Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

[Zarkov]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

No, the "you" refers to the gamer. More money for Bethesda doesn't help YOU. Bigger games streamlined for non ES fans, not YOU. If you happen to like the streamlined changes, that's fantastic but don't expect everyone to feel the same.

Honestly, all the people who think no one should criticize the changes makes me question the maturity of some of the fans. I guess we should all just shower praise on Bethesda or keep our mouths shut? If the game fails because no one spoke up about the bad things during development, then there will be mo more ES games.

You've fallen into the slippery slope fallacy without reason to do so. From what they have told us, a total of four useless skills have been removed and the character creation portion of the game is done through GAMEPLAY instead of menus.

Now, these two facets of the game are so tiny to the whole game that I wonder how anyone could COMPLAIN about them. When the game comes out, and there's something REALLY bad about it, then go complaining. Chances are, I'll join you. But from what we know RIGHT NOW, without speculation, the game will be changed in very small ways. If you consider character creation a big portion of the game, then you've kinda missed the point.

You assume that I hold an opinion that I never gave to prop up your own; again, another fallacy. I never said fans should never criticize, I said fans should criticize when there's reason to. Wait until the game comes out, then start whining god dammit.

EDIT: Or, I should say I implied those opinion, not necessarily gave in your defense.

 

[hardband]

Honestly I think that this will be better for the game, because I hate it when I chose a class I can't get along with or screw up stat placement in the early game, only for it to bite me in the ass later!

 

[Epona]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

No, the "you" refers to the gamer. More money for Bethesda doesn't help YOU. Bigger games streamlined for non ES fans, not YOU. If you happen to like the streamlined changes, that's fantastic but don't expect everyone to feel the same.

Honestly, all the people who think no one should criticize the changes makes me question the maturity of some of the fans. I guess we should all just shower praise on Bethesda or keep our mouths shut? If the game fails because no one spoke up about the bad things during development, then there will be mo more ES games.

You've fallen into the slippery slope fallacy without reason to do so. From what they have told us, a total of four useless skills have been removed and the character creation portion of the game is done through GAMEPLAY instead of menus.

Now, these two facets of the game are so tiny to the whole game that I wonder how anyone could COMPLAIN about them. When the game comes out, and there's something REALLY bad about it, then go complaining. Chances are, I'll join you. But from what we know RIGHT NOW, without speculation, the game will be changed in very small ways. If you consider character creation a big portion of the game, then you've kinda missed the point.

You assume that I hold an opinion that I never gave to prop up your own; again, another fallacy. I never said fans should never criticize, I said fans should criticize when there's reason to. Wait until the game comes out, then start whining god dammit.

EDIT: Or, I should say I implied those opinion, not necessarily gave in your defense.

It isn't a slippery slope fallacy when they remove more stuff every game. There is every reason to think they will continue doing so after Skyrim.

That you like what was removed isn't the point, the point is that it has been done with every game and will continue to be done...so no fallacy.

 

[Nobby]

This game has gone from a must buy to a meh for me. Sure I get that Bethesda has its reasons for cutting back complexity and removing small features for basically no reason but all that I've heard and seen around Skyrim form videos and articles etc has really turned me off this game. Its gone from a must have to a "ooh its 50 cents on steam".

 

[sergnb]

I myself, am a pretty straight forward guy when it comes to RPG's. I always play the same kind of characters. Brutes, all strenght melee berserkers that rip everyone's head off and make the most possible carnage when engaged in combat OR the stealthy guy that assasinates his enemies one by one from the shadows a la Batman.

On the other hand, I HATE when RPG's make me take decisions before I know wtf am I doing. MMORPG's are a perfect example of this. Example: WoW. Following my blood thirst I pick the Warrior class. Only to find out 70 levels later that it's the most underpowered class of all and isn't worth shit in an actual serious pvp scenario.

I like to be able to change my class freely, make hybrids, and go nuts with the combinations. Demon's Souls has, in my opinion, the perfect system for this. You DO pick a class at the beginning, that sort of guides the build of your character, but you are in NO way limited in the decisions of spells, gear and weapons you can wear. You could start as a warrior and end up as a mage (not recommended tho)

So, in my opinion, what they did here is really nice for all kind of players, being them new or not. You never know what crazy skill this class has that you only learn about halfway through the game and you aren't able to choose because you are stuck being a mage.

 

[PlasticLion]

Streamlining = No chance for failure = I'm bored because this lacks jeopardy

 

[Necrofudge]

I was already angry when they got rid of spears (I loved me the Spear of Bitter Mercy) and clumped axes and blunt weapons under the same skill. But taking away hand-to-hand!? GAHHHHHHHHHHH that doesn't make things simpler!

They already got rid of major and minor skills, whats the point of making us not able to kill with our fists?

