holding hands with my girlfriend, so bigotry still exists wherever you are, and by extension, these things could also happen at gaming conventions. If you don't like the idea of Gaymercon, don't go. It's that simple.
Not to be a dick lizard, but some of them probably just want their own con so they have a better chance of getting laid. I mean, it's in (or near) a hotel, right? (Not that there's anything wrong with that, a la Seinfeld. More power to them.)
If that was the stated premise as to why they are making their own con, I wouldn't care less and more power to them. It is the premise that they are doing it becaue they feel alienated or made to feel uncomfortable at regular cons that alot of people have a problem with.
Oh, they just want lots of gay computer nerd hook ups?
Why didn't they just SAY so?
But seriously the whole thing is a bit depressing, it almost feels as though regular conventions have been insulting towards homosexuals in some manner. It's as though they don't want to hang out with the straight gamers anymore. They're gonna make their own convention. With black jack. And hookers.
Not sure what your intent for that post was since you're really making a terrible case for yourself when you say you're not judgey then randomly insult people with different theatrical tastes than you.
Oh no, I'm definitely judgmental, it's just I don't judge people on whether or not they fancy men, that doesn't really matter to me. I entirely reserve the right to hate people based on their opinions on theatre and their choice of clothes and all sorts of things.
I'm basically saying that I'm not specifically homophobic, I just hate a lot of stuff that typically (or stereotypically) gay people do.
Are you gay and forever uncomfortable? How much does a gay game convention differ from the more established conventions? And in what ways?
I obviously can't provide evidence for this, but as long as the convention is still focused on games, and not gay fan art and fan fiction(which I know it's not) then I think I would be plenty comfortable. At least as comfortable as someone who generally doesn't like crowds can be.
I've said before that I'm not bothered by any of this. I'm genuinly curious about how different it would be.
I'm not actually gay, but I was basing my comment on things my gay friends and sibling have told me. I do, however, have some similar experience; I'm no stranger to being the only atheist in a room full of Christians, for example, and it can get stressful at times, especially since I have to watch what I say because I'm not "out" to all my Christian friends. As to what would be different at a gay con, I don't know exactly, but I still say the best way to find out is to go to one and see for yourself.
As someone who's been involved with LGBT groups, I'm still a bit curious on the whole Gaymer thing.
I don't know, maybe it's just where I'm from, but there's very little discrimination towards gays or gay gamers for that matter considering that gaming has brought together so many of my friends.
I don't know. I'm just playing devil's advocate and am genuinely curious as to how this really works. I was not aware that gamers at default cons were so discriminating.
In relation to the trailers and box art, they're not appealing to straight white males, but rather to males in general. They show footage and images of attractive - sexy - males. That is, they're tall, muscular, tan, et cetera. Unless you're trying to say that gay males can't be muscular, which I very much doubt you're saying considering the tone of your post, I don't see how those trailers and box art apply. They do very much show how oriented towards males, and to whites, marketing is, though.
As for the Laura Croft/Nathan Drake angle, your analysis is completely true. In fact I'm only writing this because you forgot to mention that Nathan Drake is a sexy beast.
True, but the difference is how the attractiveness is portrayed. In the case of males, the attractiveness is simply another facet of who they are, it's part of the power fantasy for males ("play this game: feel hot and desirable!"), in the case of women, the attractiveness is highly emphasised and "put on display", so to speak, as an attempt to entice straight males. Nathan Drake might be a sexy beast, but in order to be comparable with Lara Croft, he should have been wearing something like this:
Tight, impractical, uncomfortable, minuscule, etc.
And even in the case where the male lead gets to show some skin, look at the poses in the DAO trailer, they have him be an arm, shoulder and head behind Morrigan, who is displaying her cleavage to the audience. I think there's a pose where we can see the side of his torso, but that's about it. It's not meant to entice women or gay men, it's meant to convey that your avatar will be attractive (among other things).
And yes, gay men do like the power fantasy, it's probably a big reason why we play videogames. The problem is that in many games, our power fantasy is annoyingly straight (not even bicurious!) and it shatters our immersion (and the point of the power fantasy) when that happens. That's just another way in which we are repeatedly told by the industry that it thinks we're invisible or not worth considering.
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Actually, I'm offering my opinion as a human being. If this con is about getting out and meeting other gay people in the context of a gaming convention, that's awesome. Conventions in general, for just about anything, tend to be hookup central anyway, and gay people have it harder with that by virtue of only making up 10% of the population. That wasn't a "gays are promiscuous" stereotype, it was a "people (period) hook up at conventions" truth.
The problem I have with this convention, is that's not what it's being framed as. It's being framed as this awesome step for gay rights, when it's really not. If anything, if that's the goal, it's a step back, not forward. Calling white privilege doesn't make my opinion on /that/ any less valid. For cryin' out loud, my parents (and therefore I) were heavily involved with the ACLU while I was growing up, and would be today if my mother and I weren't too busy completing our degrees (my Bachelors, her Law degree) to be involved. So not only have I lived activism, I've been formally trained on a lot of good ways to do it. Gone to Washington to lobby and everything. Plus, my degree is in social science ed -- I've studied a lot of this from an academic perspective, too. But I'm straight, so obviously my opinion doesn't count. Gotcha.
Edit: Hell, "Problem" is too strong of a word. I started out playing devil's advocate and pointing out that certain people who were defending it in the name of tolerance were being themselves intolerant. Then internet arguments being the polarizing cesspits they are, I wound up getting more and more personally invested in something that really, I don't give two craps about. It's a convention for gays, cool. That's not what really bothers me. What bothers me is people saying "well you're white, straight, and male, so even though you're a gamer who is involved enough in the hobby to be posting on a forum dedicated to it, and are therefore probably a huge nerd (which means you were also probably a social outcast growing up) you're straight, and therefore you know nothing about being a social outcast." Don't just call white privilege and be done with it if you want things to change. When you're talking to people with that privilege, try putting it into terms they can understand. Like, say, reminding a nerd of middle or high school bullying. They just might get it.
Listen. I will repeat myself, since it's not really coming across: I am not saying that this con is a step in the right direction for equality or inclusion. Some people might say that, but I don't. What I'm saying is that we want to decide this for ourselves. I think the point that you're missing here is that we live at the mercy of what straight people say and do. If it was up to us, gay marriage and adoption would be legalised worldwide. But it's not up to us, and that's the whole point: it's never up to us. The entire point of "this is none of your business" is to have one conversation of importance where straight people don't tell us what to do, if this is a right step for equality or not, and what we should think and feel about the subject. You may have the best intentions and qualifications, but the most respectful thing to do is to let us have what little power we can scrounge up, and let us decide for ourselves.
EDIT: I should apologise. I know this doesn't sound fair at all, but it's a matter of having at least one conversation of importance without straight people butting in just because they feel they should have an opinion on the matter. I know it sucks to be dismissed or ignored, but it's not a personal thing. This is, in a way, similar to the reason for having the con. It''s about having a space where straight people aren't the norm (after all, look at this thread: a lot of straight people are getting down on us because they feel excluded when they wouldn't give a rat's ass if WE felt excluded at regular cons) and don't dictate what to do or what to think. It's not that you can't understand or that you don't know what you're talking about. It's that we're damn tired of straight people butting in and telling us what is and is not best for us.
Can someone define "Kyriarchy" clearly? I went on wikipedia to look it up, but I didn't really understand. It was like reading jetpack instructions written in Japanese. I've gotten it somewhat from the context of other people's posts, but not completely.
Also, to tack back on to topic, gay conventions like these aren't about sexuality, they're about feeling "normal" for a change. Everywhere you go nearly everyone is straight, and even when it's not being talked about, if you're gay, there's always that lingering feeling that you aren't entirely a part of the group, unless the groups you run with are really odd already. At gay oriented conventions, you get to be normal for a change.
If you're a straight male and have any gay friends, go to a gay bar (bar, not club. Big difference). You have to go with a friend so that you don't get hit on, but you can't go with a straight friend as you would have someone on your side. It doesn't matter how liberal you are, you're going to feel weird, even though no one there will actually talk much or at all about their sexuality. And if you want to feel even weirder and more obvious, if you're white you can go to an Asian market. Don't bring an Asian friend for that one. Same feeling, just more pronounced.
I don't really agree. I'm straight; I've gone to a gay bar with a gay friend. I got hit on by less guys than at a regular rave. I wasn't uncomfortable at all, I just said I that I was straight and I was just out for a night with my friend. They understood and that was that.
Also, in my youth, I frequented Chinatown in Toronto all the time. I actually felt pretty welcome, even though I didn't speak Mandarin or Cantonese and I'm white. Most shopkeepers seemed delighted to share their food and culture with me, I actually got some really good prices on some cool rice scroll paintings. I still have them!
Certainly, it was somewhat of a culture shock. I didn't know what everything was (like those cool cubed coconuts with a straw) but I didn't feel like I was unwanted.
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