[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps
- Thread starter Saelune
- Start date
No, telling Jewish people they're welcome to go to the home they had recently left and never have to interact with Nazis again was not how the Holocaust startedAvnger said:
I don't always come down on the side of racists from my perspective. In fact, I never come down on the side of racists from my perspective. It just appears that way to you because we're in an overwhelmingly left-leaning bubble here on the Escapist. If someone runs to the left as fast as they can and then turns to see what's to the right of them, even people who are on the left and moving left are going to be in the same relative direction as anyone to the right in any capacity. That's not a reasonable assessment.
I know where I compare to most people here, I know where I compare to mainstream commentators, I know where I compare to news talk radio, I know where I compare to NPR, I know where I compare to a Ben Shapiro or to a Contrapoints. I am a politically informed person who knows where I stand on things, and I know it isn't with Neo-nazis. The reason I'm always right of the Escapist is not because I'm a fascist. It's because the Escapist demographic is overwhlemingly left to the point of having actual communists. And not the Fox News red scare kind of "they want to raise taxes" communism, actual "eliminate private property" communism. That doesn't signal to me that I'm a baddy.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/deportation-removal-proceedings.htmlSeanchaidh said:
"Non-citizens have the right to a lawyer, as well as other rights under the U.S. Constitution. The immigration authorities cannot simply deport someone without providing a chance to be heard.
Of course, the authorities often try to make the process go quickly, by asking the immigrant to sign something agreeing to depart without a hearing. In some cases, when the immigrant really is in the U.S. illegally with no defense to removal, leaving voluntarily can be the best way to go, because it avoids having an order of deportation on one's record."
Yes, they do have the option to leave voluntarily. It just requires waiving your right to a hearing.
You literally have demonstrated zero understanding of what's actually happening beyond inflammatory headlines.Saelune said:
We are not hunting people down to put into concentration camps. They are coming to the US, through great personal hardship, to request asylum here. And we guarantee them the right to plead their case, every single one. Those who come to a point of entry don't get detained (unless there's already a warrant for their arrest or a felony immigration violation on their record). Some of them jump the border rather than go to a point of entry. We don't just deport them, we still guarantee them the right to a court hearing to plead their asylum case. If they don't want to be held in America, we allow them to waive that right and leave the country without a deportation order. But if they break the law to get into the US and then ask for their day in court, it comes with the caveat that they aren't released immediately into the country to do as they will. That's your "concentration camps".
People who decided they wanted to leave their homes and migrate to the United States.
Who decided that it was better for them to jump the border than apply for entry.
Who decided that they'd rather be in detention than give up on asylum in the US.
To call that anything less than voluntary is outrageously infantalizing. These people made the decision to come here and be detained. And I'm not gonna fault them for that, they must have suffered hardships that I can't imagine such that leaving their homes and being held by US border patrol is the best option they have. But they made that decision themselves, and anyone who considers them passive victims is discrediting their ability to make that decision. They come here knowing we can't just let everyone in freely; if we did let everyone in freely there would be no point in coming here. You can't escape violence in the US if we aren't diligent about keeping the violence out. A substantial amount of these people have death threats against them by organized crime. That might be why they'd rather be detained in the US than wait in line in Mexico, because they're afraid and MS-13 can't murder you in a US detention center.
Detention centers weren't set up to torture immigrants. They were set up because we have to provide people with food and shelter while they wait for their hearing. They weren't made to be prisons, but rather were made because holding asylum seekers in the actual prisons is unacceptable. Separate facilities weren't made for children to punish families, they were made to give kids a more comfortable facility separate from the adults who may or may not be the violent people we're trying to keep out. None of these things were designed by racists who hate immigrants, every single one was meant with the good intentions of keeping people safe. If you think we can do better at achieving that goal, good, I agree with you. If you make no attempt to understand the situation because comparing Donald Trump to Hitler is more important to you than helping and protecting people, then I'm going to have to disagree.
Most of my answers to you are contained in my response to Saelune, but this particular point is just factually incorrect. "Try 2-3 years" may or may not be accurate if you're talking about how long it takes to get asylum granted, but there are steps in between and you aren't detained for the whole process. Taking from this source [https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics] (that's hardly pro-detention center, and is in fact trying to emphasize the harshness of them):undeadsuitor said:
"In FY 2017, the average length of stay at any one immigrant prison or jail was 34 days, compared to 22 days in FY 2016 and 21 days in FY 2015."
So to reiterate, typically less than a month.
If you think we can do better, good, I agree with you. If you make no attempt to understand the situation because comparing Donald Trump to Hitler is more important to you than helping and protecting people, then I'm going to have to disagree.Saelune said:
If you think we can do better at achieving that goal, good, I agree with you. If you make no attempt to understand the situation because comparing Donald Trump to Hitler is more important to you than helping and protecting people, then I'm going to have to disagree.Saelune said:
And what would you do to make them not concentration camps in your mind? Would you let people move freely and eliminate the refuge we have to offer these people in the first place.Saelune said:
You know, people here don't seem to understand what people coming to America obviously do understand. When we had poor border security, the people coming to America were working age men and criminals among them trying to break immigration laws. So we tightened border security, created a bunch of detention centers, and made separate facilities to care for people's children. And now we have fewer single young men coming and an overwhelming amount of families with children actively turning themselves in. Do you think it's coincidence that they turn themselves in to these "concentration camps"? Or perhaps, it's because the security protocols you're demonizing are exactly the security that they want for themselves!
They are concentration camps by definition. Not just 'in my mind'. Stop using intentionally misleading and manipulative wording like that.tstorm823 said:
For them to not be concentration camps they need to give the people in them human rights and then protect and enforce those human rights. Children would not be dying in them if they were ok.
Imagine if it was YOU. Imagine if YOU were detained, how would YOU want it to go?
Detention centers, concentration camps, tomato tomato.
Where are human rights being deliberately denied? Be specific. It's nice to say "children would not be dying in them if they were ok" but it doesn't mean anything. Children die. It's tragic, but it happens. And it's more likely to happen shortly after walking across a desert. At least one of the deaths was a girl who was sick when CBP found the group, and she was beyond help by the time they even reached a facility. Border Patrol wasn't the reason she died, they were her only chance at survival.Saelune said:
We have agents patrolling the wilderness and rescue beacons set up so people can call for help, and there are still unknown quantities of people dying before the even get the this side of the border. Border Patrol isn't a death squad rounding people up, they're often the rescue team keeping people from dying. I know people aren't saints, I'm not suggesting border patrol agents are guardian angels. But you're doing exactly what you're asking me to do: imagine the worst case. You're imagining untold horrors and then getting upset about your own imagination. Try researching reality rather than assuming what you think might have happened based on headlines.
Their right to happiness, their right to a speedy trial, their right to basic human living conditions, their right to not be torn from their family when they are too young to understand anything and are literally left to rot and die.tstorm823 said:
'Children die. It's tragic, but it happens.' !? CHILDREN DIE BECAUSE THEY ARE TORTURING THEM! The fuck dude!?
You are the one ignoring reality and facts. For pages now you literally defend child torturing concentration camps. Stop it.
Do you have even a single piece of evidence of this? Even one that kids are being tortured?Saelune said:
These are the kids that died. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316?fbclid=IwAR38n79Vu1jBLejqEPL8NCeCJ7qaGinN2TJOuTfEkVI1BKJDyISX3Jee7Rs]
Read that whole thing, start to finish. Every word. You know what happened to every single one of those children? They got sick. One was sick by the time she was picked up. One had a congenital heart disease. Others got the flu or pneumonia. Not a single one was said to be tortured. You'll learn that most children are out of the hands of CBP within 3 days. That they have staffed pediatricians who do initial health checks and rechecks.
That article is highly critical of the detention centers. But they criticize the comfort of short term holding cells. They criticize the lack of medical training among people caring for children. They criticize the slowness of processing cases and releasing kids. But all of those criticisms are of people caring for kids and being insufficient at it. Not being well trained for emergency medical situations is not the same thing as torturing children. It's not evil people doing evil things and you help nobody by making it out that way.
No, because kids don't just go wherever they want. Kids don't make their own decisions. You're not gonna "gotcha!" me. Stop trying.Seanchaidh said:
Some doctors and teachers have done bad things. So we should get rid of schools and hospitals, right?Kwak said: