Privately funded school, change isn't likely. Good luck. It would be awesome if you you kids could pick items for your uniform.
Poll: Do you think I stand a chance?
- Thread starter orangeban
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Honestly? I'd say you have slim odds of success. Then again so did the Civil Rights Movement. Remember that it only takes a change of (If I remember the study from school correctly) 20% of the population to institute a large change.
I would, however, recommend going to teachers and parents as well, they tend to hold the money/sway in such matters.
However, forming a large scale uniform switch day with a large amount of the signers would DEFINITELY get much needed attention. Just make sure to try and get as much publicity about it as possible, up to and including contacting local newspapers and the like.
I would, however, recommend going to teachers and parents as well, they tend to hold the money/sway in such matters.
However, forming a large scale uniform switch day with a large amount of the signers would DEFINITELY get much needed attention. Just make sure to try and get as much publicity about it as possible, up to and including contacting local newspapers and the like.
It's a private school, they can do pretty much whatever they want. The only way you have a chance is if you get the people who pay the school, the parents, to sign the petition. They don't give a rat's ass about what the students want, they want to get money, which means they only care what the parents think.orangeban said:
I don't think you have the slightest chance. I agree with all of your points, the problem is hat, being a student of that school, any point you have to make will most likely be dismissed out of hand. You're not paying anything, and nearly everyone has some authority over you. In most people's minds that makes your opinions worthless.
To answer the original question: no, I don't think you stand much of a chance unless you get a few hundred more signatures.
Second, your blowing this way the hell out of proportions. If the girls are required to wear skirts and do not have any other options, yes, get that stupid shit changed because skirts in cold weather sucks and that's a legitimate grievance. However, I have never once in my entire life seen an instance where someone was "treated differently" for dressing like as girl/boy when that's what they were. I have never seen someone's clothing--unless someone was in full drag--negatively affect how people act towards someone, and even then, it's usually just stuff done/said in obvious jest. Also, the accusation that uniforms "split the school into factions" and is a divisive element amongst the student body seems like a groundless and way overblown accusation. Having gone to a middle and high school with gender-based dress codes (skirts/short/trousers for girls, shorts/trousers for boys, everyone has to wear the same polo shirts), there was never once an instance of the student body being divided as a result of the dress code differing between the two sexes.
And as for "it enforces treating the sexes differently": I dare you to find one high school or middle school boy who does not want to be treated like a boy, or girl who does not want to be treated like a girl. And on top of that, there factually are differences in the sexes. There's the obvious anatomical ones (we guys tend lack those wonderful things called "breasts," for one) but there are also psychological ones having to do with the nature of social interaction/posturing/etc, emotional development, and so on, which have been pretty well established as innate if you grow up in Western society (I admit I am lacking on specific studies to cite, though my psychology textbook from a few years back did make mention to these things). Quite frankly, I see no reason not to treat them differently because they ARE different. Neither male or female is inherently better or worse than the other, but they are most definitely different.
So in short: you probably won't win without overwhelming support from the student body (and probably from parents, too), because your claims are kind of overblown and making a huge deal out of something that isn't that big of a deal. Unless your school is some sort of collection of people who do not grow up exposed to the outside world, I seriously doubt your grievances are legitimate.
Second, your blowing this way the hell out of proportions. If the girls are required to wear skirts and do not have any other options, yes, get that stupid shit changed because skirts in cold weather sucks and that's a legitimate grievance. However, I have never once in my entire life seen an instance where someone was "treated differently" for dressing like as girl/boy when that's what they were. I have never seen someone's clothing--unless someone was in full drag--negatively affect how people act towards someone, and even then, it's usually just stuff done/said in obvious jest. Also, the accusation that uniforms "split the school into factions" and is a divisive element amongst the student body seems like a groundless and way overblown accusation. Having gone to a middle and high school with gender-based dress codes (skirts/short/trousers for girls, shorts/trousers for boys, everyone has to wear the same polo shirts), there was never once an instance of the student body being divided as a result of the dress code differing between the two sexes.
And as for "it enforces treating the sexes differently": I dare you to find one high school or middle school boy who does not want to be treated like a boy, or girl who does not want to be treated like a girl. And on top of that, there factually are differences in the sexes. There's the obvious anatomical ones (we guys tend lack those wonderful things called "breasts," for one) but there are also psychological ones having to do with the nature of social interaction/posturing/etc, emotional development, and so on, which have been pretty well established as innate if you grow up in Western society (I admit I am lacking on specific studies to cite, though my psychology textbook from a few years back did make mention to these things). Quite frankly, I see no reason not to treat them differently because they ARE different. Neither male or female is inherently better or worse than the other, but they are most definitely different.
So in short: you probably won't win without overwhelming support from the student body (and probably from parents, too), because your claims are kind of overblown and making a huge deal out of something that isn't that big of a deal. Unless your school is some sort of collection of people who do not grow up exposed to the outside world, I seriously doubt your grievances are legitimate.
