Piracy Numbers

RJ Dalton

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I still have my doubts about the accuracy of the numbers. The fact that so many diverse companies come to so near the same number and one so unbelievably high makes me doubtful, but that's just my paranoia. What makes me reasonably doubtful is the fact that I have no idea how they gather these statistics. What is the process? What methods do they use? Statisticians and businesses are notorious for using questionable methods when they want to make a point, or outright making up the numbers on the spot to suit their needs. I really don't buy their claim that they have an accurate idea of how often their stuff is pirated.
 

Undead_David

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@benoitowns
I am the same, the games I pirated were games I was never going to buy in the first place. They were simply to bide my time till I had the cash to buy the games I really wanted like Borderlands, and right now Im going to buy ME2 when I get paid on Monday. If DRM worked in an ideal world, those companies would still not have my money lol
 

fenrizz

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Wicky_42 said:
Same here, although if I see said item in a shop then I won't hesitate to buy it.

I wish I could find an ISO for FF7 though. I want to know what makes it better than 8 or Legend of Dragoon.
I got FF7 trough the PS3 Store, cheap.
great game.
 

Chipperz

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Undead_David said:
@Chipperz
Have you plaid Halo online at all? Or any FPS on live, lol of course its mostly flowing from the mouths of kids of havent left HS yet lol
benoitowns said:
*snip*
Most importantly, I am absolutely shocked you haven't seen those dicks on XBL, they are everywhere. Go borrow a copy of Halo or something.
Just taking this because, to be honest, I played Halo 3 for the first... Four weeks it was out? 95% of the players on any given Halo match were completely silent for most of the game, and I used the mute function on a few of the others because it was being triggered by their breathing or music they were listening to. I dunno, maybe the evil trolls all listen to music or breathe like a paedophile in a nursery and just start up towards the end of the game, but I've honestly never noticed it.

Same on Call of Duty 4. Everyone keeps telling me that's full of trolls, but I've had a few times when I've had messages from people complementing my game, if only because when everyone else on my side ragequits, I stick it out to the bitter end. I've always been of the understanding that it's the other way round, especially seeing as I can't shoot for shit and I'm quite an abrasive person anyway.

Conversely, everyone keeps telling me that the PC is populated by players who are calm, genteel and ever so friendly, but Dawn of War and Warcraft 3 players waste no time telling me I'm shit and they hope I die. Maybe it's just me (I've never heard a good story about Battle.net though, so I accept that it's not an accurate depiction of PC gamers. DoW, though!?).

Anyway, this is a derailment, so, uhh, how about them Ubisoft DRMs? Glad I rented me Assassin's Creed for the PS3!
 

Callate

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The sea of numbers doesn't tell us much. I'd really love to hear more than anecdotal information about people who download games from torrents and then purchase them later if they deem them worthwhile; I don't doubt the stories of those who claim to be such, but I suspect they're the minority. (But I would like to hear a more statistical analysis, as difficult as I recognize usable numbers on such a thing would be to obtain.)

My understanding is that significant part of what inspired CD Projekt to creat Good Old Games (GOG) was that in their native Poland piracy was so rampant that one was far more likely to run across a pirated version of a game, one way or another, than a legitimate one, and that incomes in Poland were generally quite low and so piracy was the only way a lot of people were ever going to get to play the games at all.

This somewhat leads to the question: recognizing that piracy numbers are high, how many of those pirated copies are in the hands of people who simply don't have either the ability or the funds to obtain a legitimate copy of the game in question? The "100 to 1" inability to pirate-to-legitimate sale hints at this somewhat, but it doesn't color in the lines. The street hawker in a bazaar in Baghdad and the rich teenager pulling games off a torrent in Los Angeles may both be pirates, but throwing them into the same statistical group only muddies the issue.

I'd also love to see an article about all the other reasons PC gaming is taking a beating compared to console gaming. Yes, piracy is an issue, but it's also become a whipping boy. The relative ease of creating something on the platform ought, one would think, to mean a wide variety of games; instead, people pay up for expensive developer's kits in order to design for widely available, standardized hardware that's well understood on the consumer level. PC versions of games are often the best versions, and usually have the potential to be even when they're not. But we often seem to be stuck in an endless cycle where PC gamers complain about botched versions of the games they love, or features they're used to being left on the cutting room floor, or rushed ports that bring every weakness of the console they were made for and add some bugs as well... And the developers sigh, look how much work they put into those ports, note the poor sales compared to every other version they've released, and quietly wonder if they'll bother next time. The big players like Microsoft haven't done the industry or the consumer a lot of favors: Games for Windows looks increasingly like a conspiracy to widen the acceptance of the 360 controller as a standard more than anything else, and the PC version of Live mostly stands out as one more alternative in a sea of noncompatable multiplayer matchmaking services. And God help you if your development cycle overlaps the release of a new OS or a new version of Direct X.

Part of my love of the PC stems from my understanding of its guts: I know a fair amount about computers, I grew up with them, and I usually feel that what I don't understand is available to me if I'm willing to put in the time and effort. With consoles, there's a sense of the developers as gods on high deigning to provide the fruit of their wizardry to the peons who could never do as much. While that sense is diminishing, it seems likely that the closed and proprietary nature of consoles will always put a buffer between developers and consumers. The significantly lower barrier between the two on the PC probably plays a part in piracy, but it also creates an unusual sense of community, I think, especially in slightly older gamers such as myself. I might not be a Monet or a Da Vinci, but I can see how they used a brush and I can at least buy paints and try to imitate their work, to gain an understanding of the underlying technique and to make reasonable and intelligent criticisms of their work that's more like sitting at the same table than calling up to the mountain, if that makes sense.
 

esin

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RJ Dalton said:
I still have my doubts about the accuracy of the numbers.
Everyone should have doubts about the accuracy of the numbers. Not to say I support piracy, but the Crusaders are so quick to accept numbers from sources that could easily have a vested interest in skewing or outright falsifying the data.
 

Magnalian

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I'm not entirely sure how it works, but apparently there are some loopholes in the Dutch laws which make it possible to legally download movies and music, only uploading is illegal. This will provide some problems for you if you dare take an I-pod/MP3 player to, say, the US, and there's a bunch downloaded MP3's on there. In that case, Border patrol or whoever checks these things will want to have a chat with you, and they have every right.

As far as downloading games goes, I think that one IS still illegal here, though people don't seem to mind that as much -.- I know several people who download DS games instead of buying them and don't think twice about it. I don't guilt them about it, but I wonder why they don't see anything wrong with this.

I'm a little weird when it comes to these things. I don't pirate movies or games, but I do music. Not that I have anything against the musicians/producers/etc. who put so much effort into it, but I just can't afford to buy every song I have right now. I don't know why games and movies are so different to me in this respect, they just are.
 

geldonyetich

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dochmbi said:
Piracy is stealing only if you accept the concept of intellectual property.
And if you don't accept the concept of intellectual property, good luck eating if your career is as a producer of it.
 

shadow skill

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John Funk said:
If you don't have the money to buy all the games you want, how about you...

...don't play them until you DO have the money? Save up? Work a second job to fund your hobby? You know, the things people do when they AREN'T accustomed to everything being free?

Therumancer said:
I say this because more and more producers are lining up to invest in games, and the profit margins continue to increase. Sure lame titles still fail, but the bottom line is that the gaming industry is hardly suffering. Itigaki was in a fight with Team Ninja to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, and Richard Garriot who made his bones before gaming was anywhere near as big as it is now managed to buy one of those uber-expensive space tourist flights. Not to mention the fact that these huge development budgets are largely spent on human resources, leading to me constantly talking about how I very much doubt rank and file coders and artists are anywhere near honest in how much they get paid.

The industry makes these massive truckloads of money, and still tries to nickel and dime us. Even if what they said about piracy was true, does it really matter at this point? In the end DRM is basically an attempt to squeeze as much money out of the consumer base as possible, because heck... even if they are wrong, if it gets even a few people to buy the game rather than pirate that's a win.... little extra to spread on the top of the already skyscraper sized Scrooge Mcduck money bin.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the profit margin is actually much, much smaller than you imagine. You doubt rank and file coders and artists are honest in how much they get paid? Yeah, because a giant mass conspiracy is a whole lot easier than you just being wrong.
When you consider the fact that the numbers don't make any sense it becomes much more plausible that those individuals using this figure have a similar agenda. You think insurance companies don't fund misleading ads?
 

RJ Dalton

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esin said:
RJ Dalton said:
I still have my doubts about the accuracy of the numbers.
Everyone should have doubts about the accuracy of the numbers. Not to say I support piracy, but the Crusaders are so quick to accept numbers from sources that could easily have a vested interest in skewing or outright falsifying the data.
Exactly. I will fervently get on the case of someone who pirates a game to play it because he doesn't want to spend money because that does hurt the company that made it. My response to really stupid anti-piracy protections that punish the game is to simply not buy the game. That is the proper form of protest. Sure, it means I'll never play games like Bioshock or Assassin's Creed 2, except at a friend's house maybe, but it means I get to punish the game companies for trying to fuck me over without opening myself up to lawsuit and as a bonus I get to claim moral high ground.
 

dochmbi

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geldonyetich said:
dochmbi said:
Piracy is stealing only if you accept the concept of intellectual property.
And if you don't accept the concept of intellectual property, good luck eating if your career is as a producer of it.
Indeed. I want to see the downfall of the entire entertainment / culture industry. If tomorrow everyone decided to stop buying anything of that nature and start pirating, it would be wonderful. Now culture would be produced solely by volunteer work or funded by donations and foundations and people would be unrestrained and free to develop whatever derivative works they pleased.
 

Sutures

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Lord Krunk said:
SnipErlite said:
Pirates are thieves. Simple as.

I only pirate games I cannot physically get, like Sim City 2000 or Aladdin (ie. old classics)

So I'm a mini-thief, I admit.
Same here, although if I see said item in a shop then I won't hesitate to buy it.

I wish I could find an ISO for FF7 though. I want to know what makes it better than 8 or Legend of Dragoon.

Dang... maybe its time to drop some old games on ebay. How many Hamiltons could I get for SimCity 2K?
 

FoolKiller

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wow... I just spent a long time reading all the comments.

My conclusion: I will stick with console gaming.
 

Calhoun347

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Ne1butme said:
How effective is Steam integration in reducing piracy? I've never heard the numbers on a game released exclusively through steam (or requiring steam to play online). Did TF2 or L4D have substantial piracy rates (a la Spore or Demigod)?
They do, but because of constant updates. The online portions (Read: The Game) is only possible to be played on specific servers. That said, every once in a while a new version will be released with the updates (That is cracked), but the next update comes along, and then it's right back to square one.

I love Steam, I love Valve, and i think they have the most effective and least-restricted solution. I've got about 140 games on it, and I've never thought of steam as DRM, in the manner that DRM is restrictive and inconveniencing. The only negative point is you have to be online before launching in offline mode. But that's not a big deal if your planning ahead.

Basically, The more a developer supports it's product, the less effective piracy is.

(That said, if somethings out a few days before release, and I've already pre-purchased on steam. I feel no guilt.)
 

geldonyetich

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dochmbi said:
geldonyetich said:
dochmbi said:
Piracy is stealing only if you accept the concept of intellectual property.
And if you don't accept the concept of intellectual property, good luck eating if your career is as a producer of it.
Indeed. I want to see the downfall of the entire entertainment / culture industry. If tomorrow everyone decided to stop buying anything of that nature and start pirating, it would be wonderful. Now culture would be produced solely by volunteer work or funded by donations and foundations and people would be unrestrained and free to develop whatever derivative works they pleased.
I suppose if you're okay with having many, many less products that are generally of less technically advanced quality, that outlook works just fine.

It's not that I don't agree that I would prefer a labor-of-love over a game conceived solely in the purpose of creating money, but don't you think the creators deserve to be compensated for the enjoyment they bring?

If 90% of people are outright stealing games, it's just as likely 90% won't bother to donate towards it.
 

LTK_70

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I would argue that not 100% of pirates are jerks, I believe 90% of them are just ignorant. If people don't know about developers and their publishers, sequels and franchises, DRM and dedicated servers, digital distribution, second-hand games, etcetera, then they have no insight on gaming culture and the market. What they see is a choice: Pay for this game or get this game for free? In such a narrow mindset, the only sensible choice is to pirate. These people are not a market. What they are trying to do now is attempting to punish the pirates in a way that's akin to punishing a kid who doesn't eat his veggies. They send him to bed without dinner, only now his matress is full of hamburgers. I think that to reduce piracy, you need to educate instead of punish. I only have anectodal evidence to support this: Remember independent Chilean developer ACE Team, and Zeno Clash, the first game they made? In order to reduce piracy on their game, the lead developer went to the torrent sites where it was being uploaded, and explained how their livelihood depended on the sales of this game, and asked the people downloading the game to buy it if they liked it. Many of them said they were going to do so, but I have no idea how many of the 90% this is. Still, it's good to see that all some people need is a personal message in order to see the big picture.
 

Lord Krunk

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Sutures said:
Lord Krunk said:
SnipErlite said:
Pirates are thieves. Simple as.

I only pirate games I cannot physically get, like Sim City 2000 or Aladdin (ie. old classics)

So I'm a mini-thief, I admit.
Same here, although if I see said item in a shop then I won't hesitate to buy it.

I wish I could find an ISO for FF7 though. I want to know what makes it better than 8 or Legend of Dragoon.

Dang... maybe its time to drop some old games on ebay. How many Hamiltons could I get for SimCity 2K?
I'm not too sure. Shame I already own SS2K though.
 

dochmbi

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geldonyetich said:
dochmbi said:
geldonyetich said:
dochmbi said:
Piracy is stealing only if you accept the concept of intellectual property.
And if you don't accept the concept of intellectual property, good luck eating if your career is as a producer of it.
Indeed. I want to see the downfall of the entire entertainment / culture industry. If tomorrow everyone decided to stop buying anything of that nature and start pirating, it would be wonderful. Now culture would be produced solely by volunteer work or funded by donations and foundations and people would be unrestrained and free to develop whatever derivative works they pleased.
I suppose if you're okay with having many, many less products that are generally of less technically advanced quality, that outlook works just fine.

It's not that I don't agree that I would prefer a labor-of-love over a game conceived solely in the purpose of creating money, but don't you think the creators deserve to be compensated for the enjoyment they bring?

If 90% of people are outright stealing games, it's just as likely 90% won't bother to donate towards it.
Yes I would be ok with having less technically advanced quality, if it would come to that, thought I don't think that it necessarily would. It is certainly an interesting economic scenario: You have great demand for a product but there is no way for anyone to make money by producing it.
Whether developers would be compensated or not would be in the hands of the people, I guess if you don't want to work for free then don't bother developing anything, but as I said, I do think there would be some sort of foundations which had people paying monthly fees or something, becuase demand is still very great.