[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

[Seanchaidh]

These kids could leave at any time, is your argument?

No, because kids don't just go wherever they want. Kids don't make their own decisions. You're not gonna "gotcha!" me. Stop trying.

So it's not a concentration camp because the people there could just leave, but they can't just leave-- and that's OK because they normally can't just leave, so really we should treat them as being able to leave, actually, for the specific purpose of constructing an argument that 'detention centers' are not concentration camps?

* * *

concentration camp noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard -used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

detain verb: to hold or keep in or as if in custody

custody noun: immediate charge and control (as over a ward or a suspect) exercised by a person or an authority

 

[tstorm823]

So it's not a concentration camp because the people there could just leave, but they can't just leave-- and that's OK because they normally can't just leave, so really we should treat them as being able to leave, actually?

It's not a concentration camp because the parents can decide to leave

Same source as I gave you before, ~70% of people are detained for less than a day because they leave the country without waiting for a hearing. The majority of people caught crossing not only can just leave, they do just leave. The fact that kids don't make decisions for themselves, their parents do, is totally irrelevant.

 

[Seanchaidh]

So it's not a concentration camp because the people there could just leave, but they can't just leave-- and that's OK because they normally can't just leave, so really we should treat them as being able to leave, actually?

It's not a concentration camp because the parents can decide to leave

Same source as I gave you before, ~70% of people are detained for less than a day because they leave the country without waiting for a hearing. The majority of people caught crossing not only can just leave, they do just leave. The fact that kids don't make decisions for themselves, their parents do, is totally irrelevant.

We have camps full of concentrated populations of children who are separated from their parents. But they aren't 'concentration camps' because the parents-- who aren't there-- could decide to accept one specific egress, which puts them in another country entirely. And the people who stay long-term are those who are applying for refugee status, which generally entails that that one specific egress is not safe. The space station prison isn't a prison because the prisoners have been given an airlock that they may voluntarily space themselves.

concentration camp noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard -used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

detain verb: to hold or keep in or as if in custody

custody noun: immediate charge and control (as over a ward or a suspect) exercised by a person or an authority

They are concentration camps.

 

[tstorm823]

We have camps full of concentrated populations of children who are separated from their parents. But they aren't 'concentration camps' because the parents-- who aren't there-- could decide to accept one specific egress, which puts them in another country entirely. And the people who stay long-term are those who are applying for refugee status, which generally entails that that one specific egress is not safe. The space station prison isn't a prison because the prisoners have been given an airlock that they may voluntarily space themselves.

Bathrooms have one specific egress, basically prisons if you think about it.

 

[Seanchaidh]

We have camps full of concentrated populations of children who are separated from their parents. But they aren't 'concentration camps' because the parents-- who aren't there-- could decide to accept one specific egress, which puts them in another country entirely. And the people who stay long-term are those who are applying for refugee status, which generally entails that that one specific egress is not safe. The space station prison isn't a prison because the prisoners have been given an airlock that they may voluntarily space themselves.

Bathrooms have one specific egress, basically prisons if you think about it.

Yes, all those bathrooms that open exclusively to a shuttle to the international zone of an international airport. Compelling rebuttal.

There is quite a difference between simply leaving and being forced to go to one specific, far-away place. The people in these concentration camps are prevented by armed guards from simply leaving.

 

[Nedoras]

So this may happen.

https://prospect.org/article/trump-seeking-effectively-outsource-asylum-seekers-guatemala

I'll say it again. This isn't some tragic mistake that they're trying their best to handle. The suffering is the point. The death and sickness is the point. They'll do whatever it takes to send their message. They've said this themselves.

 

[tstorm823]

There is quite a difference between simply leaving and being forced to go to one specific, far-away place. The people in these concentration camps are prevented by armed guards from simply leaving.

It's not quite a bit of difference, because once they're released outside the US, they're free to move as they please. Including to the US potentially. They can go to one of the border crossings that isn't backlogged and file for asylum there, and upon passing background and medical checks, await their hearing inside the US undetained. That's the biggest upside to waiving your right to a hearing (if you read the source I sent you) that you'll have other opportunities to claim asylum by keeping the deportation order off your record.

 

[Seanchaidh]

There is quite a difference between simply leaving and being forced to go to one specific, far-away place. The people in these concentration camps are prevented by armed guards from simply leaving.

It's not quite a bit of difference, because once they're released outside the US, they're free to move as they please. Including to the US potentially. They can go to one of the border crossings that isn't backlogged and file for asylum there, and upon passing background and medical checks, await their hearing inside the US undetained. That's the biggest upside to waiving your right to a hearing (if you read the source I sent you) that you'll have other opportunities to claim asylum by keeping the deportation order off your record.

All these bathrooms with exits exclusively to shuttles to an international airport, and that require one relinquish a legal right to make use of them. Just walking out a door, really. Ignore the armed guards.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/

"We have what I would call a concentration camp system," Pitzer says, "and the definition of that in my book is, mass detention of civilians without trial."

Historians use a broader definition of concentration camps, as well. "What's required is a little bit of demystification of it," says Waitman Wade Beorn, a Holocaust and genocide studies historian and a lecturer at the University of Virginia. "Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz. Concentration camps in general have always been designed?at the most basic level?to separate one group of people from another group. Usually, because the majority group, or the creators of the camp, deem the people they're putting in it to be dangerous or undesirable in some way."

Many of the people housed in these facilities are not "illegal" immigrants. If you present yourself at the border seeking asylum, you have a legal right to a hearing under domestic and international law. They are, in another formulation, refugees?civilian non-combatants who have not committed a crime, and who say they are fleeing violence and persecution. Yet these human beings, who mostly hail from Central America's Northern Triangle of Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador?a region ravaged by gang violence and poverty and corruption and what increasingly appears to be some of the first forced migrations due to climate change?are being detained on what increasingly seems to be an indefinite basis.

 

[Leg End]

Nazi concentration camps is not the definition of concentration camps. The issue is that no one knew about the mass execution til the war was almost over. Rounding up people and imprisoning them in concentration camps. Mass execution is a whole new level.

Trunk, I've been explicitly not using Nazi camps as an example, but rather the Japanese Internment Camps the United States created after Pearl Harbor.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316

...I was actually unaware of more child deaths. But a look at several of them appear to be, with the information available, cases of illnesses that did not have anything to do with them being in US custody. Of course, this is pending until we learn more in the coming months, and still several suspicious deaths.

and this was before ICE started picking up steam,

Got a link for them after picking up steam? That is a very recent article, so that'd mean it'd be within the past month or so.

How aren't they?

I don't exactly see the people in them being removed from their homes by executive order based upon their racial makeup, then stuck behind barbed wire for anywhere up to four years because we think they're all spies due to their blood, with genuinely no way to leave. It just does not look the same to me at all. There was no trial. There were no charges. There was no discussion. You were Japanese, you were stuck in these camps and there was not a goddamn thing you could do about it.

EDIT: Felt like I need to make it clear since someone pointed it out to me, even if I believe the context was rather obvious. The comic is for historical reference and the situation at the time. Yes, it's fucked up. No, I don't even remotely condone the content. I'm pretty sure context of a post is taken into account here, so please take that context. This was the common idea at the time of the comic, and the creator should definitely be noted.

 

[Marik2]

Children die. It's tragic, but it happens.

You have psychopathy.

Some doctors and teachers have done bad things. So we should get rid of schools and hospitals, right?

Strawman

 

[Trunkage]

Nazi concentration camps is not the definition of concentration camps. The issue is that no one knew about the mass execution til the war was almost over. Rounding up people and imprisoning them in concentration camps. Mass execution is a whole new level.

Trunk, I've been explicitly not using Nazi camps as an example, but rather the Japanese Internment Camps the United States created after Pearl Harbor.

The Interment Camps allowed some Freedom. They could leave and go to work. They could earn money. They could even get extended leave to visit relatives. You could stay in family units. The conditions were less squalorly and, as far as come to light so far, had less abuse, physically and sexually. The whole island of Hawaii was pretty much an Interment Camp. These camps were similar to Ghettos that had been used for centuries. Don't get me wrong, Interment Camps were not nice, but we're putting in context.

These camps at the border are not as good as Interment Camps. Remember that many of the Nazi camps would be reclassified as Death Camps after they found out what happened. You have to imagine what the term was before the has chambers were found.

Now, it you want to make a new category of camps that fits nicely between Interment and Death Camp, I'm all ears. Yes Concentration Camps do have allusion to Nazi Death Camps. You cant use Work Camps, Gulags or Ghettos becuase they have allusion to other situations.

Edit: And feel free to add the Manus and Christmas Island shenanigans by the Australian parliament in that category. Trump used this as a model because 'it worked so well.'

Note that is stopped boat people. Hasn't stopped illegal immigrants because there are these things called planes that neither my government or Trump ever think about

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Nazi concentration camps is not the definition of concentration camps. The issue is that no one knew about the mass execution til the war was almost over. Rounding up people and imprisoning them in concentration camps. Mass execution is a whole new level.

Trunk, I've been explicitly not using Nazi camps as an example, but rather the Japanese Internment Camps the United States created after Pearl Harbor.

The Interment Camps allowed some Freedom. They could leave and go to work. They could earn money. They could even get extended leave to visit relatives. You could stay in family units. The conditions were less squalorly and, as far as come to light so far, had less abuse, physically and sexually. The whole island of Hawaii was pretty much an Interment Camp. These camps were similar to Ghettos that had been used for centuries. Don't get me wrong, Interment Camps were not nice, but we're putting in context.

These camps at the border are not as good as Interment Camps. Remember that many of the Nazi camps would be reclassified as Death Camps after they found out what happened. You have to imagine what the term was before the has chambers were found.

Now, it you want to make a new category of camps that fits nicely between Interment and Death Camp, I'm all ears. Yes Concentration Camps do have allusion to Nazi Death Camps. You cant use Work Camps, Gulags or Ghettos becuase they have allusion to other situations.

Edit: And feel free to add the Manus and Christmas Island shenanigans by the Australian parliament in that category. Trump used this as a model because 'it worked so well.'

Note that is stopped boat people. Hasn't stopped illegal immigrants because there are these things called planes that neither my government or Trump ever think about

I think the planes are for turning back unaccompanied Saudi women.

 

[tstorm823]

Children die. It's tragic, but it happens.

You have psychopathy.

Acknowledging the deaths of children is not psychopathy. In the US, 6.5 out of 1000 children die before the age of 5. There being a half-dozen cases of illness related deaths among thousands of children left in the care of the US government immediately after enduring far worse conditions to get here is not a good thing and we should do as much as we can to avoid it, but it's not necessarily avoidable, and it's certainly not evidence that detention centers are torturing children to death.

The first big headline of a child dying was a girl who was already sick. Her group had been left by the road in the middle of nowhere by a coyote who agreed to take them to the border. Border patrol took a bus to pick them up and drove them to the nearest facility. By the time they got there, the girl had gotten worse, and they got the nearby hospital involved, but it was too late to save her. Before CBP even got involved, the girl was left sick with a deadly illness 100 miles from medical help. There is no detention policy you could change to avoid that.

At least one of the children who died from the flu did so well after being released by CBP, they just walked back the timeline and figured out he probably caught the flu while he was detained. There may have been ways to avoid that, I don't know, but if him getting the flu is to be taken as evidence that he was tortured, the majority of parents would have to be torturing their children.

 

[Saelune]

'Children die. It's tragic, but it happens.' !? CHILDREN DIE BECAUSE THEY ARE TORTURING THEM! The fuck dude!?

You are the one ignoring reality and facts. For pages now you literally defend child torturing concentration camps. Stop it.

Do you have even a single piece of evidence of this? Even one that kids are being tortured?

These are the kids that died. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316?fbclid=IwAR38n79Vu1jBLejqEPL8NCeCJ7qaGinN2TJOuTfEkVI1BKJDyISX3Jee7Rs]

Read that whole thing, start to finish. Every word. You know what happened to every single one of those children? They got sick. One was sick by the time she was picked up. One had a congenital heart disease. Others got the flu or pneumonia. Not a single one was said to be tortured. You'll learn that most children are out of the hands of CBP within 3 days. That they have staffed pediatricians who do initial health checks and rechecks.

That article is highly critical of the detention centers. But they criticize the comfort of short term holding cells. They criticize the lack of medical training among people caring for children. They criticize the slowness of processing cases and releasing kids. But all of those criticisms are of people caring for kids and being insufficient at it. Not being well trained for emergency medical situations is not the same thing as torturing children. It's not evil people doing evil things and you help nobody by making it out that way.

0 is the number of acceptable losses for children in these 'not concentration camps'. If a kid dies in daycare, that's a problem.

 

[Saelune]

'Saelune thinks everyone who disagrees with her is a Nazi'


Me: Concentration camps are bad

 

[Saelune]

Nazi concentration camps is not the definition of concentration camps. The issue is that no one knew about the mass execution til the war was almost over. Rounding up people and imprisoning them in concentration camps. Mass execution is a whole new level.

Trunk, I've been explicitly not using Nazi camps as an example, but rather the Japanese Internment Camps the United States created after Pearl Harbor.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316

...I was actually unaware of more child deaths. But a look at several of them appear to be, with the information available, cases of illnesses that did not have anything to do with them being in US custody. Of course, this is pending until we learn more in the coming months, and still several suspicious deaths.

and this was before ICE started picking up steam,

Got a link for them after picking up steam? That is a very recent article, so that'd mean it'd be within the past month or so.

How aren't they?

I don't exactly see the people in them being removed from their homes by executive order based upon their racial makeup, then stuck behind barbed wire for anywhere up to four years because we think they're all spies due to their blood, with genuinely no way to leave. It just does not look the same to me at all. There was no trial. There were no charges. There was no discussion. You were Japanese, you were stuck in these camps and there was not a goddamn thing you could do about it.

EDIT: Felt like I need to make it clear since someone pointed it out to me, even if I believe the context was rather obvious. The comic is for historical reference and the situation at the time. Yes, it's fucked up. No, I don't even remotely condone the content. I'm pretty sure context of a post is taken into account here, so please take that context. This was the common idea at the time of the comic, and the creator should definitely be noted.

Those camps didn't separate kids from their parents.

 

[tstorm823]

If a kid dies in daycare, that's a problem.

Googles "kid dies in daycare". Clicks the "news" tab. 78,300 results.

I agree, that's a problem. But it's a problem of specific tragedies in an otherwise good societal institution. Daycares are good. It's good that they exist. It's bad if a child dies at a daycare. Your response to that tragedy should not be a assume the child was tortured to death by evil evil daycares.

 

[Thaluikhain]

[It's bad if a child dies at a daycare. Your response to that tragedy should not be a assume the child was tortured to death by evil evil daycares.

If daycares were run by a single organisation going out of its way to torture kids, then if a kid died under their supervision you'd probably wonder, though.

 

[Saelune]

If a kid dies in daycare, that's a problem.

Googles "kid dies in daycare". Clicks the "news" tab. 78,300 results.

I agree, that's a problem. But it's a problem of specific tragedies in an otherwise good societal institution. Daycares are good. It's good that they exist. It's bad if a child dies at a daycare. Your response to that tragedy should not be a assume the child was tortured to death by evil evil daycares.

Now tell me that 'its ok cause they are foreigners', go on.

If a kid dies in daycare my first thought IS that they were abused. Cause KIDS SHOULD NOT BE DYING UNDER DECENT SUPERVISION!