Well, firstly, girls do have to wear skirts in winter, so there's that I suppose.Naeo said:
But also, it is wrong to encourage people to treat the sexes diffently (which the current uniform does) because that encourages people to stereotype, to assume that girls do a certain thing and boys do something else, and this leads to gender role enforcement, where people are pressured to act a certain way because of their genitals, and that's not cool.
So, if I understand, if your request passes, theoretically, boys would be allowed to wear skirts?
On a more serious note: Hey, that does sound pretty reasonable, so if your school's administration isn't deaf to reason they'll hear you out.
Oh, so I guess it's a yes, then.orangeban said:
On a more serious note: Hey, that does sound pretty reasonable, so if your school's administration isn't deaf to reason they'll hear you out.
Wait... you think that acknowledging the empirical, concrete reality of there being two sexes is divisive and sexist? That's so painfully politically correct my head hurts.orangeban said:
Besides which, we have gender-neutral clothing: shirt and trousers. That's what a good third-to-half of the girls wore when I was at school.
Additionally: you're in Scotland, if ever there was a race that routinely dressed boys in skirts anyway, it's you guys!
Why are you so determined to go on a needless crusade like this? Will you be petitioning for unisex toilets and sports changing rooms, too? Perhaps revise all the textbooks to use ungendered pronouns?
Maybe, but first job after this is to remove the religion from assemblies (we all have to carry hymnbooks, madness!)Batou667 said:
And yeah, encouraging people to treat the two sexes differently from each other is wrong, I maintain that as true and you shall never change my view, never!
Here in the UK, the youth fashion market is advertised so aggressively (particularly to the working-class, perversely) that many children would quite literally bankrupt their parents by demanding new outfits every fortnight. Insisting on uniform goes some way to providing social equality in schools, it helps the poorer kids not get picked on quite so much and also has benefits in giving the kids a common identity. Also, school trips (especially in inner-city schools) would turn into a city-wide game of Hide and Seek if the kids were all in civvies.theriddlen said:
Not to mention it looks smart - a large proportion of children would never learn how to do up a tie if it wasn't for mandatory shirts. I'm all in favour of school uniform.
Okay, wearing skirts in winter is bullshit, yes. Get that changed if you can.orangeban said:
However: I fail to see how different uniforms encourages stereotyping and an assumption of behavior based on gender roles. That's something that, as has been said before, is based on the sex of the person in question rather than what clothing they wear, even less so if they're just wearing normal guy/girl clothes. Also, saying "girls wear skirts, guys wear trousers" doesn't encourage people to stereotype. What would encourage people to stereotype would be "girls wear low-cut tops and short skirts, guys wear wifebeaters and jeans fifteen sizes too large". That type of clothing has specific connotations and expectations attached to it--a skirt, in and of itself, does not.
Also, railing against gender role reinforcement as inherently bad--which sounds like what you're doing--is foolish. Gender roles are necessary in at least some extent to fit in to society--if you don't care about that or that's not important, then that's cool, but for most people, the ways you are expected to act as a man or a woman are important in interpersonal relations. However, in the real world, nobody much cares--it's about how you act as a person, as a professional and so on which transcends any concept of gender identity.
And while forcing or imposing gender identity on someone--forcing a guy to be all masculine and manly, forcing a girl to be all, well, girly--is generally a bad thing, I am still completely at a loss for how "girls wear skirts, guys were trousers" in any way does this. Yes, it treats the two sexes differently, but on a fairly petty level that I can't see as having a major impact on one's holistic gender identity. I had to wear a skirt a few times against my will in high school, and I never felt like my gender identity was being challenged or had undergone some radical change or whatnot. Similarly, I don't feel that wearing trousers has in any way influenced my male gender identity. Perhaps I'm weird and different, but I see no way that simply mandating a single piece of clothing that isn't something associating with any particular stereotype of either sex (what sort of guy wears trousers? All kinds. What kind of girl wears skirts? All kinds) is the degree of discrimination you make it out to be or could feasibly risk leading to any of the admittedly bad ends you have spelled out. If I'm missing something, I'd be more than happy to listen to an explanation, but so far all I've seen is "uniforms treat sexes differently, therefore it leads to an imposition of gender identity and a promotion of sex-based discrimination," which sounds to me to be about as silly as saying "mandating that doctors be held to a higher standard of medical knowledge promotes anti-intellectualism by segmenting the doctor population away from the rest of the general populace and setting them up as elite". Not quite the same sort of thing, but my point still stands. In debate terms (on the chance you do/have done CX debate), your harms do not follow from your status quo.
I feel I should clarify something here. I dislike the concept of a uniform. I do think it's stupid that girls have to wear skirts year-round no matter what, but that's for practical reasons (winter is goddamn cold sometimes). I don't think, however, that it's that big of a deal. By all means, try to get your uniform policy changed, I can't stop you (as I live in the States). I just think you're going about it for completely the wrong reason and using odd justifications that don't make much sense. There are better reasons to get rid of elements of dress code. It removes one avenue for possible self-expression within socially acceptable bounds (i.e. you couldn't wear a shirt saying "Fuck the Jews, thank god for the Holocaust" and expect to get away with it) is the biggest one. But arguing that skirts versus trousers leads to a division of the school body and a promotion of gender stereotyping via enforcement of gender roles is petty and lacking perspective. Or says a lot about the shallowness of the student body at your school if they legitimately divide themselves into camps solely because "they wear skirts and we wear trousers" (and vice versa).
ADDENDUM: you could definitely stand a chance of getting parts of the uniform code changed if you change your justifications for changing them. Most of the school administration, unless they eat and breathe every extreme of political correctness, will dismiss your justifications and probably use that to dismiss your whole case. However, if you try to get the uniform code changed to, say, allow girls to wear trousers and/or allow guys to wear shorts or whatever on purely pragmatic reasons (as stated, "winter is cold" and maybe "summer is hot" if guys have to wear only trousers all year), you would stand a much better chance. However, turning this into a moral/social justice issue is likely to cause your case more harm than good.
Unless there's a school-wide problem with people almost violating indecent exposure laws, school uniforms are asinine. Back in the day when it was encouraged to whoop students' asses and force copious amounts of memorization of rote facts, it was a tool to encourage conformity. Now, it's not only that, but a method of gauging the students' families as well.
You'd have a hard time persuading me that getting rid of the whole idea isn't the way to go.
You'd have a hard time persuading me that getting rid of the whole idea isn't the way to go.
But school is in a unique position to change society (since it prepares the next generation), and therefore is in a unique position to destroy the wall that stands between the sexes, that says that some clothing is acceptable for one sex and some clothing isn't, as well as other bullshit gender roles.Naeo said:
Allow me to play devil's advocate here and give counter-arguements to your points (in case you find yourself having to justify or defend them).
It's nice and all to say that it does this but can you back this up with any research or evidence or studies?
Otherwise it could be argued that there are already differences between boys and girls, does a different uniform really make that much difference when there are already lots of other things that seperate them from one another (physically, mentally and socially).
If there isn't a statistically significant transgendered population then it's somewhat doubtful anyone will make the effort to accomidate them (a new dress code does require a large amount of money and time to be spent not just by staff but also parents).
There is a time and a place for self-discovery and experimentation and during school isn't really it.
Can you prove that it has this effect?orangeban said:
It's nice and all to say that it does this but can you back this up with any research or evidence or studies?
Otherwise it could be argued that there are already differences between boys and girls, does a different uniform really make that much difference when there are already lots of other things that seperate them from one another (physically, mentally and socially).
Are there actualy that many transgendered pupils in your school?
If there isn't a statistically significant transgendered population then it's somewhat doubtful anyone will make the effort to accomidate them (a new dress code does require a large amount of money and time to be spent not just by staff but also parents).
This is sort of like saying that to deny boys make-up or to deny girls a penis because of a random event at birth is discriminatory.
Again, it could be argued that the two sexes are very different.
A uniform is there to create a unified look amongst the pupils and to reflect the school's pride and discipline, it isn't there to help you experiment with your sexuality (that is something you can do in your own time, not during class).
There is a time and a place for self-discovery and experimentation and during school isn't really it.
Well, denying boys make-up would be discriminatory, but denying girls a penis isn't, because no-one actively made the choice to deny them a penis.Iron Mal said:
Edit: I'd answer the rest of your points, but unfortunately I've got to go. But I have taken them into consideration.
Unfortunately you seem to be dedicated to the idea that 'because it's descriminatory' is a strong arguement on it's own but it does need to be remembered that bias and discrimination isn't always a bad thing.orangeban said:
We all have biases and discriminate subconsciously, we all treat different people differently (in an ideal world you'd treat everyone on a case-by-case basis but this often just isn't practical or effective).
If you want to follow up on the arguement of discrimination you need to be able to prove that it's actually harmful or has a negative impact in some way (otherwise it's very easy to come off as a crusader without a cause).
Argueing for practical reasons ('let girl's wear trousers in winter because wearing skirts in snow means you'll freeze your arse off') makes for good points that are often hard to argue against, argueing for more abstract and ethical reasons such as discrimination and to accomidate the transgendered or gender confused is not only rife with practical issues that it doesn't address (which is probably going to be the school's first concern) but can very easily be swatted down by someone simply disagreeing with you (you can argue with philosophy and social issues but you can't really deny a pragmatic concern).
With 800 kids, I doubt you need to worry about Transgendered people. Most schools have a dress code like that, you're thinking way too into it. The whole thing sounds pointless to me, and if I was in your school I would get a little annoyed by you trying to petition something like that.
There have been studies that claim students can concentrate better with uniform, and no uniform can emphasise the different groups and potentially cause bullying.Vykrel said: