Poll: Metroid: Other M killed Samus

HellsingerAngel

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LordNue said:
Baby...BABY...BABY-BABY... BABY BABYBABY BABY IT WAS CRYING JUST FOR ME!!!!

They could have characterized her in many ways. They just didn't have to take her from one extreme to another. Hell we see some glimpses in fusion and zero mission. Even in the Prime games, such as in Echoes when you beat Dark Samus for the second time she moves like she's going to try and stop Dark Samus from falling to her apparent death, and it Corruption when Gandreda or whatever her name is turns into Samus in her death throes, Samus gets a really freaked out look on her face. It gives an impression that though Samus does this, she's aware that she can die and seeing something that looks eerily like herself die troubles her and makes it seem too real, or perhaps I'm reading too much into it. But that's how subtle characterization works, small gestures and movements without shoving exposition that halts the plot and gameplay down the player's throat while they just sit there with their thumbs up their ass waiting for the stupid cutscene to end. Even if they wanted to give her a softer more feminine side they could have pulled it off without turning her into a weak, spineless failure who constantly whined how she couldn't ever do anything however long in the past it was and how the man was always right and who could never actually do anything without some man there to help or guide her along.
While I agree it would've made for a more compelling story for intellectuals, the cutscenes in this game are made for those who haven't followed the serise, are not well versed in subtle analogy (I.E. the average person) or those too young to understand said subtle use of story. Whether or not that's the height of Sakamoto's writing (which I doubt it is, as I doubt he wrote it himself but rather proof-read it) is moot. The game is made to be enjoyed by everyone, so that does mean people who are well versed in the analysis of a story are going to have to excuse some thing.

You're also talking about a large cultural divide here. Japan is not known for their glorious poet loriates. Yes, yes, some great stories have come out of Japan with thought provoking stories, but for the most part (especially in gaming) I think we can agree that everything is very blunt, straight-forward and explained to nauseum to be very obvious as to what is going on and how the characters feel. More so than Western culture, Eastern culture uses stereotypes within characters and sotry-arcs because they're perfectly fine with the status-quo and security of those forms. Even so, there were moments where I appreciated the explinations, such as the thumbs-down "two-fold geature" that she had. I probably could've figured it out given enough playthroughs, but having that neat little tid-bit handed to me was a nice geasture. Overall, your complaints aren't with the game itself, but rather with the culture it comes from, which unfortunately for you, probably won't change for awhile. That includes its feelings that everyone should accept their art form for what it is and not complain about it being too straight-forward.

sunburst313 said:
Fine, let's ignore characterization through gameplay and assume we knew nothing about Samus the character before now so whatever personality they decided to go with is the real Samus. Samus Aran is officially an emotionally frail girl and not a badass bounty hunter who happens to be female. She is not and never should have been an icon of feminine strength in gaming. The badass we thought we knew was just a phantom created when we filled in the blanks with things that were never actually stated. She's simply another roadblock standing in the way of strong female characterization in the games industry. Is that what you want?

Seriously, are you listening to yourselves? What does it matter if the character we thought we knew was never beaten over our heads? How does that excuse taking an icon of strong, independent women and turning her into a submissive little girl? It's great if they want to turn Samus into a deeper character with more personality than a pistol, but they still made her into a shitty character. If they want to give Samus depth that doesn't suck, I will be behind them 100%. It's great that she's flawed and has emotions other than grim determination. It's not great that those flaws paralyze her and completely drown out any other characteristics she may have. There's really not much else I can say that hasn't already been said at least as eloquently. I will note that I know quite a few female gamers who were rabidly anticipating Other M. Every single one of them was royally pissed off when they finished it. No matter what your perspective on this is, that proves Nintendo did something wrong.
Now this leads to my second point which covers both quotees: Samus Aran as a strong female character.

So most of you are complaining that she's being a over-sensative, insecure person who cries and feels fear in the face of danger. Excuse me, but when did Duke Nukem with boobs become the only acceptable form of a strong female character? In fact, when did Duke Nukem become the pinicle of strong male characters? Don't get me wrong, always bet on the Duke, but I can't help but feel that what you're portraying is a sense that anyone with any sort of "weak" traits to them is a terrible person and shouldn't be represented as a strong character in media.

I don't know about you, but I believe this was one of the points that feminism was trying to abolish, that having feelings and emotions didn't nessesarily make you weak as a person. I understand no one wants Samus to be some snivling little girl that completely relies on everyone else to do everything for her, then bakes a cake when the men have solved her problems. However, is this really what happens? To me and many others, a strong character isn't defined by having absolutely no weakness at all, but rather the ability to overcome weakness in the face of adversity. This is true within both male and female role models. Your argument is that she never overcomes this adversity of scared, meek feelings within the context of the game, which I have to say isn't even close to the truth.

What is happening here is a classic divide between the narrative and the gameplay. Atypically, this thought process is caused by the control being taken and given to the players. Whenever the control is taken away, obviously it's Samus in control of her own actions and this is what will define her as a character. Conversely, when control is given, it is the player who is in control of the actions and that means characterization is over. Or is it? Because of how narrative is presented, is it not fair to say that the gameplay is part of the narrative and that every action you make is apart of the portrayal of Samus Aran? If you look at the story as a whole, gameplay and all, we see that Samus deftly deals with a bad situation -the spread of alien species aboard a United Space Alliance (or whatever they're called) space station- with little help from the marines that are also there. The majority of the game she's being ordered by someone who has legal juristiction over the space station within a military chain of command. By the definition that because she's obeying the proper authorities and abiding by the laws that have been put into place, any law abiding citizen, especially those service women within the armed forces branch of your country, are terribly weak minded individuals who are only a set back to the femenist culture and that anarchic activists are the true women of this day and age. Little silly when you think about it, isn't it? Realistically, Samus is acting every bit the professional business woman by accepting the facts of the situation at hand.

On that same level, we get the interactions with Adam that are nearing the climax of the game. Is it just me, or is this a little skewed as well? Consider this: after every cutscene where Samus acts out of the confines of what you would call a "strong female character", do me a favour and pause the game. Then, recite out loud this exact phrase:

"Alright. Things look tough, but I can do this. It's my job and everyone is counting on me. Get it together!" (optional "Samus" or "girl" can be added at the end for dramatic effect)

Does this not make everything seem a little better? On the same account, do you really need this spelled out for you everytime Samus goes into "dramatic moment" mode? I understand that this somewhat goes against my early comment of that "Japan is very straight-forward with narrative" but even some things remain the same between our two cultures. The divide between cinematics and gameplay should be a seemless narrative, which means that your actions dictate how Samus develops. If you really believe her to be a snivling coward of a woman in the face of adversity, by all means, run her into a corner and let whatever enemy your facing blast her into a pile of dust. However, I think we can agree that you won't be getting very far in the game that way and that the purpose is to fight your way through the space station to your ultimate goal. So why is this kept seperate from the characterization of who Samus is? Why do we assume she's a cry-baby who needs a man to do everything for her when, throughout the gameplay, you kick ass and take names, all under the presumption that she's sucking up her feelings of doubt and inadequacy to get her job done? Really, complaining about having a straight-forward narrative and then not seeing this is sort of hypocritical.

As for Ridley, I explained my thoughts in an earlier post, so I'm just going to do what I hate the most and quote myself:

HellsingerAngel said:
Why is she so scared of Ridley!? She's killed him, like, a bajillion times!!!

Alright, this is probably the easiest argument out of them all.

Remember when in Super Metroid, the game Other M directly follows, Samus "kills" Ridley? Of course you do, it's one of the times you counted in the "Samus vs. Ridley" tally of why she shouldn't be afraid of him. Now, do you also remember the part where the entire planet blew up and no one saw Ridley escape it!?!? By all accounts, Ridley was still on planet Zebes when it blew up. Now, I understand Samus is pretty cool under preasure, but if I had an arch-nemesis that just survived a brutal beat-down by me, which was followed by a planet exploding on him(!!!!!!!) I'd be seriously considering my life decisions and career goals at that moment, right before I crap out my intestines and cry to anyone near-by to make the bad space dragon monster go away! Yes, there's hyperbole in there, but that's just how rediculously scary that would be! This guy survived an explosion from something that killed Mother Brain, which would probably be that of many, many megatons of blast force, after getting the crap kicked out of him. Hope that puts some perspective on that.
Maybe I'm looking too deeply into things, or trying to find excuses without realising my brain is doing it, but for me, Other M has so far been a great experience. The gameplay is fluent, for the most part, and the story so far has been very good, if a bit more Japanese than I would like it to be. I think people just jumped the gun on crying about their "Ripley" becoming this very scared little girl, when in reality, this is what most people are like when confronted with severe problems all their life. The unfortunate part is that no one can see past the cutscenes of her being fairly emotionally broken and look to where she actually sucks it all up and does her job as she always has: the strong female.
 

Gunner_Guardian

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Monk Ed said:
LordNue said:
The Great JT said:
Y'know, Moviebob made an interesting little video on this very subject.

In fact, here it is. [http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2010/09/episode-40-heavens-to-metroid.html]

Do I think Other M ruined Samus? No. Up to this point we've really been using Samus as sort of an expy for the main character from Aliens. Really up to this point Samus has never had a personality. You'd find more personality in Master Chief, and he's a personality-deficient brick. In Other M, her dialogue shows that she has fears, doubts, respect and other emotions that I can't recall off the top of my head. In other words, people are getting their panties in a bunch BECAUSE SHE WAS GIVEN A THREE-DIMENSIONAL PERSONALITY. Now yes, I do think they could've done things a little differently, but give the Team Ninja writing crew some credit, they at least didn't make Samus strip down to a bikini and seductively feed another woman a strawberry like they've done with other franchises.
Someone hasn't read this topic at all.
To be fair, it's close to 200 posts now, so let me provide a summary of the issue for those jumping in just now.

1) Those with misgivings about Other M's characterization of Samus are not primarily complaining about the fact that she was given a personality, but the fact that the style of portraying her personality suddenly whiplashed from her saying almost nothing to her telling us absolutely every little detail about her feelings, thus creating the impression that she is "whiny" and "overbearing". Even on a non-relative level, the exposition is amateurishly overwritten.

2) Team Ninja did not write the story, Nintendo did. Specifically, Yoshio Sakamoto, who if I recall has been the main writer of the series since Super Metroid.

3) For all the repetitive exposition we get, Samus's apparent inconsistencies of behavior with past entries are not given sufficient context, if they are justified at all. The fact that so many people are having these reactions and questions -- why is she trembling at the sight of an enemy she's beaten four times? Why is she taking orders after stating in Zero Mission how she hates taking orders? -- is sufficient to prove that that context is lacking.

^ Did I hit the major points? I tried to present it as neutrally as possible.
The Ridley one makes me think this would have made a lot more sense if this was a prequel to everything rather then a sequel. It would make sense that that would be the reaction Samus had the FIRST time she sees Ridley (he's the monster that killed her parents that would scare anyone) but after the what 5th time we're seeing him, he should be coming off as an annoyance by now.

In fact the whole game would have worked perfectly if it was a prequel.
 

Nicarus

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I read the article, and I would say "Yes, they changed her." But let's not forget that this was a different company's take on Samus (which thank god was not as drastic as Dante) and I'm sure after people mention stuff about this, they'll bring her back to form.

Everyone's got their bad case at least once or so, I'm sure Samus is no different.
 

Monk Ed

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Servantes said:
Samus isn't a emotional person, SHES A GOD DAMN BOUNTY HUNTER, that alone should imply that she doesn't really care all that much to who shes hunting or killing for that matter or who is trying to tell her what to do, if that was the case this sure as hell isn't the character to choose or even try to get to "feel".
I have no idea where you got this impression other than Star Wars. Samus is not Boba Fett. And she's been characterized unambiguously as a feeling person since Metroid Fusion... 8 years ago. Even in the Prime series, she showed emotion; for example, as someone previously said, she reached out to try to save Dark Samus from falling off a cliff even though she/it was an enemy.
 

CheckD3

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Monk Ed said:
CheckD3 said:
Now you have Other M, a game that take the Prime triology and the classic 2D style games and merges them, attempting to build on Prime 3's lead into voice acting the story and giving Samus a personality. It may not have been done right, but it's a step in the direction that leads to greatness.

I'd rather have them play around with Samus (or myself playing with Zero-suit, rwawr, lol) as a character while working with new gameplay mechanics then them doing what they did to Mario. Making the same kind of adventure that they've done since the begging of Mario.
THIS! Dear god, THIS! Every word!

One thing I like to remind myself of when I get down about how badly Samus's story was told in Other M is that Nintendo, after Wind Waker, gave the fans what they had been clamoring for in Twilight Princess. I hope that Nintendo will learn from the backlash to this entry and push future portrayals of Samus towards the happy middle ground between her overdone exposition in Other M and her total or near-total lack of it in most previous entries.

What I'm afraid of is the possibility that they'll overreact and go too far back in the other direction to play it safe, though. One thing I fault the Prime games for is that they were much, much too conservative with characterizing Samus. Next to the original Metroid, the Prime games are the absolutely most conservative about Samus's personality -- they are the only ones since the original in which she doesn't even speak in text!

The sweet spot, I'd wager, is somewhere between Other M and Zero Mission. Less tell, more show -- as opposed to Prime, which is just less, period.
I loved the Prime trilogy. The 1st person view gave us a new outlook at the world, worked pretty well on both Wii and GC, and as stated had good graphics. The lack of story (and backtracking to find the 8 hidden things, and backtracking in extreme they gave us :p) is what made the experience lackluster. Gameplay wise was fine. One of best gaming moments came when I was facing Meta-Ridley on my chair that rolled, and I was LITERALLY sliding my chair as I dodged, even though I'd beaten the fucker time and time again.

Metroid has almost NEVER been about the story. Most we got were from Fusion and Zero Mission. ZM from the time you went Zero Suit (sorta) and Fusion was about the relationsihp between her and the Comp based on Adam. I liked Fusion a LOT and thought it balanced it kinda well, still less about the story but giving us something. Primes were no story except to set up fights and tell us where to go next.

I really need to play Other M now, even if it's total crap, because it's fucking Metroid.
 

Servantes

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Monk Ed said:
Servantes said:
Samus isn't a emotional person, SHES A GOD DAMN BOUNTY HUNTER, that alone should imply that she doesn't really care all that much to who shes hunting or killing for that matter or who is trying to tell her what to do, if that was the case this sure as hell isn't the character to choose or even try to get to "feel".
I have no idea where you got this impression other than Star Wars. Samus is not Boba Fett. And she's been characterized unambiguously as a feeling person since Metroid Fusion... 8 years ago. Even in the Prime series, she showed emotion; for example, as someone previously said, she reached out to try to save Dark Samus from falling off a cliff even though she/it was an enemy.
Indeed I retract that last statement a valid reply about corruption, Must be the nerd rage, tis blinding.
 

Vhite

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Im not against expanding the character but when you turn her into whiny little ***** then it pretty much ruined for me, Spoonys word on this matter sealed it form me.
 

Escapefromwhatever

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LeonLethality said:
Ruined? No, it added character to an otherwise uninteresting character.

Other M made the series much more interesting and I hope to see more Metroid titles like it.
It added shitty, overly wordy, sexist character to a stoic, proud, wise, clever character who has been a staple of characterization through visual methods rather than words.
 

Wintermoot

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no coincedntly I just saw a game overthinker for it here is the link
: http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2010/09/episode-40-heavens-to-metroid.html
 

Monk Ed

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LordNue said:
There wasn't a lack of story. You could easily find it in the scans throughout all 3 games, that told you what happened on the planets, not to mention the overarching story of Phazon and DarkSamus through the trilogy and a fair bit of the backtracking can be cut out in Prime and Corruption. Sure a few of the things might require some later upgrades to get, but you can still pick up a lot of artifacts/cells before you reach the end of the game if you explored well enough. Echoes was the only one that was outright terrible with the final key hunt. But the story, which was entirely optional for the most part, was part of what made it so great. It added to the atmosphere. You were on a dead or dying planet where the civilization was mostly gone, of course there wouldn't be anyone to tell you what was happening and your only real clues besides "pirates be here" to what was going on was through the remains they left behind, and reading through them sets up the entire world for you, and to find everything you need to explore which is what the series should be focusing on. What it's known for, something that was apparently so good and fresh that even Castlevania and Kirby started to copy it for a bit.
In MPT there was certainly a lack of story regarding Samus. Prime's stories really had nothing to do with Samus; they were basically filler. (Echoes in particular is the biggest case of "Hey guys what's going on" ever for her.) Good filler, but still ultimately The Miscellaneous Inconsequential Side-Missions of Samus. That's just not a sustainable or progressive model for the series. ...If you already understand this and were making some other point, I apologize.

Addendum upon seeing the post right before this one: Jesus this topic keeps going around and around.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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@Monk Ed:

Yes, I agree that the actual PLOT had its flaws (a basic narrative, side characters except for Adam and Anthony were personality-deficient and there were some major holes) and the monologues were overdone at times (just like in the original release of Blade Runner actually). But if there is ONE thing I will defend to the death it's Samus. As for my comments, well, there is ONLY so much bile I can take before my patience snaps

@HellsingerAngel:

That's a lot better explanation than I could have done (though you'll be getting some people saying "tl;dr"), kudos
 

AgDr_ODST

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Russian_Assassin said:
This argument is idiotic. Where does it state that Samus is a cold blooded ***** that eats testicles for lunch? Actually, moviebob said it better than me: http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-40-Heavens-to-Metroid

It made a one dimensional character third dimensional and suddenly that is a bad thing? Are we really that accustomed to the emotionless angry fuckheads that wouldn't smile even if they won a billion dollars while getting sucked off by Angelina Jolie and watching "insert hilarious movie title here" that we can't accept any other character archetype?
I admit I at first agreed with the IGN article, Morgans G4 review, and the howling whiners who were pissed off by This 'weakening of Samus' by doing what they did to give character. But after Watching Moviebobs break down of it all I agree with him(some what atleast). I do think that waiting to be told by Malkovich to save her own ass with her heat suit is stupid though
 

Sven und EIN HUND

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Moviebob saves all


http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-40-Heavens-to-Metroid

Note: This may or may not have been posted in this thread yet, admittedly I didn't take the time to read through the entiiiiiiiiiiiire comments section
 

Monk Ed

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LordNue said:
Oh, you meant in regards to Samus herself. I thought you meant story period. My mistake, it was nice talking about a far better game though. But I dunno, none of the other games barring perhaps fusion really were about Samus either. Metroid was just "Go stop pirates" Metroid 2 was just "Go kill metroids" Super Metroid was "Go do this thing you already did and don't cock it up this time, also they took that metroid you found". The prime series just followed suit. And honestly is it that bad to not revolve the entire world around her? Having just brief, subtle glimpses into her mind and personality through her actions and whatnot rather then just spurts of exposition they vomit at us?
To be clear, I'm not the guy you were responding to in the response I quoted. I just kind of jumped in.

The thing is, people were already aching for a change from the formula you describe. As I said somewhere before, after playing alongside Samus for so long, I wanted to finally learn about her -- and the little glimpses we see in Prime, etc only make that yearning stronger rather than satisfying it. It's not that the game series has to revolve around her; it's that it has not for so long that she deserves to get a little more orbital revolution, know what I mean? Maybe not through "vomited exposition" but through something more than four or five brief shots of her face throughout a game.
 

HellsingerAngel

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Aiddon said:
@HellsingerAngel:

That's a lot better explanation than I could have done (though you'll be getting some people saying "tl;dr"), kudos
Considering this is the first responce to my second post in this thread, I doubt anyone will even notice. However, thanks for the nod. I just hope people read it and actually have a good think about what I've said before posting, if they're going to post.

Also, TL;DR misses the point of an argument. There are nuances I can't explain in TL;DR for a discussion to occur.
 

Sven und EIN HUND

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I actually posted the Moviebob video link, then realised it had been posted several several several times in this thread already, so I'll just ago ahead and state that I agree with Moviebob.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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HellsingerAngel said:
Aiddon said:
@HellsingerAngel:

That's a lot better explanation than I could have done (though you'll be getting some people saying "tl;dr"), kudos
Considering this is the first responce to my second post in this thread, I doubt anyone will even notice. However, thanks for the nod. I just hope people read it and actually have a good think about what I've said before posting, if they're going to post.

Also, TL;DR misses the point of an argument. There are nuances I can't explain in TL;DR for a discussion to occur.
This is what I think about every time I hear a criticism of Samus that says "whiny *****" or "cowardly, meek little girl": do we DESERVE to have to Supreme Court rule in our favor come that case that Extra Credits talked about? If THIS is how we're going to act when someone tries to make a narrative that tries to show a character in a three-dimensional, non-macho manner while making her strong, flawed, and emotive, then are WE just getting our just desserts when gaming is looked down upon? To me this just feels like the medium is going through its angry 90s comic book phase.