Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

[GeorgW]

This is a TES game, people want it to be like a TES game. There are better ways. I prefer the Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning version of classes, it doesn't have any confusion and doesn't streamline anything.

 

[Something Amyss]

While this sounds like a bunch of buzzwords for the same result (dumbing down), I really loathe the whole problem that you either have to get deep into a game or resort to an FAQ to "get it right."

Steps taken to alleviate this are definitely a positive, though I don't really care much about TES games themselves.

 

[DracoSuave]

This sounds good to me, starting a new character in Oblivion is incredibly annoying, you shouldn't have to make a chart to figure out if your character will level effectively.

If I use my sword, I should get better at sword fighting. I shouldn't have to work on my blunt weapon and hand to hand skills as well if I don't want to, it just adds tedium.

That's IMO entirely a product of Oblivion's leveling system. This stuff isn't remotely a problem in Morrowind. But apparently nobody told the Skyrim devs that because their solution is to derpline vs. fix (i.e., remove) the loot/monster leveling system.

On the other hand... the best way to level skills in TES is spam rather than play. Fixing that'd be a positive step as well.

 

[onewheeled]

Why is it that any time the words "Skyrim" or "Bethesda", and "streamline" are said in an article or thread or post or anything, the following conversation always makes me hate the gaming community a little bit more?

Honestly, I'm totally happy with these changes they're making. I've never played an Elder Scrolls game (Hell, the only somewhat similar game I've played was Fallout 3), so I don't care at all if the game is "dumbed down" to make it more intuitive for new audiences, I just want the game to be fun. I guess I'm in the tiny, tiny minority that thinks an RPG doesn't need to be stupidly, unrelentingly deep to be a good game.

 

[captaincabbage]

Don't worry it's not going to be that bad. In the end they'll all just be trivial things that are easy to forget.

And besides, if it's too jarring for you, just download a mod that puts them back in! ^^

 

[JochemDude]

I don't think it'll make it a bad game, I really have the feeling that they're not trying to dumb it down, but merely make everything smoother. Wether that'll decrease the options. I guess we'll see that when it comes out.

 

[Quazimofo]

I always like having more choices. But they're absolutely right about Oblivion forcing you to choose your skills before you have any idea what real impact they'll have. I think I created 3 characters before I had one with a mix I was happy with.

yeah, i made 2 soo far. like the second one better, but still not quite so happy with how he turned out. (only recently got the game on a steam deal. was absorbed by kingdom hearts and a lack of any knowledge of the elder scrolls when it came out)

i really do like lots of choices, but if its for a better overall experience, ill give bethesda the benefit of the doubt and see how it turns out when the game launches. still looks to be a fantastic game, if i cant make a few choices, it cant matter THAT much. many games get by fine like this

for example: kingdom hearts had NO gear customization besides the weapon, but there was plenty of stuff to play with in the inventory and the combat was fun. still one of my favorite games to this day. (or did i completely miss something, been a while since i played any of them, and i have only played 1 and 2, not the half dozen handheld games. never liked the feel of handhelds)

 

[Frotality]

people really fail to understand the purpose of the advanced character creation found in most RPGs; your not supposed to have a good idea of what each skill does going in; your supposed to ROLE PLAY by picking skills that suit whatever character you have in mind; if you dont have any idea what kind of character you want to play in an RPG going in...your doing it wrong. its not about the most used or "best" skills, its about the kind of things you want your character to do; thats why nobody likes meta-gaming min-maxing assholes....unless they're trying to play a perfectionist character i guess.

RPGs are about living out a fantasy, not having fantasy made and lived for you. creating your own character from your own mind is quite an integral part of that, and it pains me that so many go into RPGs with the wrong mindset.

with that said, i do not think Skyrim is at all abandoning that idea, just taking a different approach; i dont like it, but i at least understand it. in this particular series it makes sense, there are alot of skills and it can be quite daunting for a newbie that doesnt already have an idea of typical RPG mechanics to grasp the use of all of them right away. these games have always been REALLY free form, so the leveling system going that route makes sense.

seriously though; RPGs require planning your character in advance. i dont care how or what that entails; every RPG demands that you have something in mind for your character before you start, even if its just hair color. creating a character that you've premeditated is kind of the entire point of role-playing, is it not?

for me, who already has a good idea of what he wants and prefers to work within the confines of my choices and not always have an easy way out just using an exploitable skill...im sure there will be a mod for that.

the real thing to look out for is whether or not leveling attributes will still depend on what skills you improved to get to that level; it wouldnt really make sense to restrict how much health/stamina/magicka you get per level based on the associated skillups anymore.

EDIT: oh, and in older RPGs your first character wasnt a character, it was a lesson in inevitable, crushing defeat. so in that regard bethesda can bite me for fostering the exact opposite mindset. the only way a newb can make the character he wants is by first finding out what he doesnt want, so theyre kind of contradicting themselves by wanting us to make the perfect character the first time. people who know what they want are gonna make what they want. people who dont know can only know by seeing the skills in action, that is true, but if you just let them try everything at once all the time, theyre never gonna know what they want and just flit between everything never finding a character that suits them. restrictions are necessary sometimes.

 

[blankedboy]

Well this makes you wonder how much of the people who'll ultimately play Skyrim have actually played an older TES game before. If it's more than half, then what's the point of this? The older players will already know how it all goes in this regard.

 

[Laxman9292]

If all else fails someone will make a mod along the way that will do what the developers don't.

How much you want to bet there is going to be no mod tools? Remember companies who were supported by mods are now turning their backs.

Everything I'm worth. Bethesda, and TES in particular, have been known for their incredible mods and at this point is a historical aspect of the series.

 

[HooterNanny]

This announcement is spot on. I recently picked up Oblivion (Yes I know I'm veeeeery late), and, while after a few playthroughs, it may be easy to understand, I currently have no idea how half of this games functions work. Also, there's so much choice at the start.

I know lots of choice is good for replay value, but how about unlocking them after a playthrough, like, you have warrior, then if you play through you unlock berserker, and knight (i don't know all of themm this is just an example). Its really overwheming for a new player

 

[Zydrate]

You can't fault them for wanting money,

No, but there's a difference between doing it for the money and doing it for the art.

 

[Zydrate]

I love RPG's. Oblivion, KOTOR, and Mass Effect 1 are some of my favorite games ever.

I feel tense every time an RPG company says they are "streamlining" "simplifing" or "making it accessable to new players".

To me, an RPG is a game which allows mass exploration, has hundreds of details and variations of equipment, has a multitude of side quests in addition to it's main quest, and contains a leveling system complete with skills and powers. The more intricate the RPG, the better it is.

The problem is, games like Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 2, and others have cut back on the details.
In Dragon Age 1 there was your armor, and your three companions armor. In Dragon Age 2, your companions have armor but they have a very limited, single use upgrade. A total loss of 75% of the available equipment selection ( higher if you count the concept that the armor was composed of mutiple pieces and add members not currently being used)

In Mass Effect 1 the guns had equipment pieces, ammo types, and differences between mutiple gun types, and the armor was also varied between types. In Mass Effect 2 armor is virtually nonexistant, and the guns have gone down to 6 or 7 types that have no detailed variation or ammo types.

Both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 are inferior to the orginals, in fairness the games had other problems besides what I have mentioned here, but in the end it was the eliminating of a substantial part of the RPG experience that made the games a fail.

Thus far, Bathesda hasn't completely butchered their RPG lines like Bioware did, but with statements like the OP, I am becoming increasingly more concerned that Skyrim will not be the great successor to Oblivion that I was hoping it would be.

I agree with all of this and despite my displeasure with it, since I've played most of these series -as- they began, I still enjoy playing the games and seeing them evolve.
For example, I feel Fable 3 is inferior to Fable 2, especially in customization. But I didn't really enjoy it any less than usual. (Granted, they're on my shelf and I'd go back to Fable 2 before Fable 3, so that counts for something).

Despite all my anger towards "Streamlining"... I'm still probably going to play the -shit- out of Skyrim.
300 hours on Oblivion [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/3672-009-Skyrim-CivWorld-and-Tali], Susan? That's not -shit-. I have 200 hours on a single character alone.

 

[Zarkov]

So instead of making a tutorial for more than introducing the basic mechanics and giving us a big name actor to start the story (before promptly killing him), they're just gonna cut features instead.

Yeah, nothing can go wrong with that idea.

The object of any game is to make the tutorial that was never there. A tutorial should seamlessly flow with the natural direction of the game, slowly teaching the player as the game progresses.

The TES series had a hard time coping with this facet of games. I've played them all.

Complexity doesn't mean good. However, depth, the more accurate word people like, does mean good. A game with depth [TES games are famous for their depth] can be a truly great game. Just because you can't pick your skills in the beginning, or there are less skills doesn't mean the game lacks depth.

Oh, and skill selection isn't a feature, it's a setting. Similar to the settings on how bright your screen is, or how high your graphics are, the only exception being that this setting changes gameplay not graphical assets.

Meh. Skyrim still seems like Oblivion 2.0
That may not be a bad thing for some of you but for me, a person who grew on Daggerfall, is most atrocious insult you can do to a series. I am still waiting for the day when someone does a RPG on the scale of Daggerfall. Upgraded graphics be damned, if they even get the gameplay right(improve upon it) then I would play the game even if it had the graphics of Wolfenstien.

The last thing we need is more stupid confusion. That game may have been deep and great [I've played it] but in going forward a logical goal is to bring the series to everyone. Tradition is not advancement; it is stagnation. And the ability to choose your skills and pretty much completely create your character right from the beginning is definitely tradition.

I think they're just pushing the "your character improves through what he does and chooses" mentality. And I loved that about the TES games, especially in Morrowind. And the best way to figure out what you like to use is by actually USING those things.

I'm only defending Skyrim on the basis that it's not going to be as bad as some people think, not because I'm a "fanboy" or whatever else.