 

[Jean-Francois Charbonneau]

They already got rid of major and minor skills, whats the point of making us not able to kill with our fists?

Where did anyone say you couldn't kill someone with your fists? Fallout didn't have a "walkling" stat and yet they allowed me to move freely through their world. Not having a singular hand to hand stat doesn't bother me. Could be strength with or without agility mixed in that decided your hand to hand damage.

Then again, you are going to fight against Dragons... One on One, even with a sword and shield, it looks like suicide. Let alone barehanded.

As for me, I'll take 18 well built skills that matter in the world over 100 skills with only a few interesting or well implemented.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yet people will still complain if the manual takes them less then 20 hours to read and is used by bodybuilders as a dumbbell. Honestly I don't know how people can del with these crazy complex systems where you need to basic calculus just to figure out what your next move should be or how you should build your character. I want to be able to go "I want to shoot fireballs" go to the fireball skill and put a point in it I don't want to have to look through multiple magic skills and then figure which ones add to fireball and which ones stack and how a base score is affect by multiples and which ones are most effective and how I mix this and that and esssh. I know some people like to get lost in the see of numbers but I think making it so the numbers are not so overwhelming is an admirable goal. For the rest of you, why don't you go grind disgaea.

 

[Contradiction]

This is could bad... Seriously they had their niche for a reason. If I wanted to play 'streamlined' games then I would go play dragon age 2 but I won't because its terrible (case and point). Is it too much to ask that just one RPG stay true to the older ways of doing things. Second note that someone mentioned that the average console player wouldn't know about a lot of RPG stuff... Well that's great maybe they either learn or don't play.
That said I love Bethesda and have nothing but praise for their works. So I have faith in them but I will very disappointed if this game goes the way of so many others and panders to a bunch of people not willing to learn and in doing so sullies there own games and wastes my money.
And with all their recent acquisition its not like they can't release other games for that 'streamlined' audience.

 

[similar.squirrel]

Excellent. I fell victim to that whole character-scrapping business with both Oblivion and Fallout 3.
I guess this may piss the purists off, but I'd prefer to be..I don't know.. talking to women or something instead of learning which kind of elf I would like to pretend to be by trial and error.

 

[Zarkov]

Again, you misunderstood what my point was. I was stating several pieces of logic to support a standing opinion; you took the support as the opinion. Also, counter-intuitive means my argument works against me; but my argument was simply that games improve not by specifically ADDING features, but improving as a whole. Therefore counter-intuitive proves to be an irrelevant word in this sense.

To answer your previous question as you did yourself, that is a possible outcome.

But from what I can tell, the features the are removing are simply too small for anyone besides the nit-picky to care about. Now, the features they are adding make the features they are removing so small that I'll probably forget about them as soon as I start playing it.

Now, when the game is released and there truly is something to whine about, then we should. But as far as anyone can tell there's no reason to complain. They're simply adding and changing the game to a degree that I'm not sure HOW you'd take it as a bad thing.

I don't think it's hard to understand how I would see this as a bad thing. Morrowind had 27 skills. Oblivion had 21. Skyrim has 18. When every character will be able to specialize in approximately 1/3rd of the games total available skills? Character diversity and re-playability, out the window.

Also, given the fact that skills aren't the only thing they're simplifying, there's this:

Streamlining = No chance for failure = I'm bored because this lacks jeopardy

God help us if Skyrim is as easy as Fallout 3. Hell, even Oblivion was ridiculously easy, if not quite as bad as FO3. If there's no challenge there, then it's not really a game, is it? It's an interactive movie.

This may be a difference in opinion, but I value quality over quantity in this sense. In Morrowind, yes there were 27 total skills but at least a fourth of them would turn out to be near useless, and the only thing "skills" accounted for was the accuracy and efficiency of the weapon you use [of course, for weapons in this case. But with other items, it only determined how well you did a certain thing]. In oblivion, the more meaningless skills [for the most part] were dropped or combined. But this time around, skills not only advanced with efficiency but they also [sometimes] gave special abilities to go along with them. Now, in Skyrim, they have been simplified yet again but now skills give you special abilities that you unlock with the usage of that skill. And this would be for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. And beyond that, as far as weapons are concerned, you specialize in a certain weapon by using its specific ability tree.

To me, depth over numbers is the way to go, but I know how you like your numbers so much.

Besides, how can depth and meaning beyond simple numbers be bad? Now skills unlock abilities for how you use them. And I never understood why so many skills in Morrowind were needed anyway. A lot of them were redundant, especially weapon skills, because you there's a huge difference between shiny pointy object A, and shiny pointy object B.

 

[Zarkov]

This is could bad... Seriously they had their niche for a reason. If I wanted to play 'streamlined' games then I would go play dragon age 2 but I won't because its terrible (case and point). