On Nazis
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I would like to say that a WWII game where you kill Nazis, BUT also goes out of it's way to portray the Nazis as everyday people committing evil acts because of manipulation and circumstances, with emphasis on how such actions could happen in any country, yet you still had to kill them anyways for the sake of the greater good, would be pretty amazing.
I don't know why it came to mind but I am reminded of a story...
After the great escape, and if you don't know what that is then educate yourself, they hunted down the SS officers responsible to bring to justice. The more the team assigned to the rounding up of these men investigated the more they realised the whole thing was a 'grey topic' and the more they felt sorry for the SS officers involved. Well most of the people involved, there where more then enough psychopaths that loved the freedom to kill the SS badge gave them.
Yes, these are officers that killed POW in cold blood and the investigators where feeling bad for them. It was so clear to them that the SS officers where just as much of a victim to this unlawful and hideous order. They had no choice but to obey, it was a death sentence to not do so and would of been carried out on the spot. Too many only just wanted to get back to their families alive and where eaten alive inside by what they had to do just to make it so.
Oh and the icing of this cake. One such officer did NOT kill the POW he was told to kill. He didn't want to do it and 'fumbled' with his weapon, probably trying to find a way out of the order. Being cursed out by his superior the weapon was ripped from his hands and the POW killed with it. This story was confirmed, when they caught his superior who was very proud of the crimes he commited and willing to curse this act of 'cowardice,' lamenting that he should of killed both of them.
Still the Brits hanged the guy! Even though he had commited no murder and was disgusted at what he was ordered to do all the Brits cared about was the illusion of 'justice.' He was SS and that was good enough for them.
On the matter of the illusion of justice, the saying 'victor writes history' is fact. If you look back to what the tactics the allied used you can see they where no different to what the Germans where being prosecuted for. Deliberate targeting of civilians was ordered, and carried out, by many branches of the Allied military! For example failing to bomb German factories due to the limitation of the weapons of the era, it was blind luck if you hit one, the British and US forces decided they needed to blow up the innocent citizens to 'break their moral' and commited themselves to carpet bombing cities even if there was no direct tactical advantage to doing so.
It isn't the fact murder is wrong and should be punished, if that was the case many Allied leaders would of been standing beside the German ones on trial. No, murder is well and good... as long as you win the war.
After the great escape, and if you don't know what that is then educate yourself, they hunted down the SS officers responsible to bring to justice. The more the team assigned to the rounding up of these men investigated the more they realised the whole thing was a 'grey topic' and the more they felt sorry for the SS officers involved. Well most of the people involved, there where more then enough psychopaths that loved the freedom to kill the SS badge gave them.
Yes, these are officers that killed POW in cold blood and the investigators where feeling bad for them. It was so clear to them that the SS officers where just as much of a victim to this unlawful and hideous order. They had no choice but to obey, it was a death sentence to not do so and would of been carried out on the spot. Too many only just wanted to get back to their families alive and where eaten alive inside by what they had to do just to make it so.
Oh and the icing of this cake. One such officer did NOT kill the POW he was told to kill. He didn't want to do it and 'fumbled' with his weapon, probably trying to find a way out of the order. Being cursed out by his superior the weapon was ripped from his hands and the POW killed with it. This story was confirmed, when they caught his superior who was very proud of the crimes he commited and willing to curse this act of 'cowardice,' lamenting that he should of killed both of them.
Still the Brits hanged the guy! Even though he had commited no murder and was disgusted at what he was ordered to do all the Brits cared about was the illusion of 'justice.' He was SS and that was good enough for them.
On the matter of the illusion of justice, the saying 'victor writes history' is fact. If you look back to what the tactics the allied used you can see they where no different to what the Germans where being prosecuted for. Deliberate targeting of civilians was ordered, and carried out, by many branches of the Allied military! For example failing to bomb German factories due to the limitation of the weapons of the era, it was blind luck if you hit one, the British and US forces decided they needed to blow up the innocent citizens to 'break their moral' and commited themselves to carpet bombing cities even if there was no direct tactical advantage to doing so.
It isn't the fact murder is wrong and should be punished, if that was the case many Allied leaders would of been standing beside the German ones on trial. No, murder is well and good... as long as you win the war.
The actual reason why all this Nazis are bad crap is always coming out is because its important to keep the Germans feeling guilty about their past so that bs amount of reperations can be leeched from the German Government.
The most recent is
Israel to seek another 1b euros Holocaust in reparations from Germany
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html
The reality is the Nazis kicked ass, even Edward VIII the King of England thought so, until he decided to Marry an American hooker and was abdicated.
The most recent is
Israel to seek another 1b euros Holocaust in reparations from Germany
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html
The reality is the Nazis kicked ass, even Edward VIII the King of England thought so, until he decided to Marry an American hooker and was abdicated.
There are games where you can play as WW2 German combatants - off the top of my head, the Silent Hunter submarine sims, and Il-2 Sturmovik where you can fly most of the Luftwaffe's aircraft (and everyone else's too)
Yes, the Third Reich is overplayed. But there are alternatives. How about a game where Hitler is averted and the Nazi party never rises, and Germany rebuilds and defies the harsh Versailles treaty peacefully and without much blind ideology, and then Bulgaria invades Yugoslavia to recover the Southern Dobrudja region it lost at Versailles?
Or how about a WW2 game where you play the flag-waving Allied troops as normal, but you're fighting Hungarians or Italians or Romanians somewhere in eastern Europe?
Yes, the Third Reich is overplayed. But there are alternatives. How about a game where Hitler is averted and the Nazi party never rises, and Germany rebuilds and defies the harsh Versailles treaty peacefully and without much blind ideology, and then Bulgaria invades Yugoslavia to recover the Southern Dobrudja region it lost at Versailles?
