Poll: Sexual Assault

[thedailylunatic]

Also another point: I work in a bar and I've had all manner of threats from both drunk and sober people alike but one of the most pertinent and egregious was this:

A girl who looked about 17 came in with her friends, I asked her for ID, she didn't have any I did the usual, I'm sorry can't serve you etc. etc. and she then looked me dead in the eye and told me that if I didn't serve her, she would phone the police and tell them I raped her. This terrified me, because even though I hadn't done anything, that kind of allegation could entirely ruin my life, I'm effectively a public figure in my town, I'm a well known bar person I know most of the regular drinkers in town, but at the time and know they'd all know better.

But at the time, I was new, I wasn't well known and this kind of situation is terrifying to a person. I stood my ground and counted on CCTV to help me out here.

Thanks for sharing! That's some rough stuff.

 

[Fox12]

snip

I don't think your comment is deserving of hate at all. This isn't an echo chamber, I want to hear people's honest opinions.

I was, and still am, skeptical of the 1-in-5 statistic as far as rape goes. I know victims who are dear to me, but if I listed off all the women I know, the vast majority haven't faced this horrible crime. Even in high schools they taught us this.

However, I do think that more then 1-in-5 women have faced sexual assault or sexual harassment. Rape, and sexual assault in general, are under reported among both genders, which strikes me as unfortunate. There will always be radical groups that go beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior, but I don't think we should let that vocal minority poison the well, so to speak. Rather, I think we need to re-evaluate the way we look at rape, which is difficult, because people get understandably sensitive. Many people are falsely accused of rape each year, and even if their exonerated, their reputation is often ruined. Other people are raped, and the scandal is covered up by schools, communities, or relatives. Some people are raped by their spouses, which is rarely viewed as rape. I don't know what the answer is. I really don't. But I think the best thing we can do is stop spreading misinformation to push an agenda, and try to get at the truth about what is happening in our countries. Because the sad truth is that we don't have enough concrete knowledge about the issue, and without concrete knowledge we can't solve the problem.

I'm also sorry to hear about your troubles. I've dealt with depression myself, and I have friends who have dealt with difficulties similar to yours. I don't know how to say anything that doesn't sound trite, but I hope everything works out for the best, because you're not alone.

 

[thedailylunatic]

snip

Snip

Thanks, Fox! That was a very thoughtful comment. And I'll definitely agree with you're saying and go beyond: I'm sure that almost all women suffer harassment at some point in their lives and most men do as well. I can't imagine living a social life without encountering that.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I too unfortunately, was violently raped before the age of 14 by a 24 yr old man I had never spoken to. I Have had other family members raped as well as many friends. Hell, one girl in my school was gang raped in the parking lot during a football game and nothing was ever done about it although the whole damn community knew about it at the time. People heard her screaming for help and no one would help her.
...
I am sure I probably forgot something there but tried to include what I could remember off the top that I thought would qualify.

EDIT: To be clear I am going to add reported or not reported by each to be clear to make sure this is not confused.

Just curious: what's the deal with your neighborhood? Is it the illegals or just failure of rule-of-law (for the record, I'm Hispanic; I'm just asking because I legit want to know)? That stuff is seriously f***ed. Reminds me of the ghetto I moved to for college. Girlfriends from out of town would always think i was nuts when I wouldn't let them walk the neighborhood alone at night. I'm DC born 'n' raised and everybody knows that girls don't take the Green Line alone at night.

Glad you're armed at least! Friendly reminder: just keep training until it's muscle memory! Stay safe! I'll be saying a prayer that, if you ever need to use it, you'll shoot true. <3

EDIT:
2 things:

1) I understand your point about victim-blaming, but respectfully disagree. Yeah I think it's BS when people are "liek omg get a gun!" But, at the same time, I'm a fundamentally science-driven person and the science just isn't behind the gender feminist practices of "changing men" to get them to "stop raping." Rape is kind of like murder; it's the kind of thing you stop/avoid rather than prevent through positive discourse. I don't blame anyone who's been raped for being raped, but that won't stop me from taking and encouraging tangibly proactive steps to keep women from getting raped in the future.

I had a life-changing experience a few years ago: a girl at a club, drunk as all get out, literally walked up and passed out in my arms. I was carrying her around the godawful place trying to find her friends when a guy walked up claiming to know her. I asked him her name and he guessed wrong. I'm guessing you can imagine how much I've wanted to murder this piece of s*** in the most violent emotion I've ever felt.

I move on because I'm busy taking care of the girl and, after the bartender tells me "oh yeah we don't do cab calls or let patrons use house phones" (the filthy bastard), I take her outside. There I call her a cab, direct the cabbie to her house, make sure she pays him in advance, then take a picture of his badge number and text it to her best friend in case he gets any ideas. She gets in the cab and everything's ok.

Then my girlfriend loses her s*** at me. Let's call her Social Justice Warrior Princess. She went ballistic on me for abandoning her during fun party time to "help some stupid drunk slut," her own previous devotion to the "anti-rape movement" be damned. I literally kept a psycho from making off with this girl and all she cared about was her own petty jealousy. I learned two things that night: the "abuser is the only one to blame" schtick is often used by people too lazy to stick their necks out for victims AND sometimes the best anti-rape defense isn't a gun, but someone who gives a f*** about you watching your back (though a .40 S&W JHP isn't the worst friend in the world either). That's why, no matter how lost I get at a party, I'm always keeping an eye out for people who are vulnerable: because I know in my guts that ideology prevents a lot less rape than nosy Boy/Girl Scouts like me who do the right thing at the wrong time.


2) Probably the reason why you scare off nice guys and attract creeps is a combination of attractiveness and an aggressive aspect/aura. The nice guys can't take the heat and the creeps want to fuck with you because you're a symbol of how worthless they are by comparison. I'm sorry, but it's not an easy problem to "fix." One of my best friends is the same way (totally hot and totally badass) and she managed to reliably connect with nice guys by learning to identify them and be a little more vulnerable with them than she's used to being. Takes practice, but she says it pays off. =)

What would "illegals" have to do with my neighborhood? My neighborhood is over 91% white, and the wealthiest per sq ft county in the state of Texas. I was raped by a white citizen. My sister was raped by a white citizen. My best friend was raped by a white citizen. The two men who tried to pull me into a truck were white males, most likely citizens. It is a wealthy low crime area. This is " my neighborhood" http://homesoftherich.net/2011/10/two-newly-built-mansions-in-heath-tx/
The man who raped me came from a very wealthy family. Women here are frequently viewed as accessories, like a nice car and they compete and show them off. I am not sure if that is the same environment you were comparing this to.

 

[Fox12]

snip

This, I think, is a very important point, and I'm glad you made it. Both of my friend were from decent neighborhoods. One was raped by her father behind closed doors. and the other, as I stated once before, was raped by a popular white upperclass kid with perfect grades. My friends who suffered from physical abuse came from similar backgrounds. This is especially true sense so many crimes happen on college campuses, many of which are situated in good communities. This is a societal problem that has more to it then community wealth.

Also, I read some of your posts, and I'm impressed by the courage of so many of the people on here, especially since this issue has affected so many people close to me.

 

[thedailylunatic]

Snip

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What would "illegals" have to do with my neighborhood? My neighborhood is over 91% white, and the wealthiest per sq ft county in the state of Texas. I was raped by a white citizen. My sister was raped by a white citizen. My best friend was raped by a white citizen. The two men who tried to pull me into a truck were white males, most likely citizens. It is a wealthy low crime area. This is " my neighborhood" http://homesoftherich.net/2011/10/two-newly-built-mansions-in-heath-tx/
The man who raped me came from a very wealthy family. Women here are frequently viewed as accessories, like a nice car and they compete and show them off. I am not sure if that is the same environment you were comparing this to.

Ahhh gotcha! Sorry, it's just that I hear a lot of bad stuff about things happening in border counties. Didn't know where you were.

Not a race thing. Like I said: Latin, myself. More of a practical thing: much easier to be a predator when you're undocumented because nobody's keeping track of you. We've had a lot of problem with Salvadoreno gang violence up here in DC including a number of high-profile cases. Remember the Butt Slasher that took the Internet by storm for five minutes way back when? He was one of ours: a South American illegal who fled his record of violent assaults against women in the home country.

Also, I hope that you don't take anything that I'm saying as condescending. I really don't mean to. Just trying to be honest and forthright. Tone is difficult on the Web.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just curious: what's the deal with your neighborhood? Is it the illegals or just failure of rule-of-law (for the record, I'm Hispanic; I'm just asking because I legit want to know)?

Why assume that is the case? The majority of rapists are otherwise fairly ordinary people, often respected by the rest of the community who will take their side. The Steubenville rapists come to mind, but only because the town has a memorable name. There's zillions of other examples. The idea that rapists have to be obviously unlike us is very popular, and results in all sorts of problems.

The first US state to criminalise marital rape did so in 1970, the last in 1993. Up until then, it wasn't considered a crime for a man to rape his wife. Thee attitudes haven't totally gone away.

But, at the same time, I'm a fundamentally science-driven person and the science just isn't behind the gender feminist practices of "changing men" to get them to "stop raping." Rape is kind of like murder; it's the kind of thing you stop/avoid rather than prevent through positive discourse.

Why?

There are plenty of people who wouldn't murder, regardless if someone was going to stop them or not, but the proportion varies across societies and over time. Likewise with rape.

Also, the fact that marital rape laws were introduced in the US means that US society's view on marital rape must have changed. It can change further.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

The 1/5 statistic is actually false and based on shoddy research methods. Real number is probably something from 1/10 to 1/7, not that it's necessarily much better but that's not even including a high prevalence of false reports.

There's no compelling evidence that there is a 'high prevalence of false reports' in sexual crimes, unless you use different criteria for shoddy research for that. It's a compelling myth that men like to believe women lie about it - guess it's more comforting.

http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

Your source has issues with it's source cited. Most are nowhere to be found. I found three.

1 This article of someones opinion, in which he himself uses a reshaped study.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404230831/http://www.thedenverchannel.com/kobebryanttrial/2812198/detail.html
Reshaped study
http://web.archive.org/web/20050310094808/http://www.menweb.org/throop/falsereport/kanin.html
Original study
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

2 This article pointing out that African-American men are disproportional accused, and exonerated from crimes in general.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DNA_Exonerations_Nationwide.php

3 This study that points out men who were exonerated of their rape charges. I have not read them all, but the ones I have read a rape had occued, the wrong person got the blame.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

If you track down the other sources let me know. I don't plan on fact checking you anymore after today.

 

[Chris Moses]

This poll confuses me... if you wanted to know how prevalent sexual assault is why not (also) ask how many people have been sexually assaulted?

I am a male and I voted yes, not because I have felt threatened so much as the fact that was date raped at a party. I felt that event was significant enough to vote yes despite the fact that I never felt threatened because of my gender even though my gender was under that threat at least at that instance.

I still don't feel threatened though I am more careful of what I do and what I drink at parties. Maybe I am taking the wrong connotation of "threatened"...

 

[thedailylunatic]

SNIP

SNIP

Here's a link to the Kanin study. Kanin chose to study a particular mid-western town because the police force had an extremely stringent policy on the investigations of rapes.
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

"This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population = 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge. In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable - if not a minimal - reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge."

It's pretty wild when people say the study is uncritical or sloppy. If you read the article, the research is bloody chapter and verse. It's honestly some of the most serious research into rape that's ever been done.

A story from a cop friend of mine:
An 19-year-old woman claims that she has been raped by a stranger. When asked for details, she says that she met the man in a parking lot and he offered money in exchange for sex. She agreed. They went to her apartment and started having sex, continuing for a while, until she decided that she'd made a mistake. She asked him to stop and he did. He apologized for being a bother and paid her anyway, then left.

His response to me after this story is "I just wanted to ask her: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK RAPE *IS*? You consensually fucked him for money, asked him to stop before he even got off, then he did stop and PAID YOU ANYWAY! THE FUCK? This kind of bullshit is literally half the fucking rape complaints I get!"

That cop, by the way, is a rape survivor himself (both of date rape and child molestation) and works in one of the most progressive police forces in the country. I wish I were making this shit up.


Let me finish up with one of the gems from the Kanin study which should illustrate moral fiber of false rape complainants:
"A 37-year-old woman reported having been raped 'by some ******.' She gave
conflicting reports of the incident on two occasions and, when confronted with
these, she admitted that the entire story was a fabrication. She feared her boyfriend
had given her 'some sexual disease,' and she wanted to be sent to the hospital to
'get checked out.' She wanted a respectable reason, i.e., as an innocent victim of
rape, to explain the acquisition of her infection."

 

[thedailylunatic]

Just curious: what's the deal with your neighborhood? Is it the illegals or just failure of rule-of-law (for the record, I'm Hispanic; I'm just asking because I legit want to know)?

Why assume that is the case? The majority of rapists are otherwise fairly ordinary people, often respected by the rest of the community who will take their side. The Steubenville rapists come to mind, but only because the town has a memorable name. There's zillions of other examples. The idea that rapists have to be obviously unlike us is very popular, and results in all sorts of problems.

The first US state to criminalise marital rape did so in 1970, the last in 1993. Up until then, it wasn't considered a crime for a man to rape his wife. Thee attitudes haven't totally gone away.

But, at the same time, I'm a fundamentally science-driven person and the science just isn't behind the gender feminist practices of "changing men" to get them to "stop raping." Rape is kind of like murder; it's the kind of thing you stop/avoid rather than prevent through positive discourse.

Why?

There are plenty of people who wouldn't murder, regardless if someone was going to stop them or not, but the proportion varies across societies and over time. Likewise with rape.

Also, the fact that marital rape laws were introduced in the US means that US society's view on marital rape must have changed. It can change further.

1) As I mentioned above, it's not a race thing; it's a practicality thing. It's a lot easier to be a predator when you're undocumented because nobody's documenting you and nobody knows about your convictions for rape in Ecuador. The other thing is that... eh... if you look at rape stats they really don't support the contention that your archetypal rapist is the "average white guy." There are a lot of trends that go into it but it's probably more of a class/family-history thing than a race/gender thing. It feels weird to be defending "average middle class white guys" because I'm not one, but there it is.

2) Do you see any massive "anti-murder" campaigns lead by radical humanists with workshops in every college in the nation telling humans that their toxic humanity is causing them to murder so they should be less human? Not really? That's because the idea you can brainwash people into not committing crimes is completely bonkers. No sane person in the criminal justice field is advocating that because it's been totally debunked. Probably the best way to prevent rape in something remotely resembling this way is by promoting healthy parenting in early development. There was a landmark Scandinavian study on this whose name I totally forgot because I'm literally falling asleep as I type this.

Night night, Escapist Forum! I love you all even though we disagreeeandstffs

 

[Thaluikhain]

1) As I mentioned above, it's not a race thing; it's a practicality thing. It's a lot easier to be a predator when you're undocumented because nobody's documenting you and nobody knows about your convictions for rape in Ecuador. The other thing is that... eh... if you look at rape stats they really don't support the contention that your archetypal rapist is the "average white guy." There are a lot of trends that go into it but it's probably more of a class/family-history thing than a race/gender thing. It feels weird to be defending "average middle class white guys" because I'm not one, but there it is.

You don't have to consider yourself a predator to be a rapist, though. The overwhelmingly majority of rapes are committed by the victims family or acquaintances, ordinary people. Not necessarily the average white middle class male, but whatever is ordinary to the area. Sure, class plays a part, but the problem is widespread everywhere.

2) Do you see any massive "anti-murder" campaigns lead by radical humanists with workshops in every college in the nation telling humans that their toxic humanity is causing them to murder so they should be less human? Not really? That's because the idea you can brainwash people into not committing crimes is completely bonkers.

Well, that and it's a strawman. Society can change its attitudes about crime, and this will affect crime rates. That's not the same as brainwashing people. Again, within living memory, US society (at least nominally) decided that marital rape was a crime. That's no small change.

 

[lunavixen]

If we want to be literal, then all crimes are probably under reported, as it only takes a single instance of someone not reporting a crime for it be 'under reported', and I'd be surprised if 100% of any crime gets reported to authorities. What you haven't shown is that rape and sexual assault are often unreported. You asserting that they ARE under reported does not offer any insight into the degree of under reporting, which would have to be very large to justify the fuss being made about it.

So my questions stand. Who claims these crimes are 'often unreported'? How do they know? How do you prove how much of anything goes unreported?

Criminologists (and those studying or have studied Criminology, like me), Police officers, psychologists, rape trauma specialists, doctors etc. You know, the people who study patterns of crime, the effects of crime, types of crime, reporting rates etc. I can go to BoCSaR and my criminal statistics textbooks if you like and dig up some statistics for you but it'll take some time to do so and they'll be Australian statistics. I also never said rape is UNreported but UNDER reported, meaning that a large percentage of incidences are not reported within a reasonable time frame and the rapist (in genuine cases) is not found or charged.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

SNIP

SNIP

Here's a link to the Kanin study. Kanin chose to study a particular mid-western town because the police force had an extremely stringent policy on the investigations of rapes.
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

Thanks for the full report. I am still reading it. I guess I will have to change the wording from false study to reshaped study. And redirect my link to the one you brought me.

Like I said I am still reading it, but I like this part so far.

Widely divergent viewpoints are held regarding the incidence of false rape reporting (Katz and Mazur, 1979). For example, reports set the figure from lows of 0.25% (O'Reilly, 1984) and 1% (Krasner et aL, 1976) to highs of 80-90% (Bronson, 1918; Comment, 1968) and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.

 

[CrystalShadow]

[ and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.

100% Wow. That's an amazing thing to imply about a subject... Basically says rape doesn't exist except as something 'victims' make up to get at someone else...

Just... Wow.

That just... Well, clearly what happened to me wasn't real then. Even though I technically never reported it...

Ahem... Some people are weird...

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

[ and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.

100% Wow. That's an amazing thing to imply about a subject... Basically says rape doesn't exist except as something 'victims' make up to get at someone else...

Just... Wow.

That just... Well, clearly what happened to me wasn't real then. Even though I technically never reported it...

Ahem... Some people are weird...

In all honesty, I have not finished the whole report. The author may have changed his mind from 1985-1994. And I may have somehow managed to quote him out of context, when taking the whole study into account. I encourage you to read it as well. I will probably post what I think of the whole study in this thread, unless it gets too complex. It might deserve a new thread if more people are willing to read it, and it is relevant enough.

 

[Jenvas1306]

the turkish guys around here are often creeps, but luckily I was never assaulted, just got weird compliments and some 60-year old turkish guy really wanted to go out with me...
Well I am a transwoman wihout a history of sexual assault or abuse, but I am also pretty tall, so that might help.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If we want to be literal, then all crimes are probably under reported, as it only takes a single instance of someone not reporting a crime for it be 'under reported', and I'd be surprised if 100% of any crime gets reported to authorities. What you haven't shown is that rape and sexual assault are often unreported. You asserting that they ARE under reported does not offer any insight into the degree of under reporting, which would have to be very large to justify the fuss being made about it.

So my questions stand. Who claims these crimes are 'often unreported'? How do they know? How do you prove how much of anything goes unreported?

Criminologists (and those studying or have studied Criminology, like me), Police officers, psychologists, rape trauma specialists, doctors etc.

To add to what you said, that is true form them across any number of organisations across the western world. There is a consistent pattern.

 

[Lilani]

Join the police or become a detective, or even just carry a Glock in your purse.

Of course, I forgot, people who are the victims of crime are to blame for not being part of law enforcement. Obviously any rich businessperson who gets mugged in the street is to blame for being a businessperson instead of a police officer. People shouldn't choose careers based on what they enjoy most or what they're best at, after all. That's just stupid. And people who can't join law enforcement due to physical or health deficiencies? Fair game.

Not what I said. There are ways to fight rape and ways not to fight rape. There are ways to be empowered and ways not to be. One cop does the work of 1,000 internet whiners.

You're still implying that somebody who doesn't want to be raped should become a police officer. How is this not like saying anybody who wants a properly built house should be a contractor, or anybody who wants a working car should be a mechanic, or anybody who wants to be healthy should be a doctor? There is a point in life where you must rely upon vocations that aren't yours. To hold that against someone is just nonsensical in this day and age. Not to mention how close to victim blaming this line of thinking is. "Got raped? Too bad, if you were a police officer and had a gun you could have defended yourself..."

 

[Rabbitboy]

I have never been sexually assaulted myself so I voted no.

I do know one person who was sexually harassed. It was in the last year of elementary school when she was groped by three slightly older boys. A classmate knew where one of them lived and almost the entire class went to his house. I don't remember what they wanted but eventually the police showed up and asked them to leave. I wasn't part of this group since I didn't maintain much social contacts outside of school, and only found out about the whole thing the next monday.