You are 100% completely innocent, and to be lauded for your efforts. This is the fault of lack of restraint on the parts of your brother and both women involved, the fault of whatever shithead was the attacker, and that's all it was. You win, they're bitches, cut them off and do yourself a favor by being free of their nonsense forever, the end.knight steel said:
Poll: Am I to blame
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Lol okay, maybe you should take your own advice. I have no idea how this could be perceived as an attack on my intelligence since the discussion I was having had nothing to do with me. It was however an attack on facts as I demonstrated, providing evidence as was requested. And yeah, you really do like to project emotions, don't you. I have no idea why you even bothered to quote me. Just to tell me you don't like my attitude? Sorry but tough luck.Kyr Knightbane said:
I thought I made it quite clear that my qualm was with the suggestion that their clothing was a factor in their assault. And the women weren't alone. There were two of them, which is another aspect of the story which makes me sceptical. Unless by 'alone' you mean 'manless'.major_chaos said:
Frankly stranger rape is so uncommon that to let fear of it dictate your life is just sad. And if someone decided to mug me I could be sober as a judge and there'd still be fuck all I could do about it. In retrospect it's easy to point the finger at someone and say they shouldn't have been alone, shouldn't have been out at night, and all that pish. But frankly if the only time you leave your house is during the day with someone constantly holding your hand, I pity you. It's completely unreasonable and impractical to expect people to constantly take every precaution lest someone claim they should have known better.
I'm not sure I get it. How can anyone but the attacker be to blame for an attack? Anything else is who's to blame for influencing the scenario, which, everyone is to blame for - even your brother. Sure the women may have been stupid for not listening to your advice, and you're not exactly 100% not shining for not following up on it (which is the lesser offense in my opinion), but for anyone besides the attacker to be at fault?
First of all, if a statistic is 100% accurate about 100% of a group then it can only be accurately considered when accounting for the whole/most of group. When you focus on only a single subsection (6.27%) of the of the whole then the accuracy of the study in relation to that subsection is also reduced to 6.27%. That is, the study has a 6.27& chance of actually being applicable in any way to the smaller sample size.Master of the Skies said:
The study about clothing and its relation to rape that was cited earlier was based off of ALL cases of rape. 66% of rape is done by a friend, family member, or ex-spouse. With friends, family members, and ex spouses we know that the rape is most likely all about power and less about sex. As a result, appearance is most likely not going to have an affect at all on the chance of rape. A stranger who rapes someone in/near the victims home has probably planned the assault and the victim's clothing would not likely matter in this case either.
However, when a random stranger is looking to assault a person away from the victim's home (such as just outside of a bar) the intended victim has most likely not been chosen yet. As such, the assailant chooses a victim based on what he senses is an easy/valuable target. Revealing clothing DOES make a person look more attractive and DOES attract attention. Consequently, if the assailant has a choice between assaulting a drunk person in normal clothes or a drunk person in revealing clothes, chances are he'd be more attracted to the one in revealing clothes. (However, this assumes that the assailant didn't just attack the first drunk person he saw, which could possibly be the case.)
Finally, I said increased. Increased relative to the majority of cases of rape which are planned with a specific target in mind. If the assailant has no knowledge of/motive to assault a specific victim, it is only reasonable that he would look towards appearance when choosing a victim.
I do not have a double standard on evidence.
I used evidence and reasoning to support my claim that the idea that the women's clothing in this situation had absolutely no affect is false and I have just provided reasoning to support the claim that you just cited.
Drunk people should have guns.super_mega_ultra said:
In case they get attacked.
Are you serious?
Just to clarify, I am not saying that they "asked for it" and never even implied such. I said in my first post
It is never a victims fault for being attacked. The criminal is the one who decided to take action. All I am arguing is that the idea that an attacker outside the bar wouldn't be attracted by revealing clothing is most likely false.
I voted other, because there's two different problems that blame could be assigned to, them getting attacked and them being put in a situation where they were likely to be attacked. For the first obviously there's only one person to blame, the person who attacked them. For the second, you are not at all to blame. I don't understand why so many people think that getting drunk voids you of any responsibility for your actions. They chose to get drunk so they decided that they would risk the lack of judgment. I'm not by any means saying that this means they are responsible for being attacked, as I mentioned this is all on the person who attacked them, but they are responsible for putting themselves in the situation that they're blaming you for.
Master of the Skies said:
Master of the Skies said:
I concede to this research paper:
http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp
Hopefully, this is enough for us to find common ground. I do not believe that the original poster was wrong in saying that he was worried that the girls provocative clothing would increase the chances that they are attacked. However, I also admit that a person looking to sexually assault someone would probably look more towards a person that dresses more submissively.
These women sound like grade A idiots. You aren't too blame in the slightest, and I wouldn't worry about your friends either. The truth will come out eventually, and if your friends don't accept it then they are just plain stupid and you shouldn't associate with them anyway.
No, not at all. If anyone I'd blame the girls for being stupid AND assholes, but this doesn't seem like a scenario with any blame to assign.knight steel said:
well you didnt really do anything awful, but i can certainly see how using what theyre wearing as a reason for why they might get attacked would upset them. you should have said that its a bad neighborhood and you were worried about them traveling in such a small group. that said, it seems clear that you did try to stop them and theres really only so much you can do.
And here, ultimately, is the problem with the progressive movement.
It wants everyone to be completely equal despite the fact that everyone is completely different.
OP, you told them it wasn't safe. You knew that an attack was a possibility. You knew they made an attractive target. But they blame you because you were saying that not all people are equal in all ways.
Men are predominantly, factually, and scientifically stronger than women. Men are predominantly more physically and sexually aggressive than women. No amount of "we should all be equal" will change that. Ignoring these facts won't change things.
It
Just
Is
They are trying to hold you to a double standard by first saying "You are callings us victims!" and then saying "Why didn't you prevent us from being victims!?" Ultimately the attacker carries full responsibility for the attack. But the girls carry the full responsibility for putting themselves at risk, even when you tried to help them.
My suggestion is that as long as you don't have some other connection to these girls (work, school, club activities, etc), you sever ties with them and never speak to them again. If you do have to be around them, don't go drinking with them. They have already proven they are not responsible for their own actions.
It wants everyone to be completely equal despite the fact that everyone is completely different.
OP, you told them it wasn't safe. You knew that an attack was a possibility. You knew they made an attractive target. But they blame you because you were saying that not all people are equal in all ways.
Men are predominantly, factually, and scientifically stronger than women. Men are predominantly more physically and sexually aggressive than women. No amount of "we should all be equal" will change that. Ignoring these facts won't change things.
It
Just
Is
They are trying to hold you to a double standard by first saying "You are callings us victims!" and then saying "Why didn't you prevent us from being victims!?" Ultimately the attacker carries full responsibility for the attack. But the girls carry the full responsibility for putting themselves at risk, even when you tried to help them.
My suggestion is that as long as you don't have some other connection to these girls (work, school, club activities, etc), you sever ties with them and never speak to them again. If you do have to be around them, don't go drinking with them. They have already proven they are not responsible for their own actions.
You warned them, you cared for their well being and you were just trying to keep them safe, and yet they blame YOU for jumping the gun? Screw that, you're most certainly not to blame for what happened.
My first reaction is to laugh. And then to be cold and think... "well, you warned them. I'd say they brought it on themselves."
I would have chosen option 5 but then I saw option 7 and I guess that's more fitting. Because yeah, the attacker is mostly responsible.
But seriously, if there was ever a reason for the words 'tempting fate,' that situation was it. They have no right to blame you. You tried to convince them not to do anything and they accused you of being a sexist or something. Now when it turns out your concerns have some merit, they wanna take it out on you.
Fuck them sideways. I'll say right now, they get no sympathy from me.
I would have chosen option 5 but then I saw option 7 and I guess that's more fitting. Because yeah, the attacker is mostly responsible.
But seriously, if there was ever a reason for the words 'tempting fate,' that situation was it. They have no right to blame you. You tried to convince them not to do anything and they accused you of being a sexist or something. Now when it turns out your concerns have some merit, they wanna take it out on you.
Fuck them sideways. I'll say right now, they get no sympathy from me.
Obviously the attackers are scum yadda yadda, but the shear ignorance of those girls is astounding and to be honest, they asked for it by ignoring your advice. Can't say I feel sorry for people who try to blame the person who did their best to help them. It's not like you could pin them down and force them to go home with you is it?
You're not to blame at all. You tried to do the right thing, and you were shouted down.
I'd also say that they, the girls, aren't to blame, either-- it's not at all easy to perceive danger when you've been drinking.
But, certainly, you can't be blamed for what happened.
I'd also say that they, the girls, aren't to blame, either-- it's not at all easy to perceive danger when you've been drinking.
But, certainly, you can't be blamed for what happened.
No. Fuck bitches who blame someone for them getting raped when that person isn't fucking responsible and even tried to prevent it.Vergilsparda said:
I'm not saying they let themselves get raped anyway but there's something to be said for erring on the side of caution. Instead they had the fucking nerve to be insulted at the thought of their being potential risk to their person and then got fucking pissed when said risk became more than that.
There's really nothing you could have done. As for them bad mouthing you, all you can do is calmly explain the situation to others. Don't lose your temper, don't get mad, just calmly lay down the facts in a logical and well thought out way. Be the mature one. Assuming you told us the whole truth, and didn't leave out any facts or alter any of the information, there's no way this is your fault. We live in a free society, but part of that entails personal responsibility. If someone remains angry at you after you explain the situation to them, than I would argue they were never your friends to begin with, and there's no great loss. The best thing you can do is be indifferent and not let it bother you, as you've done nothing wrong and therefore have no reason to feel guilty.knight steel said:
And no, this does not mean you support rape culture, as you were only looking out for their best interest. The only thing you may be guilty of is having bad taste in friends, and that's something we've all been guilty of at some point or another.
They had the choice whether to stay until they could get a ride home or leave on their own. Despite the danger, despite pleas from the OP, they made the decision to leave on their own.Vergilsparda said:
They were responsible for their own risk. The attack in and of itself was not their fault, but they made themselves targets when they didn't have to.
If you must "pity" me let it be about the time I got pined to a wall while some asshole went through my pockets, because I was stupid enough to make myself a target, not for my attempts to make sure it never happens again. I'm not recommending anything particularity absurd, just if you are gonna walk at night, do so in a group, preferably of three or more, and preferably with at least one sober person (partly just to keep you from doing anything stupid. I know someone who got the shit kick out of him because he was too drunk to remember that the only correct answer to "the fuck you looking at white boy?" is brisk walking pace.) and carry something for self defense (i.e pepper spray).manic_depressive13 said: