Poll: Metroid: Other M killed Samus

[HellsingerAngel]

I only skimmed past here because you clearly either didn't read what I wrote or failed pretty hard at comprehension. What part of, "It's great that she's flawed and has emotions other than grim determination," makes it seem like I want her to be Duke Nukem with boobs? The problem is that those flaws and (negative) emotions completely overshadowed any other character traits to make it seem like that was all she had.

And let's be clear, they didn't make her a 3 dimensional character. They made her two separate and conflicting 1 dimensional characters. One was a cold and efficient killing machine during gameplay while the other was a terrified girl overwhelmed by self-doubt during any other time. The second personality becomes 2 dimensional at best towards the end of game, but she's never successfully married to the gameplay character to create that 3 dimensional human (chozo) being we might be looking for. Even if it had, the character arc was still grossly out of place because she's been a badass bounty hunter (destroyer of worlds) for over a decade at this point. If this were a prequel to the whole series, it just might have worked. As is, it failed in nearly every way characterization can.

Apparently you did skim past ehre because you completely ignored half my argument, but let me reitterate =)

1. Gameplay is narrative. Until you get that, you'll never understand why Other M doesn't make Samus a strong female lead for you.

2. You're grossly blowing two scenes in the entire game out of proportion. To prove just that, just read my lengthy post above that looks at the entire game from the movie clip experience and still has very little "blubbery non ass kicking" Samus while having justifiable points for the moments she is.

3. Your presuposition of her not being emotional is your own fault. That's your image of her. You do not own the creative rights to Samus, thus you cannot say "that is what she is" because clearly, she isn't. If you're disappointed that she isn't, that's fine. To say she's a bad character because of it, however, is nerd rage.

4. In my review, I actually did put a supposition that she is very closely tied to Melissa in terms of character development. She seems to display little to no emtoion previous to her finding the Metroid. Honestly, she could've been a cold hearted killer up until Other M when she starts to doubt that persona of herself because of Baby. Really, that ties in perfectly with the narrative of the serise, especially on how they ended the game with all the growth she went through as a person.

In any case, I strongly suggest you read this post: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.233898.8276274 and I strongly encourage feed back.

 

[sunburst]

3. Your presuposition of her not being emotional is your own fault. That's your image of her. You do not own the creative rights to Samus, thus you cannot say "that is what she is" because clearly, she isn't. If you're disappointed that she isn't, that's fine. To say she's a bad character because of it, however, is nerd rage.

You still haven't read and understood my posts because I still didn't say that. I'm not going to care about your arguments until you stop pretending I've said things that other people besides me might have said just because you have a ready made reply for that.

 

[demoman_chaos]

Team Ninja turned Samus into their kind of woman, submissive and whiny while still being able to mass murder for no reason.
I am just surprised they didn't give her a boob job to make her look more like the girls in their games.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

You still haven't read and understood my posts because I still didn't say that. I'm not going to care about your arguments until you stop pretending I've said things that other people besides me might have said just because you have a ready made reply for that.

Considering you've done nothing but stand by your laurals instead of trying to rephrase your point or come up with counter points, I find the "head in the sand" approach to be a little degrading. Regardless, I'll go ahead and debate on your terms.

Samus Aran is:

-An intellectual person with amazing outside the box thinking. She puzzle solves her way through various mazes, can cross examine someone's story to find faults in them, and overall find little niche clues to uncover the truths within a secrative conspiracy.

-A caring individual. Her realtionship with Baby was certainly a paternal one and she cared for that little guy more than anything. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see much of that within Other M, but reminants of it through the beginning cutscene and her encounter with the first Metroid baby both elude to her relationship with Baby. Also, she has strong ties with both Anthony as one of her good friends and Adam as her best friend/father figure. She was emotionally impacted by both dying and certainly showed affection for both, as well as regret for not living up to what she believed she could be.

-A stone cold killer. She beat Ridley and the Queen Metroid. Nuff said.

-Strong willed individual. In the face of adversity, she rarely falters. She stands her ground for what she beleives in. Her conviction was certainly questioned within Other M, but when the chips were on the table, Samus stood her ground and did what needed to be done, regardless of risk involved. This si certainly exemplified that once Anthony took his fall, Samus felt obligated to get through Ridley, even if Anthony was most likely dead, to save him.

-An insecure woman. It's a big bad universe out there. She's alone for the most part and that really shone in Other M. Everytime she felt alone she would start to think to herself and sometimes worry or panic just a tiny bit. Being alone for as long as she has doesn't mean she's a loner, it means her business takes her away from those she cares about. This was very apparent throughout this game.

-She's not a people person. This isn't to say that she doesn't enjoy company. Clearly she liked the comradery of Anthony and the familiarity of structure that Adam represented. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean she's a huge talker. She barely has any dialogue apart from the complete strangers in this game, perfering to analyse herself than talk. A woman of few words, Samus is not the social butterfly of any group.

Really, that's a pretty fleshed out character right there. Five points of reference by using only one game. Whether they choose to expand that is up to Nintendo, but I think they did a great job of introducing the real Samus Aran within one game.

 

[Z(ombie)fan]

your kidding.

you... fucking... OH MY GOD. hes SILENT. that IS his character. he is the adventure boy. the kid you control and don't pay attention to. he isnt the only one is much better silent. whats wrong with silent protagonists? look at the doomguy. I wouldnt change a thing to him. there is a character there: he likes to kill monsters. there. good enough. silent protagonists work. have a couple things point to what they are, but for the love of god, DONT MAKE THE PLAYER CHARACTER TALK.

Everything is wrong with Silent protagonists dude, they are gone dead, only nintendo/Valve fanboys cling to the Mute character now, to qoute Yahtzee "Nowadays people are used to protagonists with more depth than a spoon" and I agree with that, its the person your playing as, you meant to care if they die...how can you care about a character that doesn't talk and has NO plot Development at all? the truth is; you can't.

false.
"Everything is wrong with Silent protagonists dude,"
... no.
"they are gone dead"
and now we have pointlessly whiny characters! yay!
"they are gone dead, only nintendo/Valve fanboys cling to the Mute character now"
Im not a fanboy of either, but mute characters you can fill in the blanks, its alot more relateable, and what if you play a character whose personality is nothing like yours? what about tidus or sora? both characters are fucking annoying. now imagine the game only where instead of spewing poorly written dialogue, they spoke in body language. was just there for the ride, and that we the players and he the character would both feel that way. It would be a million times more effective than the tripe the game gives you.
"to qoute Yahtzee "Nowadays people are used to protagonists with more depth than a spoon" and I agree with that"
a character doesn't need dialogue for depth.
"its the person your playing as, you meant to care if they die"
you are effectively them. I care if I die.
"how can you care about a character that doesn't talk and has NO plot Development at all? the truth is; you can't."
wrong. silent doesn't mean they don't develop. go play mother 3, the characters don't talk, yet they develop and have depth. I know not many games have writing all that solid, but for the love of god, there isn't anything wrong with asking for it.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

You still haven't read and understood my posts because I still didn't say that. I'm not going to care about your arguments until you stop pretending I've said things that other people besides me might have said just because you have a ready made reply for that.

Considering you've done nothing but stand by your laurals instead of trying to rephrase your point or come up with counter points, I find the "head in the sand" approach to be a little degrading. Regardless, I'll go ahead and debate on your terms.

Samus Aran is:

-An intellectual person with amazing outside the box thinking. She puzzle solves her way through various mazes, can cross examine someone's story to find faults in them, and overall find little niche clues to uncover the truths within a secrative conspiracy.

-A caring individual. Her realtionship with Baby was certainly a paternal one and she cared for that little guy more than anything. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see much of that within Other M, but reminants of it through the beginning cutscene and her encounter with the first Metroid baby both elude to her relationship with Baby. Also, she has strong ties with both Anthony as one of her good friends and Adam as her best friend/father figure. She was emotionally impacted by both dying and certainly showed affection for both, as well as regret for not living up to what she believed she could be.

-A stone cold killer. She beat Ridley and the Queen Metroid. Nuff said.

-Strong willed individual. In the face of adversity, she rarely falters. She stands her ground for what she beleives in. Her conviction was certainly questioned within Other M, but when the chips were on the table, Samus stood her ground and did what needed to be done, regardless of risk involved. This si certainly exemplified that once Anthony took his fall, Samus felt obligated to get through Ridley, even if Anthony was most likely dead, to save him.

-An insecure woman. It's a big bad universe out there. She's alone for the most part and that really shone in Other M. Everytime she felt alone she would start to think to herself and sometimes worry or panic just a tiny bit. Being alone for as long as she has doesn't mean she's a loner, it means her business takes her away from those she cares about. This was very apparent throughout this game.

-She's not a people person. This isn't to say that she doesn't enjoy company. Clearly she liked the comradery of Anthony and the familiarity of structure that Adam represented. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean she's a huge talker. She barely has any dialogue apart from the complete strangers in this game, perfering to analyse herself than talk. A woman of few words, Samus is not the social butterfly of any group.

Really, that's a pretty fleshed out character right there. Five points of reference by using only one game. Whether they choose to expand that is up to Nintendo, but I think they did a great job of introducing the real Samus Aran within one game.

And now ZP's review of the game is up. Y'know what that means. -sigh-

 

[sunburst]

-snip-

I interpreted the character very differently from you because you were able to connect the gameplay with the story while the game utterly failed to do that for me. All I saw was the long self-deprecating diary entries juxtaposed harshly against all the badass feats she accomplished while I was playing only to see her once again fall apart once I was no longer in control. I admit that it got better towards the end, but this isn't the right place in the Metroid series to have that type of character arc because she's already been the biggest badass in the galaxy for years.

Also, earlier you said that the strong and independent Samus we thought we knew didn't exist but also mentioned that gameplay is narrative. How do you reconcile those two statements? Everyone believed Samus was an independent badass because we've been playing her games for over a decade and she always gets shit done on her own. She's committed genocide and destroyed planets and kicked Ridley's ass all over space without needing or wanting help from anyone. The narrative of the gameplay said she was strong and independent. Sure, she could have any number of emotions under the surface but they never once affected her actions or prevented her from kicking ass. If gameplay is narrative then the Samus Aran we saw in the majority of Other M is inconsistent with the narrative we've experienced with the entire series.

 

[Manji187]

Just do the Zelda trick...declare it a parallel universe. There...problem solved. The real Samus is still badass.

 

[Iwata]

If you spend more than a decade with a character establishing certain traits, it's better if your first installment focusing on story doesn't take a piss on the past decade and a half.

So yes, I do agree with the article.

 

[Warachia]

Well curse my double posting. I'm of the firm opinion that fan input needs to be extraordinarily careful. For instance, on WoW, game balance was originally pretty good, but as patches come out increasing the power of certain classes, people flood the forums upset about the way their classes are no longer relevant, so Blizzard listens and buffs a class and nerfs another class, and viola, WoW is a game I haven't played in ages simply because everything changes so often. Due to fan input.

OoT was one of the most highly praised Zelda games Nintendo ever made, but when Twilight Princess was modeled similarly, it tanked. Albeit the game was retardedly easy, but I hope you see what I'm getting at here. When a developer sticks to their idea of what the game should be, and it's a good game from the start, they generally make decisions that are at least in the best interest of the game.

Halo is an extraordinarily popular game, but if you look at the game mechanics, it's like watching Cuddy and House on Fox. Will they or won't they?! It's a mystery! Will they use dual wielding this game? Will there be recharging health or medpacks? Armor abilities or equipment? Every game changes mechanics due to fan input.

At the other end of the spectrum you have the somewhat less popular TF2, which has more than doubled in size since it was originally released, and some of that content is fan suggested! But by and large, most fan input is placed aside, in the best interest of the game! Now if Team Ninja had thought about the BEST INTEREST of the game in addition to listening to FAN INPUT, we might have ended up with a Metroid game filled with cutscenes about Samus kicking peoples asses in!

It's also not so much fan input, as that can slaughter a game as well, but quality control, for example, Bioware looked at fan comments for Mass Effect, implemented some, threw away others, and made the game better for it. Nobody should ever be of the mindset they know exactly what is right, or the only proper way to do something without outside input.

 

[TLatshaw]

He has bad games, but does that ruin how good his original games were? Is the sole concept of Sonic as a character destroyed, or can a new, better game bring back the old mindset? It's at least arguable. Also:

hmm if they would suddenly make a GOOD sonic game, hell, then indeed i would take back my words, and sonic might be revived.

also: sonic says! smoking isent cool

Exactly. Video game characters aren't as set in stone as characters in movies and books. They are easily molded by whomever is in control of the current title, but the player has always had the power to pick and choose what they like best about the characters as well, creating their own image.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

I interpreted the character very differently from you because you were able to connect the gameplay with the story while the game utterly failed to do that for me. All I saw was the long self-deprecating diary entries juxtaposed harshly against all the badass feats she accomplished while I was in control only to see her once again fall apart once I was no longer in control. I admit that it got better towards the end, but this isn't the right place in the Metroid series to have that type of character arc because she's already been the biggest badass in the galaxy for years.

Yup, I completely understand. Which is why as a culture we need to get passed the whole seperation of cinematics and gameplay as two seperate narratives. A game is weaving a narrative through the entire experience. Just because you have control of Samus, doesn't mean that if it were a movie she'd be doing anything differently. I think the best and most unbias way of doing this with Other M is the "movie" feature where you can view everything without playing. It really brings everything together in a two hour experience. My point is bascially that when you start dividing the narrative, it's going to look disjointed, which is the entire problem you seem to be having. Samus would look like two different characters (almost) if you seperated the gameplay and the cutscenes as two individual narratives.

Also, earlier you said that the strong and independent Samus we thought we knew didn't exist but also mentioned that gameplay is narrative. How do you reconcile those two statements? Everyone believed Samus was an independent badass because we've been playing her games for over a decade and she always gets shit done on her own. She's committed genocide and destroyed planets and kicked Ridley's ass all over space without needing or wanting help from anyone. The narrative of the gameplay said she was strong and independent. Sure, she could have any number of emotions under the surface but they never once affected her actions or prevented her from kicking ass. If gameplay is narrative then the Samus Aran we saw in the majority of Other M is inconsistent with the narrative we've experienced with the entire series.

That is so taken out of context it isn't even fair, but you make a valid point none the less. My issue is that gamers have this preconseeved notion of who Samus Aran is. It's a definate instead of an opinion or theory. "I think Samus is..." never came up, it was just "Samus is..." and when that mold was shattered everyone got upset over it. Nintendo certainly dug their own grave with the silent protagonists hanging around for far too long and now everyone has personal bias on how character act, feel and should be when maybe that just wasn't how Nintendo invisioned then.

The strangest manifestation of this beast is certainly that Samus isn't a one-dimensional character. When you think someone like Mario, you pretty much can predict how he'll be, and I'm sure Miyamoto will agree that he's fairly one-dimensional but still a really cool guy. The issue with Samus is that we all expected this hardcore, stone cold, ice queen ***** and what we got is a real human being (or as close to) with real emotions that a bounty hunter void of social contact and a troubling past might have. Really, the atypical bounty hunter other than Samus is Boba Fett, and the only other space faring badass is Ripley from Alien. Realistically, Boba is only being fleshed out this season in Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Ripley is pretty interchangable with Samus in every context (superhuman badass alien hunter that doesn't take crap form nobody but is actually somewhat insecure/unsure of herself and wants nothing more than to nurture something/someone) and the issue with connection with this being that while you can fully immerse yourself with Ripley duct taping her rifle and flamethrower together for the final fight, you're a little too busy pressing A and watching for enemies to dodge when you see Samus at her peek ass kickingness and it doesn't sink in contextually.

The other pitfall is that most platforms that Samus has been on (with the exception of the Gamecube) didn't really have the technical capabilities of telling narrative all that exceptionally. I'm not sure about the technical side of things int erms of space and processing power, but I assume if they could have, they would have tried to give some nod to who Samus was in Super Metroid, or even the original. As was already discussed, Fusion did have moments with narrative, but that's all we really have to go by. Looking back (and I even said this is my giant rediculous post) I think that Prime did it wrong. They had the technology to weave a story like Other M and they chose not to. Yes, still amazing games and I like how the story is told, but could they have done a better job going about it? Absolutely, especially with the technology they had on hand. For whatever reason they didn't push the envelope of giving Samus a fully developed personality and that hurt her a lot this time around. I'm sure it would've been the same regardless of when it happened, but then again "haters gonna hate", right?

I just wish people would at least discuss things instead of just going "no, I'm right! Samus sucks! /thread!" instead of going through the narrative piece by piece and analysing it. When you actually look at the entire argument, it's based around two factual points and one ficticious point: Ridley scares Samus, Samus cries over Adam and Adam dominates Samus which is sexist. The first two points are great and I think they're there to cause debate about the character as all iconic characters flaws are, but I just despise when it's done unintelligably. The third, however, is pure myth. Yes, a man gives her directions. So what? You need to look at the motives of Samus. She's from a military background, Adam is a reveared colleague and she goes as far as to call him her father figure and her best friend. They're in a Federation space station so they have juristiction there. All signs point to "being a man" as not being a reason. If the case is that if Adam were Eve, Samus would still act the same, then it's not sexist. I just can't understand how people can't see that. It's just as sexist to say "Samus kicks ass, takes names and is a woman!" because the key word there is "woman".

 

[sunburst]

-snip-

On your first point, I didn't separate the gameplay and the cinematics. They did. In order for me to combine the two into one coherent whole, they have to work together. Like I said before, the juxtaposition was simply too harsh for me to do that. We had a self-deprecating and completely uncertain girl trying to fuse with a completely fearless badass who kills without emotion. There was no mixing of the two. None of one was present in the other. I firmly believe that weaving the narrative into the gameplay is the cornerstone of good game design and a necessary step towards making interactive art but it doesn't happen just because the game designer want it to. They have to make the two work together and Metroid: Other M simply did not accomplish that for me. It got better towards the end but that was too little, too late.

As for your second, it's not that Samus following Adam's orders is inherently sexist. It's the way she constantly doubts herself while following his orders in order to prove she can be a good soldier, even through absolutely retarded situations like the lava level, that weakens her character and is taken as a hit to the independent strength that has become such a feminist icon. And as I mentioned before, that independent strength was told to us through nearly every gameplay decision made in the series before now. Taking that away from her in any way is certain to be seen as a large blow to feminism in gaming which makes the outrage both inevitable and understandable.

The bottom line is that Samus can have all the emotions and doubts and character development she wants without harming her image, but it becomes a betrayal of the series as soon as those feelings begin affecting her ability to get shit done the same way she always has. I mean sure, people are going to ***** no matter how they give her personality but there's nothing you can do about that.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

On your first point, I didn't separate the gameplay and the cinematics. They did. In order for me to combine the two into one coherent whole, they have to work together. Like I said before, the juxtaposition was simply too harsh for me to do that. We had an self-deprecating and completely uncertain girl trying to fuse with a completely fearless badass who kills without emotion. There was no mixing of the two. None of one was present in the other. I firmly believe that weaving the narrative into the gameplay is the cornerstone of good game design and a necessary step towards making interactive art but it doesn't happen just because the game designer want it to. They have to make the two work together and Metroid: Other M simply did not accomplish that for me. It got better towards the end but that was too little, too late.

Again, agree to disagree. I think most of the cutscenes ended themselves on "And Samus does badass X stance, what will you do now!?" and your decision is how her character plays out. I don't need a cutscene to set anything up for me. I could play an entire game without cutscenes and still know that Samus Aran is a total badass with daddy issues if my entire mission was dictated through a bunch of text bubbles doted about checkpoints. Then again, I come form an era where this was the norm. Maybe old school eyes in new school era? I dunno. All I know is that reading between the lines is something people tend not to do and just because only the last five seconds of the cutscene shows her defiantly snubbing Ridley with her palsma cannon, I can live with that reality and glean what I need from it.

Not invalidating your point, just saying where I come from.

As for your second, it's not that Samus following Adam's orders is inherently sexist. It's the way she constantly doubts herself while following his orders in order to prove she can be a good soldier, even through absolutely retarded situations like the lava level, that weakens her character and is taken as a hit to the independent strength that has become such a feminist icon. And as I mentioned before, that independent strength was told to us through nearly every gameplay decision made in the series before now. Taking that away from her in any way is certain to be seen as a large blow to feminism in gaming which makes the outrage both inevitable and understandable.

The bottom line is that Samus can have all the emotions and doubts and character development she wants without harming her image, but it becomes a betrayal of the series as soon as those feelings begin affecting her ability to get shit done the same way she always has. I mean sure, people are going to ***** no matter how they give her personality but there's nothing you can do about that.

Apparently you've never seen a soldier. Then again, that's a blanket statement. From my experience, soldiers are well trained machines of death, bred to take orders without question. It's just how the military works. It's kinda funny and jarring at the same time to see some of the most opinionated of my friends absolutely shut their brains off and go to work when someone barks out a command like a drill seargent. The fact is that stuff never gets bred out of you and Samus coming back to her old commander probably brought about that trained instinct again. In the second cutscene she was about to offer her assistance (strange for Miss. Aran indeed) before they were attacked. I just think it's a mentality that never quite left her and was brought out by Adam again.

 

[Anggul]

The voice acting for Samus was terrible.

This, however, does /not/ mean she was ruined, just that her voice in Other M sounds prettymuch dead. Was the writer of that article completely fails to mention is that she's speaking of what she was like before, not long after her family were slaughtered by Ridley, not what she is like in any of the games. So whilst I agree that the voice and much of the blatantly obvious things said are ridiculous, I still would not agree that it ruined her. The fact is she overcame the difficulties. (Perfectly reasonable ones too if you think of your planet being attacked and butchered by space pirates and your family being killed by a purple space dragon.)

 

[Johnnyallstar]

Yes and no. They tried to humanize her, but they didn't do it well. They attempted to make her seem like a fragile creature who only does what's necessary in cutscenes, but during gameplay might as well be the mute murderess counterpart to Master Chief.

It's not that it ruined, or killed Samus at all. They just tried to characterize her half way.

You, and everyone else, need to stop incorrectly using the term "murder."

Murder and killing are not the same thing. The difference is justification. Considering she generally runs around killing space pirates, imperialistic invaders, and other mass murderers, she is not committing murder, generally. She is killing, yes, but not murdering. Killing Hitler, for example, would not have been murder. Killing an innocent person would be. The difference? Justification.

Well Seig Heil Mister Grammar Nazi. I'm sorry you really didn't understand the satire that I was using to present what I was saying. I know the difference between war, murder, and manslaughter. But sometimes one word works more poetically than another, and will be used so. So, I'll make a deal with you. I'll use war, murder, killing, manslaughter, accidental fatality, casualty, acceptable losses, etc. etc. etc. correctly on one stipulation. That you learn to accept and appreciate satire, poetic license, and a broader use of variety within language.

Secondly, yes, by all technicality, you are right, but please please PLEASE chill out and relax. You'll live a lot longer, have less stomach ulcers, lower chance of heart disease, and make more friends.

 

[targren]

Gotta disagree.

It was a crap game, with crap writing and crap gameplay, but so was Fusion, and that didn't kill Samus. The addition of crap voice acting isn't enough to do that, IMO.

If they keep up the trend of crap games, then maybe THAT will kill Metroid. This was just a horrible abortion of a Metroid game, but every series gets its stinkers.

In 5 years when they get around to making the next Metroid we'll see if the pattern holds (hopefully it's a 2D Metroidvania on the DS, dammit!)

 

[Lunar Templar]

twice, and while i see your point, it, being other M, dosen't bother all that much outside the odd moments, yes, she should be less submissive and whinny, but all this can likely be pinned on Team Ninja for thinking it was a good idea, and Nintendo for giving it to them to begin with -.-

There's something funny you should know, the person who wrote the game and the characterization of Samus was the original Co-Creator of the character.

Yeah, I laughed too when I learned this. So...yeah,it WAS Nintendo's fault. Team Ninja only worked on the gameplay.

Actually he wasn't. He was the director of the original game along with Gunpei Yokoi. Hiroji Kiyotake and Makoto Kano created Samus.

*facepalms* lovely ....

 

[Nomanslander]

I think that if Nintendo wanted to give their Samus Aran a more third dimensional feel in a sci fi setting they should have given the job to Bioware and not the creators of Dead or Alive Volleyball whatever and jiggle physics.

-_-