On Gaymers and Cons

[NoeL]

snip

Not to be rude, but you seem to have a very solid "us-vs-them" mentality in the way you speak, and I think it's doing more harm to your cause than good. You can't separate yourself based on sexuality so much and then expect people to not do the same to you.

 

[Darken12]

Okay, let me state off the bat that I'm not against an LGBT kind of gamer convention if they want one. But why, when searching for equality would you chose to make a convention made for LGBT community? Sure, while there may be undertones of heterosexual-ness in them, they are certainly NOT just for heteros...

The gaming industry is clearly aiming at the straight white male audience [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.397621-On-Gaymers-and-Cons?page=7#16241470]. Just because gay people aren't barred entry doesn't meant mregular cons aren't straight white male cons.

Do I sound like a misinformed bigot? Probably, I've developed a thick skin. A few, or even a lot of you probably know I'm a disabled person. It doesn't affect my speech or my mind, but my walking is horrendous. I need a waking frame for long distances outside, and my walking gait without it is very obvious without it. I have been bullied for it, left out, called names, everything under the sun for it.
For the longest time I thought I was bisexual.
Now this mixed with where you grew up or live are factors for my answers, and applied to each and every one of you, it would be the truth.
The gay people that I know have been arrogant entitled twats or confused fools that don't know what they want. For example, I had a gay best friend who eventually fell for me. I turned him down when he confessed to me since I had a girlfriend, and for weeks he would bring up how miserable he was over the whole thing and how badly he wanted to be with me. Eventually he ran away with my girlfriend at the time, and after her breaking up with him, he still calls himself gay.

How does this fit in?
I grew up where name calling (such as ****** and gay) means nothing. Strange looks, being treated different, in my world that is something I've had to live with. Sure, there are groups for disabled people, but I never feel comfortable in them, I don't like being singled out, I like to retain my 'normal cis scumness' or however much I have. This is why I don't understand such a need for one aimed at them, when something like the PlayStation Move or Kinect are unusable to me, and that some gameplay mechanics make games much more difficult to me (like rapidly tapping two buttons alternatively).
But who knows? Maybe I 'm bitter and hold a bias, I can't be the only one.

This is pretty much why I keep saying that the LGBT community ought to stand together instead of letting our differences tear us apart. Your gay friend was a dick, I won't deny that. And your position of wanting to blend in is perfectly acceptable and justified, but the position of the people who want gaymercon is just as valid and justified. Nobody is forcing you to go, and nobody's even forcing you to support them, but their choice to stand out is just as valid as yours to blend in.

Now I don't think you should change your mind or anything, but not everyone can or wants to or feels they should blend in. Just like they aren't saying that you should go to gaymercon if you don't want to, I don't think it's fair to expect people who don't want to blend in to do so.

snip

Not to be rude, but you seem to have a very solid "us-vs-them" mentality in the way you speak, and I think it's doing more harm to your cause than good. You can't separate yourself based on sexuality so much and then expect people to not do the same to you.

I don't think you're wrong. You may well be right. I admit, I snap into paladin mode when I feel someone is oppressing a minority. I crusade, I do.

But I am still absolutely against the idea that LGBT be told how to handle LGBT issues. I will do my best to try and be as diplomatic and civil about this as I possibly can, but the truth of the matter is that I'm completely convinced that LGBT people should be allowed to do whatever they feel is best without facing undue negativity from straight people who aren't affected at all by their actions.

 

[NoeL]

But I am still absolutely against the idea that LGBT be told how to handle LGBT issues. I will do my best to try and be as diplomatic and civil about this as I possibly can, but the truth of the matter is that I'm completely convinced that LGBT people should be allowed to do whatever they feel is best without facing undue negativity from straight people who aren't affected at all by their actions.

I guess where we differ is that I don't agree with your stance on moral relativism. I'm an objectivist, and concern myself with discovering the objectively better (i.e. objectively less oppression in an objectively shorter time frame) option and encouraging people to pursue that. If a section of a community is acting in a way that appears to be hurting their cause I have no issues with bringing that to their attention. Maybe all they needed was that difference in perspective to be able to reassess their actions and come up with much more effective campaign. I think that's much more useful than standing back shouting "You go girl!" while they run themselves into the ground.

 

[Darken12]

I guess where we differ is that I don't agree with your stance on moral relativism. I'm an objectivist, and concern myself with discovering the objectively better (i.e. objectively less oppression in an objectively shorter time frame) option and encouraging people to pursue that. If a section of a community is acting in a way that appears to be hurting their cause I have no issues with bringing that to their attention. Maybe all they needed was that difference in perspective to be able to reassess their actions and come up with much more effective campaign. I think that's much more useful than standing back shouting "You go girl!" while they run themselves into the ground.

I can't speak for everyone in the LGBT community (I think this might be a polarising issue), but I would rather drive myself to the ground on my own, and due to decisions I made, than arriving to a better place because I followed someone else's instructions.

I had this argument with classmates and coworkers in my field of work. I would much rather allow a patient to refuse treatment and watch them as they worsen or die, than to attempt to pressure/manipulate them or their families into accepting that treatment. For me, the principle of autonomy is absolute and supreme. All we take with us to our graves is the decisions we've made, and they're not fully your decisions if you blindly followed instructions.

So like I said, I would rather support the LGBT community in a potentially bad decision (that doesn't contradict my morals) than to try and dissuade them simply because it's not what I would do in their place.

 

[NoeL]

I guess where we differ is that I don't agree with your stance on moral relativism. I'm an objectivist, and concern myself with discovering the objectively better (i.e. objectively less oppression in an objectively shorter time frame) option and encouraging people to pursue that. If a section of a community is acting in a way that appears to be hurting their cause I have no issues with bringing that to their attention. Maybe all they needed was that difference in perspective to be able to reassess their actions and come up with much more effective campaign. I think that's much more useful than standing back shouting "You go girl!" while they run themselves into the ground.

I can't speak for everyone in the LGBT community (I think this might be a polarising issue), but I would rather drive myself to the ground on my own, and due to decisions I made, than arriving to a better place because I followed someone else's instructions.

I had this argument with classmates and coworkers in my field of work. I would much rather allow a patient to refuse treatment and watch them as they worsen or die, than to attempt to pressure/manipulate them or their families into accepting that treatment. For me, the principle of autonomy is absolute and supreme. All we take with us to our graves is the decisions we've made, and they're not fully your decisions if you blindly followed instructions.

So like I said, I would rather support the LGBT community in a potentially bad decision (that doesn't contradict my morals) than to try and dissuade them simply because it's not what I would do in their place.

Fair enough, and again we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this issue. If you're willing to let a selfish sense of pride take precedence over real and tangible benefits that's your prerogative, but I honestly hope you DON'T speak for the entire community because I think you'd be a horrendous spokesperson.

Also, I really don't think your doctor-patient analogy holds up, as affecting someone's body against their will is WILDLY different to suggesting a better alternative. I would say you have an obligation as a healthcare professional to educate the patient about different treatments and make strong, firm recommendations where possible. It's ridiculously irresponsible to just do whatever stupid quack treatment the ignorant patient read about on the internet. YOU are the doctor, YOU are responsible for their health, YOU have an obligation to do what it takes to heal them (excluding breaking the law, obviously).

 

[Polarity27]

I'm just curious... did anyone in these 14 pages mention the annoyance of being an LGBT gamer from the other end, i.e. how painfully ungeeky LGBT groups often are? I've tried to connect with the LGBT community in my area, and it's mostly about the bar/club scene. If you're older, disabled, and can't/don't drink, that's incredibly boring. I asked the bi women's group once if they had events, other than the meetup itself, that weren't bar-centric, and the conversation went like this:

"You don't go to bars?"

"No"

"Well, what do you DO?" (in this kind of astonished/horrified tone)

"Go to movies, discussion groups, once in a while a convention, and I play a lot of games"

"Well, there must be *some* kind of science fiction nerd club or something for people like you" (said very dismissively)

It comes down to a feeling that they're not really "my people"-- I'm not comfortable with them, sexual orientation is just not enough to have in common. But as a lot of other people mentioned, the casual homophobia at a regular gaming con is really off-putting (for me, the casual misogyny even more so). So I think it'd be awesome to have con space where everyone's geeky *and* you don't have to deal with the random homophobia. And don't count out the sexual element, a lot of people hook up at cons. A lot of people would find it a bonus to be able to flirt with someone without worrying whether they're going to be offended or openly disgusted (or, if you're a man, hit you) because you guessed wrong and they're straight.

 

[harmypants]

I can't speak for everyone in the LGBT community (I think this might be a polarising issue), but I would rather drive myself to the ground on my own, and due to decisions I made, than arriving to a better place because I followed someone else's instructions.

I had this argument with classmates and coworkers in my field of work. I would much rather allow a patient to refuse treatment and watch them as they worsen or die, than to attempt to pressure/manipulate them or their families into accepting that treatment. For me, the principle of autonomy is absolute and supreme. All we take with us to our graves is the decisions we've made, and they're not fully your decisions if you blindly followed instructions.

I think what Jerram means is that the idea of there being a flat choice of 1. Be told what to do, or 2. Be left to your own devices, is a dangerous way of filtering potential advice.

Without even considering the discussion in this topic, I certainly know if I was about to hurt myself and a student could tell me to stop because of concern I'd hear them out. Even if it turned out the concern they had was ignorant/irrelevant for whatever reason I'd certainly hear them out, simply out of mutual respect.
As much as people need to be able to make their own choices, they also need to be able to hear others. This is key to almost all positive human interaction.

This isn't to say you just lay down and let others trample you though, just to accept the possibility that those whom you believe you deserve respect from deserve some back.

I consider myself an ally to the existance of this con, and to the ideas it represents and the steps forward it's trying to make. These are all positive things. And while I'd like to support you aswell, I can't do so knowing that there is little chance of mutual respect. I'm not of the idea that someone can be infallible, regardless on their 'areas of expertise'.

I am most certainly for the idea of respect amongst peers, allies, friends and everywhere inbetween. However I'd find it to be of poor character if a friend felt the need to hold their tongue because they were afraid of offending me.

 

[DayDark]

My question is, will I be able to go to such events even though I'm straight? or will I be shunned upon for such a visit?

 

[Imp_Emissary]

My question is, will I be able to go to such events even though I'm straight? or will I be shunned upon for such a visit?

Apparently you can go to a gaymer-con even if your straight. (Unless you just want to go there to yell at gay people for being gay, of course.)

That's what it seems to set up as from what I'm reading anyway, but I don't know if they are all like that.

From what I can tell it's set up like this; You like games? You gay, or okay with gay people....existing? If so, come to a Gaymer-Con if you feel like it.

From that, I see no issue. >_< But it seems other people are still taking issue with that.

Oh well. More fun for Gay people, and their straight buddies.

:/ Wish I could go to ANY gamer-con at all. Maybe the next Escapist Expo. I NEED to go to one of those.

 

[Vault101]

[HEADING=2]THAT TIME IS OVER[/HEADING]

IT'S GENERALLY ACCEPTED THAT YOU SHOULDN'T CARE WHAT GENDER OR SEXUALITY SOMEONE IS.

A FUCKING HUUUGE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DO NOT SEGREGATE BASED ON SEXUALITY OR AT THE VERY LEAST BELIEVE IT IS WRONG TO DO SO.

THE FIGHT IS OVER.

STOP FIGHTING.

YOU'RE MAKING IT WORSE.
.

yeah...in a world where gay people can;t get married and people motivated by religion and even non-religous proplr still make like hard for them

keep dreaming

 

[Therumancer]

Hmmm, well, I have to say I disagree with the point of this most recent strip. Not so much because it's gays, but because I've always opposed "reverse discrimination" and the justifications behind it.

The basic arguement is that minorities need to do these kinds of things because of how much they feel like they stick out at general events (of whatever sort). In reality all it does is force division as opposed to assimilation, as well as promoting the idea that if your a minority your allowed to be exclusionary if nobody else can. Basically if you make a club and basically say "only white people can be members" that's racist and attacked, but if blacks do the same thing, that's not a problem. Basically saying that minorities effectively have special rights, simply based on their status, becoming in many respects an elite that doesn't have to follow the general rules. The arguements behind why this occurs are well known, but the bottom line is that the point of having laws, including anti-discrimination laws is for them to apply to everyone. You shouldn't selectively apply them for minorities forcing themselves into the majority, and then not apply them when a minority wants to force the majority out. It doesn't matter if your gay, hispanic, black, a follower of a specific religion, or whatever else.

Some argue "I don't get it" but the thing is I do. Well intentioned or not, things like this actually hamper the overall objective of assimilating minorities into the mainstream. The idea is to stop mainstream rejection, but also to put an end to minority counter-culture that causes them to not fit in as well. Both ends being pushed together towards the middle so to speak.

At any rate, my personal opinion about "gays" aside, my thought about this is pretty much the same thing as the attempts to have "Gay Games" as an alternative to the Olympics. It's a bad joke disguised as being socially relevent. It doesn't matter what group is doing it.

See, to an extent the gays just created a situation where it's hard to justify why you can't have a straights only gamer convention, and tell gays to "go to your own con, when you have it". Unless your a dangerously naive pro-minority bigot, you can see why the laws and standards need to go both ways. If you support the group in question you should realize your best interests are to prevent stunts like this.

-

I'll also say I did find the Shaolin referance kind of amusing, it wasn't that long ago when I was basically argueing against the sanctity of churches in the US when it comes to legal searches and such due to a seperation of church and state. Meaning that I don't care if it's Baptist or a Mosque, the police should be able to treat it just like anywhere else (with the standards depending on whether it's publically accessible, or private, like many other businesses).

The intent wasn't the same, but the bottom line is it made me think of "well, why do seperate religions all want special treatment", and how I was just argueing they might want it, but they shouldn't get it. That includes my own religion, I'm a Christian, but this isn't a Christian theocracy, and I have to hold the Catholics/Protestants/etc... to the same standards I think need to be used for Muslims and Cultists.

 

[sadmac]

Looking at the comic... did he just compare being gay to a religion? And then compare it to a gender?

*headdesk*

He's not comparing homosexuality to any of those things, he's using different situations to point out how silly the mentality is.

Those situations have to be intrinsically similar for his comparison to make sense.

 

[vgmaster831]

Consider that cons, especially gaming cons, are meant not only to be a showcase for games, but also the culture of gamers. Gay gamers, myself included, have a culture all their own. It's not separate from gaming culture at large, but it has many unique facets and is different enough that Gaymercon is at least warranted, if not essential.

As a general rule, I try not to make judgements about the wants and desires of groups of which I am not a part. I may not attend any LGBT gamer cons, but I definitely see the need for them. If you don't see the need for them, then there is no need to bring it up.

 

[Therumancer]

[HEADING=2]THAT TIME IS OVER[/HEADING]

IT'S GENERALLY ACCEPTED THAT YOU SHOULDN'T CARE WHAT GENDER OR SEXUALITY SOMEONE IS.

A FUCKING HUUUGE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DO NOT SEGREGATE BASED ON SEXUALITY OR AT THE VERY LEAST BELIEVE IT IS WRONG TO DO SO.

THE FIGHT IS OVER.

STOP FIGHTING.

YOU'RE MAKING IT WORSE.
.

yeah...in a world where gay people can;t get married and people motivated by religion and even non-religous proplr still make like hard for them

keep dreaming

Pretty much. The United States is pretty much divided 50-50 on the subject, despite some legal legislation going in this direction there is a lot of fallout given that it's not happening due to a clear majority. Outside of the US while some first world nations have become very gay-tolerant, the majority of the planet isn't, with something like 80% or more of the world's women living as second class citizens despite attempts at reforms (consider India and China both make up 1/3rd of the human race pretty much, so 2/3rds there before you go into The Middle East, Africa, South and Central America where Machismo is alive and well, and so on), homosexuality has it even worse, through a lot of the world there aren't even any real legal considerations or time to ponder "rights" gays are discovered and it's over with pretty quickly and brutally.

I can understand where the guy your responding to comes from though, after all if he calls heavily liberal sites like this one as a matter of coruse, it's easy to totally dismiss the other side or how extensive and powerful it is, or really understand all the issues with the gay rights laws in a nation that is supposed to value democracy (a lot of reforms are called into question simply due to stepping on the will of the majority in specific areas, as well as violating certain parts of the process of law, which can get complicated).

In the end I'm admittedly anti-gay men, one of a minority here. I won't argue my sentiments, especially seeing as I'm pretty much agreeing with you as far as this thread goes (which I'm not going to go beyond).

To be honest with you, I half expect there to be a civil war before mainstream acceptance of homosexuals accross the US occurs. The civil war won't occur specifically over that issue, but because right now the country is divided 50-50 between the two major political positions and the associated issues. Obama won his last election by like 3% and even that's debatable, and it's the latest of a long line of "razor's edge" elections. It won't happen during his term, but given that he's been doing everything in his power to piss off the opposition and not compromise, it's just going to get worse. 10-20 years from now if things don't change on a general level (that's like 4-5 elections) issues like gun control, pro choice/pro-life, homosexuals, immigration, and other hot button issues are cumulatively going to cause
one side or the other to "take back the country" by force, as time goes on despite being seperate issues your finding all of that becoming increasingly tied together, fair or not. I consider gay rights a mild issue compared to say gun control or immigration (ie I'd freely accept homosexuals long before I'd give up on either of those two other issues which are a far bigger deal to me, despite how things might seem on these forums when they get moving), but right now everything is increasingly going together as both parties are being forced to close ranks tighter together to remain competitive due to how incredibly close everything is.

So basically yeah... it's not "over" not by a long shot. We're pretty much on the opposite sides here, but we can both agree with that. Sadly, I just think things are going to get nastier accross the spectrum until they finally burst. I'm not looking forward to a civil war or anything (I'm highly nationalistic when you get down to it, and a civil war would decimate the country's global standing) but I can recognize the signs (as have some other people I've talked to), to be honest it's bloody amazing the US has gone this long without a civil war in this climate. In Africa, South and Central America, Asia.. etc... people would have started shooting each other en-masse long before now. Our social values and identity might have held it off longer than most, but I don't think we're immune.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

1.your [b/]never[/b] going to stop people being gay

2.you may as well say you have a problem with BDSM or Anal because thats what it comes down to ultimatly, having a personal issue with whos fucking who and how

 

[UniversalRonin]

Can I just say that this is entirely too ridiculous that the thread has gone on for as long as it has?

This entire discussion can boil down to the following:

Gay gamers want their own little sandbox, so they made one. With their own money. Who on Earth are you to say they can't have it?

When you boil it down like that it seems rather simple, doesn't it? If you don't like the idea of Gaymercon then don't go. But just because there exists a place on earth where you are not the target audience does not give you any rights over it. And if the outcomes of the discussion don't effect you, then you have NO PLACE in the discussion.

End of story.

Seriously this is getting ridiculous. This thread has over 460 replies and you wonder why we feel like we're sick of being controversial and want to be the normal ones for a change?

Let me make an analogy.

It's like if you have some siblings and between you and your siblings you own a toy. I'm your best friend from school and we often play with your toy, but sometimes your big brother is a massive jerk to me, and sometimes I just like to play with my brother instead so I buy myself a toy that's similar to your toy, but mine is a different colour that me and my little brother like more but you don't.

I don't stop coming 'round to play with you, I just play with my little brother as well. Then you come 'round to my house and start getting offended by me owning my own toy. "I always let you play with mine! What's wrong with my toy?" you ask. And the answer is nothing. Nothing is wrong with your toy. The fact that you always let me borrow/play with your toy doesn't mean I can't have my own. And if I buy my own, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with yours. I might like the colour of mine better, or not want to play with your jerk of a brother. You're still my best friend, and we'll still hang out. Me having other friends and other toys doesn't mean I'm going to stop being your best friend, and I find it stupid that you think we're going to segregate myself in my room just because I spend some time there.

This is a ridiculous argument to be having.

Just let me have my toy.

As I said somewhere back in the first 3/4 pages. These special interest groups form naturally in any society from a casual book club to a masonic lodge. They're perfectly normal and I don't understand how we ended up with 460ish posts worth about it. (That said The Redundancy Monster has been fairly active the whole way through this thread.)

EDIT- Apparently it's 490ish posts about it.

 

[Not Matt]

i kind of sort of agree with this guy. in the same why that i kind of sort of agree with the daleks that the doctor is dangerous. why? doesn't this just split the gay and the straight gaminig community even more?


EDIT: just came to think about something. what about bisexuals?

 

[wizzy555]

Has anyone pointed out in the thread that over 10 years ago the social justice warriors were calling for unisex bath rooms?

 

[mjc0961]

I don't care if gay gamers want their own convention. Have at it.

I just want to strangle kittens whenever I see the abomination of the English language that is the term "gaymer". Please, for the love of everything wonderful about gaming, stop using that. Have all the conventions you want, just please stop with that... "word".

Looking at the comic... did he just compare being gay to a religion? And then compare it to a gender?

*headdesk*

That's kind of funny I hadn't realized just how blatantly poor the comparisons are until you pointed it out.
The comparison isn't the point though, it's the portrayed half-wit who's being a dick, for the sake of it.
What the writer and artist fails to realize that this is a sign of progress and not blatant bigotry

I wrote this in my first response, the comic is bad in so many ways. This is definitely another point.

Yeah, the comic itself is pretty terrible. The point it's trying to make is a good one, but the way it's getting to that point... Just awful. It's so bad that it reminds me of people trying to compare everything to cars. Trying to make a point about used games? Do it horribly by comparing them to used cars. Trying to make a point about review scores? Do it horribly by comparing them to cars (yes, somebody did this, go read the comments of the recent Jimqusition episode on review scores). In fact, I'm surprised this comic didn't have a panel comparing being gay to having a car.

Again, yeah, the point is supposed to be how stupid the guy being a dick is, and it's a good point, but they way they got there is horrible.

 

[Whispering Death]

I'm just curious... did anyone in these 14 pages mention the annoyance of being an LGBT gamer from the other end, i.e. how painfully ungeeky LGBT groups often are? I've tried to connect with the LGBT community in my area, and it's mostly about the bar/club scene. If you're older, disabled, and can't/don't drink, that's incredibly boring. I asked the bi women's group once if they had events, other than the meetup itself, that weren't bar-centric, and the conversation went like this:

Yeah being gay is really strange experience altogether. In every other minority group you grow up around others like you; if you're African-American you likely have an African-American family and maybe live in a African-American part of town, if you're Mormon you probobly grew up going to a Mormon church.

If you're a geeky white guy maybe you grow up playing videogames and, surprise, there's lots of other geeky white guys playing videogames. If you're African-American maybe you grow up listening to Jay-Z music because those around you listen to that artist and, surprise, you find there's lots of African-Americans that like Jay-Z too. You grow up with interests, hobbies, and personality traits that are shaped by the ethic/minority/religious identity.

By contrast, being gay is a very individual experience. When you're gay you likely do not experience significant numbers of other gay people until you're 16, 18, 20, 24, 28. Your interests, hobbies, and personality are well shaped by then. There are as many gay people that like Jay-Z as like Metallica. As many gay people that are geeky gamers as are jocks with no time for geeky nonsense.

The only commonality that all individuals of all backgrounds share in their sexuality. So, unsurprisingly, the gay-culture activities revolve around sex - clubs, dancing, drinking, AIDS support/treatment, marriage equality. But such a scene is not always appropriate for all individuals.

This is why I like the idea of the Gaymer-Con or whatever they're calling it. While I have no interest in participating I do like the idea of our community trying to do more to encourage social interaction among our members that are not well served through historical LGBT cultural outlets.