Poll: Sexual Assault

Itdoesthatsometimes

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Xiado said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
Xiado said:
The 1/5 statistic is actually false and based on shoddy research methods. Real number is probably something from 1/10 to 1/7, not that it's necessarily much better but that's not even including a high prevalence of false reports.
There's no compelling evidence that there is a 'high prevalence of false reports' in sexual crimes, unless you use different criteria for shoddy research for that. It's a compelling myth that men like to believe women lie about it - guess it's more comforting.
http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php
Your source has issues with it's source cited. Most are nowhere to be found. I found three.

1 This article of someones opinion, in which he himself uses a reshaped study.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404230831/http://www.thedenverchannel.com/kobebryanttrial/2812198/detail.html
Reshaped study
http://web.archive.org/web/20050310094808/http://www.menweb.org/throop/falsereport/kanin.html
Original study
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

2 This article pointing out that African-American men are disproportional accused, and exonerated from crimes in general.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DNA_Exonerations_Nationwide.php

3 This study that points out men who were exonerated of their rape charges. I have not read them all, but the ones I have read a rape had occued, the wrong person got the blame.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

If you track down the other sources let me know. I don't plan on fact checking you anymore after today.
 

Chris Moses

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This poll confuses me... if you wanted to know how prevalent sexual assault is why not (also) ask how many people have been sexually assaulted?

I am a male and I voted yes, not because I have felt threatened so much as the fact that was date raped at a party. I felt that event was significant enough to vote yes despite the fact that I never felt threatened because of my gender even though my gender was under that threat at least at that instance.

I still don't feel threatened though I am more careful of what I do and what I drink at parties. Maybe I am taking the wrong connotation of "threatened"...
 

thedailylunatic

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Itdoesthatsometimes said:
Xiado said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
Xiado said:
SNIP
Here's a link to the Kanin study. Kanin chose to study a particular mid-western town because the police force had an extremely stringent policy on the investigations of rapes.
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

"This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population = 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge. In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable - if not a minimal - reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge."

It's pretty wild when people say the study is uncritical or sloppy. If you read the article, the research is bloody chapter and verse. It's honestly some of the most serious research into rape that's ever been done.

A story from a cop friend of mine:
An 19-year-old woman claims that she has been raped by a stranger. When asked for details, she says that she met the man in a parking lot and he offered money in exchange for sex. She agreed. They went to her apartment and started having sex, continuing for a while, until she decided that she'd made a mistake. She asked him to stop and he did. He apologized for being a bother and paid her anyway, then left.

His response to me after this story is "I just wanted to ask her: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK RAPE *IS*? You consensually fucked him for money, asked him to stop before he even got off, then he did stop and PAID YOU ANYWAY! THE FUCK? This kind of bullshit is literally half the fucking rape complaints I get!"

That cop, by the way, is a rape survivor himself (both of date rape and child molestation) and works in one of the most progressive police forces in the country. I wish I were making this shit up.


Let me finish up with one of the gems from the Kanin study which should illustrate moral fiber of false rape complainants:
"A 37-year-old woman reported having been raped 'by some ******.' She gave
conflicting reports of the incident on two occasions and, when confronted with
these, she admitted that the entire story was a fabrication. She feared her boyfriend
had given her 'some sexual disease,' and she wanted to be sent to the hospital to
'get checked out.' She wanted a respectable reason, i.e., as an innocent victim of
rape, to explain the acquisition of her infection."
 

thedailylunatic

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thaluikhain said:
thedailylunatic said:
Just curious: what's the deal with your neighborhood? Is it the illegals or just failure of rule-of-law (for the record, I'm Hispanic; I'm just asking because I legit want to know)?
Why assume that is the case? The majority of rapists are otherwise fairly ordinary people, often respected by the rest of the community who will take their side. The Steubenville rapists come to mind, but only because the town has a memorable name. There's zillions of other examples. The idea that rapists have to be obviously unlike us is very popular, and results in all sorts of problems.

The first US state to criminalise marital rape did so in 1970, the last in 1993. Up until then, it wasn't considered a crime for a man to rape his wife. Thee attitudes haven't totally gone away.

thedailylunatic said:
But, at the same time, I'm a fundamentally science-driven person and the science just isn't behind the gender feminist practices of "changing men" to get them to "stop raping." Rape is kind of like murder; it's the kind of thing you stop/avoid rather than prevent through positive discourse.
Why?

There are plenty of people who wouldn't murder, regardless if someone was going to stop them or not, but the proportion varies across societies and over time. Likewise with rape.

Also, the fact that marital rape laws were introduced in the US means that US society's view on marital rape must have changed. It can change further.
1) As I mentioned above, it's not a race thing; it's a practicality thing. It's a lot easier to be a predator when you're undocumented because nobody's documenting you and nobody knows about your convictions for rape in Ecuador. The other thing is that... eh... if you look at rape stats they really don't support the contention that your archetypal rapist is the "average white guy." There are a lot of trends that go into it but it's probably more of a class/family-history thing than a race/gender thing. It feels weird to be defending "average middle class white guys" because I'm not one, but there it is.

2) Do you see any massive "anti-murder" campaigns lead by radical humanists with workshops in every college in the nation telling humans that their toxic humanity is causing them to murder so they should be less human? Not really? That's because the idea you can brainwash people into not committing crimes is completely bonkers. No sane person in the criminal justice field is advocating that because it's been totally debunked. Probably the best way to prevent rape in something remotely resembling this way is by promoting healthy parenting in early development. There was a landmark Scandinavian study on this whose name I totally forgot because I'm literally falling asleep as I type this.

Night night, Escapist Forum! I love you all even though we disagreeeandstffs
 

Thaluikhain

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thedailylunatic said:
1) As I mentioned above, it's not a race thing; it's a practicality thing. It's a lot easier to be a predator when you're undocumented because nobody's documenting you and nobody knows about your convictions for rape in Ecuador. The other thing is that... eh... if you look at rape stats they really don't support the contention that your archetypal rapist is the "average white guy." There are a lot of trends that go into it but it's probably more of a class/family-history thing than a race/gender thing. It feels weird to be defending "average middle class white guys" because I'm not one, but there it is.
You don't have to consider yourself a predator to be a rapist, though. The overwhelmingly majority of rapes are committed by the victims family or acquaintances, ordinary people. Not necessarily the average white middle class male, but whatever is ordinary to the area. Sure, class plays a part, but the problem is widespread everywhere.

thedailylunatic said:
2) Do you see any massive "anti-murder" campaigns lead by radical humanists with workshops in every college in the nation telling humans that their toxic humanity is causing them to murder so they should be less human? Not really? That's because the idea you can brainwash people into not committing crimes is completely bonkers.
Well, that and it's a strawman. Society can change its attitudes about crime, and this will affect crime rates. That's not the same as brainwashing people. Again, within living memory, US society (at least nominally) decided that marital rape was a crime. That's no small change.
 

lunavixen

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Megalodon said:
If we want to be literal, then all crimes are probably under reported, as it only takes a single instance of someone not reporting a crime for it be 'under reported', and I'd be surprised if 100% of any crime gets reported to authorities. What you haven't shown is that rape and sexual assault are often unreported. You asserting that they ARE under reported does not offer any insight into the degree of under reporting, which would have to be very large to justify the fuss being made about it.

So my questions stand. Who claims these crimes are 'often unreported'? How do they know? How do you prove how much of anything goes unreported?
Criminologists (and those studying or have studied Criminology, like me), Police officers, psychologists, rape trauma specialists, doctors etc. You know, the people who study patterns of crime, the effects of crime, types of crime, reporting rates etc. I can go to BoCSaR and my criminal statistics textbooks if you like and dig up some statistics for you but it'll take some time to do so and they'll be Australian statistics. I also never said rape is UNreported but UNDER reported, meaning that a large percentage of incidences are not reported within a reasonable time frame and the rapist (in genuine cases) is not found or charged.
 

Itdoesthatsometimes

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thedailylunatic said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
Xiado said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
Xiado said:
SNIP
Here's a link to the Kanin study. Kanin chose to study a particular mid-western town because the police force had an extremely stringent policy on the investigations of rapes.
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
Thanks for the full report. I am still reading it. I guess I will have to change the wording from false study to reshaped study. And redirect my link to the one you brought me.

Like I said I am still reading it, but I like this part so far.

Widely divergent viewpoints are held regarding the incidence of false rape reporting (Katz and Mazur, 1979). For example, reports set the figure from lows of 0.25% (O'Reilly, 1984) and 1% (Krasner et aL, 1976) to highs of 80-90% (Bronson, 1918; Comment, 1968) and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.
 

CrystalShadow

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Apr 11, 2009
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Itdoesthatsometimes said:
[ and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.

100% Wow. That's an amazing thing to imply about a subject... Basically says rape doesn't exist except as something 'victims' make up to get at someone else...

Just... Wow.

That just... Well, clearly what happened to me wasn't real then. Even though I technically never reported it...

Ahem... Some people are weird...
 

Itdoesthatsometimes

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CrystalShadow said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
[ and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.

100% Wow. That's an amazing thing to imply about a subject... Basically says rape doesn't exist except as something 'victims' make up to get at someone else...

Just... Wow.

That just... Well, clearly what happened to me wasn't real then. Even though I technically never reported it...

Ahem... Some people are weird...
In all honesty, I have not finished the whole report. The author may have changed his mind from 1985-1994. And I may have somehow managed to quote him out of context, when taking the whole study into account. I encourage you to read it as well. I will probably post what I think of the whole study in this thread, unless it gets too complex. It might deserve a new thread if more people are willing to read it, and it is relevant enough.
 

Jenvas1306

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the turkish guys around here are often creeps, but luckily I was never assaulted, just got weird compliments and some 60-year old turkish guy really wanted to go out with me...
Well I am a transwoman wihout a history of sexual assault or abuse, but I am also pretty tall, so that might help.
 

Thaluikhain

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lunavixen said:
Megalodon said:
If we want to be literal, then all crimes are probably under reported, as it only takes a single instance of someone not reporting a crime for it be 'under reported', and I'd be surprised if 100% of any crime gets reported to authorities. What you haven't shown is that rape and sexual assault are often unreported. You asserting that they ARE under reported does not offer any insight into the degree of under reporting, which would have to be very large to justify the fuss being made about it.

So my questions stand. Who claims these crimes are 'often unreported'? How do they know? How do you prove how much of anything goes unreported?
Criminologists (and those studying or have studied Criminology, like me), Police officers, psychologists, rape trauma specialists, doctors etc.
To add to what you said, that is true form them across any number of organisations across the western world. There is a consistent pattern.
 

Lilani

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May 27, 2009
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Xiado said:
Lilani said:
Xiado said:
Join the police or become a detective, or even just carry a Glock in your purse.
Of course, I forgot, people who are the victims of crime are to blame for not being part of law enforcement. Obviously any rich businessperson who gets mugged in the street is to blame for being a businessperson instead of a police officer. People shouldn't choose careers based on what they enjoy most or what they're best at, after all. That's just stupid. And people who can't join law enforcement due to physical or health deficiencies? Fair game.
Not what I said. There are ways to fight rape and ways not to fight rape. There are ways to be empowered and ways not to be. One cop does the work of 1,000 internet whiners.
You're still implying that somebody who doesn't want to be raped should become a police officer. How is this not like saying anybody who wants a properly built house should be a contractor, or anybody who wants a working car should be a mechanic, or anybody who wants to be healthy should be a doctor? There is a point in life where you must rely upon vocations that aren't yours. To hold that against someone is just nonsensical in this day and age. Not to mention how close to victim blaming this line of thinking is. "Got raped? Too bad, if you were a police officer and had a gun you could have defended yourself..."
 

Rabbitboy

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I have never been sexually assaulted myself so I voted no.

I do know one person who was sexually harassed. It was in the last year of elementary school when she was groped by three slightly older boys. A classmate knew where one of them lived and almost the entire class went to his house. I don't remember what they wanted but eventually the police showed up and asked them to leave. I wasn't part of this group since I didn't maintain much social contacts outside of school, and only found out about the whole thing the next monday.
 

Dizchu

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None of the options apply to me. However, I am able to chime in. (I'm not a big fan of trigger warnings but I will mention transphobia so be prepared)

As a trans-person that is only in "trans" mode part-time (meaning I don't live full-time as a woman), I have to say that there is a world of difference between going outside as a male and going outside as essentially a cross-dresser.

I used to get teased and harassed for having long hair ("Oi mate cut yer hair ye gaylord") though not as much now (probably because I'm 22 now and kids don't pick on adults as much, also I have a constant scowl when I'm outside that suggests that I will dropkick them into the pavement hahah).

But going outside with makeup on and a girly top... that's risk right there. I live in Wales and I would only ever go out in public in "girl mode" when I'm in the capital city, Cardiff. Anywhere else is a no-no. I am extremely scared of being harassed or even attacked. In Cardiff people are more accepting and I've even had compliments (which is great!) But in most places if I got "found out" the reaction wouldn't be as positive.

I hope that was a worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
 

CrystalShadow

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Itdoesthatsometimes said:
CrystalShadow said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
[ and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.

100% Wow. That's an amazing thing to imply about a subject... Basically says rape doesn't exist except as something 'victims' make up to get at someone else...

Just... Wow.

That just... Well, clearly what happened to me wasn't real then. Even though I technically never reported it...

Ahem... Some people are weird...
In all honesty, I have not finished the whole report. The author may have changed his mind from 1985-1994. And I may have somehow managed to quote him out of context, when taking the whole study into account. I encourage you to read it as well. I will probably post what I think of the whole study in this thread, unless it gets too complex. It might deserve a new thread if more people are willing to read it, and it is relevant enough.
Yeah, I know I probably picked on a minor detail with no context... I don't really know beyond that.
 

thedailylunatic

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Itdoesthatsometimes said:
thedailylunatic said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
Xiado said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
Xiado said:
SNIP
Here's a link to the Kanin study. Kanin chose to study a particular mid-western town because the police force had an extremely stringent policy on the investigations of rapes.
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
Thanks for the full report. I am still reading it. I guess I will have to change the wording from false study to reshaped study. And redirect my link to the one you brought me.

Like I said I am still reading it, but I like this part so far.

Widely divergent viewpoints are held regarding the incidence of false rape reporting (Katz and Mazur, 1979). For example, reports set the figure from lows of 0.25% (O'Reilly, 1984) and 1% (Krasner et aL, 1976) to highs of 80-90% (Bronson, 1918; Comment, 1968) and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.
He's referring to an earlier survey he did of different rape statistics from different police stations, where some literally reported no true rapes and some reported literally no false rapes. In that study, he makes clear he believes those statistics are both bull****, which is why he did this one =P
 

Fox12

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DizzyChuggernaut said:
None of the options apply to me. However, I am able to chime in. (I'm not a big fan of trigger warnings but I will mention transphobia so be prepared)

As a trans-person that is only in "trans" mode part-time (meaning I don't live full-time as a woman), I have to say that there is a world of difference between going outside as a male and going outside as essentially a cross-dresser.

I used to get teased and harassed for having long hair ("Oi mate cut yer hair ye gaylord") though not as much now (probably because I'm 22 now and kids don't pick on adults as much, also I have a constant scowl when I'm outside that suggests that I will dropkick them into the pavement hahah).

But going outside with makeup on and a girly top... that's risk right there. I live in Wales and I would only ever go out in public in "girl mode" when I'm in the capital city, Cardiff. Anywhere else is a no-no. I am extremely scared of being harassed or even attacked. In Cardiff people are more accepting and I've even had compliments (which is great!) But in most places if I got "found out" the reaction wouldn't be as positive.

I hope that was a worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
I should have mentioned transgender as well, though I admit, it didn't occur to me at the time. I'll see if I can add it to the poll (though I admit it's a little late).

If you don't mind, I'm curious, do you find that men and women react differently toward your life choices? And would you find certain groups of people more accepting?
 

Weaver

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I've never felt threatened. That said, it's not like I haven't had both women and men do what society would deem "inappropriate" things to me without consent (groping, unwanted grinding, touching, attempted make outs, etc) I just don't actually give a shit. These things don't make me feel threatened or bad about myself, and I don't feel my gender had anything to do with it.
 

Itdoesthatsometimes

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thedailylunatic said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
thedailylunatic said:
Itdoesthatsometimes said:
Xiado said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
Xiado said:
SNIP
Here's a link to the Kanin study. Kanin chose to study a particular mid-western town because the police force had an extremely stringent policy on the investigations of rapes.
http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
Thanks for the full report. I am still reading it. I guess I will have to change the wording from false study to reshaped study. And redirect my link to the one you brought me.

Like I said I am still reading it, but I like this part so far.

Widely divergent viewpoints are held regarding the incidence of false rape reporting (Katz and Mazur, 1979). For example, reports set the figure from lows of 0.25% (O'Reilly, 1984) and 1% (Krasner et aL, 1976) to highs of 80-90% (Bronson, 1918; Comment, 1968) and even 100% (see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate biases are at work.

Underling done by me.

It is funny when you realize which Kanin he is referring to, hint it's himself.

No wonder that was left out of the reshaped study. But I'll keep reading it.
He's referring to an earlier survey he did of different rape statistics from different police stations, where some literally reported no true rapes and some reported literally no false rapes. In that study, he makes clear he believes those statistics are both bull****, which is why he did this one =P
You would not happen to have a link to that survey would you?

I agree in full context of the study (alternatively the survey) he is referring to some police agencies finding no reported rapes false and others finding no reported rapes true.

I managed to quote him out of context much in the same way Craig Silverman did when he said:

"Any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes that there is. A command officer in the Denver Police sex assaults unit recently told me he placed the false rape numbers at approximately 45 percent.

Objective studies have confirmed this. See Purdue Professor Kanin's nine-year study published in 1994 concluding that over 40 percent of rape allegations were demonstrably false."

Which lead me to that study. The study is not meant to be extrapolated to other populations.

Anyhow, this stuff is derailing the thread. False rape allegations is a topic all it's own. If someone starts one I'll see you over there.
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
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Fox12 said:
I should have mentioned transgender as well, though I admit, it didn't occur to me at the time. I'll see if I can add it to the poll (though I admit it's a little late).
Hey don't worry about it, you have enough input from users as it is. I think the issues transgender people face are distinct from the usual sexist harassment that most people can relate to (catcalling, whistling, homophobic insults directed at men whether they're gay or straight).

If you don't mind, I'm curious, do you find that men and women react differently toward your life choices? And would you find certain groups of people more accepting?
I find that the people I went to university with were very accepting. In general I think most people are either accepting or ambivalent. It's the one or two assholes that are confrontational that can absolutely ruin someone's day, no matter how nice the other 99% of people they encountered that day were.