Or how about a WW2 game where you play the flag-waving Allied troops as normal, but you're fighting Hungarians or Italians or Romanians somewhere in eastern Europe?
Well, Yahtzee bashing aside, the article makes a fair point that many videogames set in the Second World War go the easy route, setting Nazis up as the villains and just having done with it.
But that aside, the Second World War is also one of the most powerful storytelling backdrops in history, and Nazism is a fundamental part of it. The trick with Nazis, if you ask me, is unlike - as Yahtzee put it - having to actually portray them as bad guys, you have to deploy them very carefully as part of a larger setting.
I think a very compelling game set during the war would be one that focusses on something entirely other than the Nazis, and merely lets their sheer, overwhelming influence, power and control during that period of history speak for itself. There was very little at that time 'could be done without the Nazis being involved in some way after all. Then they'd go from a cheap badguy to another part of the flavour.
I guess an example might be Indiana Jones.. at least sort of. In those films, it was less a case of 'Nazis are badguys because Nazis are evil' and more a case of 'Nazis are badguys because during the period when pulp-style archaeological adventuring was even vaguely possible, they were all over the freaking planet and interfering with everyone and everything'. Or of course, there's 'Allo 'Allo, where the Nazis were everywhere, but the story never shot one of them, ever - it was a simple fact that, comedy though the series may be, should the character ever go one step too far on their oppressors, they'd all be dead, end of story, and that was a necessary part of the setting and the series' success.
But that aside, the Second World War is also one of the most powerful storytelling backdrops in history, and Nazism is a fundamental part of it. The trick with Nazis, if you ask me, is unlike - as Yahtzee put it - having to actually portray them as bad guys, you have to deploy them very carefully as part of a larger setting.
I think a very compelling game set during the war would be one that focusses on something entirely other than the Nazis, and merely lets their sheer, overwhelming influence, power and control during that period of history speak for itself. There was very little at that time 'could be done without the Nazis being involved in some way after all. Then they'd go from a cheap badguy to another part of the flavour.
I guess an example might be Indiana Jones.. at least sort of. In those films, it was less a case of 'Nazis are badguys because Nazis are evil' and more a case of 'Nazis are badguys because during the period when pulp-style archaeological adventuring was even vaguely possible, they were all over the freaking planet and interfering with everyone and everything'. Or of course, there's 'Allo 'Allo, where the Nazis were everywhere, but the story never shot one of them, ever - it was a simple fact that, comedy though the series may be, should the character ever go one step too far on their oppressors, they'd all be dead, end of story, and that was a necessary part of the setting and the series' success.
What kills me about Nazi's...
Back when "Toy Story" yes toy story was made on ps1. The Mexican population of America had a fit when you had to defeat a toy "Bandito" with sumbrao and all with nerf darts. And they called it "Virtual Genocide"
Yet we allow generation after generation pretty much the AOK to kill a german because of Nazis 60 years ago.
You know that in it's own right disturbs me the most. The ultimate murdered enemy, and it's ok because a long long time ago they did bad things to people. So we need to keep a steady history of killing them back...
Back when "Toy Story" yes toy story was made on ps1. The Mexican population of America had a fit when you had to defeat a toy "Bandito" with sumbrao and all with nerf darts. And they called it "Virtual Genocide"
Yet we allow generation after generation pretty much the AOK to kill a german because of Nazis 60 years ago.
You know that in it's own right disturbs me the most. The ultimate murdered enemy, and it's ok because a long long time ago they did bad things to people. So we need to keep a steady history of killing them back...
This was an excellent little essay on Nazis.
Especially liked "I'd say they were pretty flat characters, if they hadn't actually been real."
Yep. Games need depth, games need less Nazis. I always liked Gal Civ 2 for providing that. Questioning of actions and motives along with the course of galactic conquest. Seeing two cultures bleed into one-another's air space and then inevitably into conflict. Trying to secure peace and stability without killing billions. Asking those questions of am I doing the right thing by spreading the culture of my peadophile federation to multiple star systems, and causing civil war and hostility. Big questions.
Especially liked "I'd say they were pretty flat characters, if they hadn't actually been real."
Yep. Games need depth, games need less Nazis. I always liked Gal Civ 2 for providing that. Questioning of actions and motives along with the course of galactic conquest. Seeing two cultures bleed into one-another's air space and then inevitably into conflict. Trying to secure peace and stability without killing billions. Asking those questions of am I doing the right thing by spreading the culture of my peadophile federation to multiple star systems, and causing civil war and hostility. Big questions.
Censors can't complain about corrupting the children because installing the adult content becomes a choice made by responsible human beings, as alien a concept as that might be to the Australian government.
Instead of choosing it install "adult" DLC into a game. How about people choose to not buy the 18 rated game for their underage childern.
instead of blaming things on the game why not jail the smacktard parents who bought the ineproprit game for their spawn?
Or is this just wishful thinking on my part?
Instead of choosing it install "adult" DLC into a game. How about people choose to not buy the 18 rated game for their underage childern.
instead of blaming things on the game why not jail the smacktard parents who bought the ineproprit game for their spawn?
Or is this just wishful thinking on my part?
I actually read the entire thread to make sure it didn't, and you beat me to it. One thing people forget is Nazi was a political party. It's like calling all American soldiers democrats. Not every German soldier was a member of the nazi party, and for all you people who didn't know, Charles Lindberg, yes the great American hero famous for being the first man to fly across the Atlantic, praised Hitler for his manufacturing techniques and economic policies.Nunny said:
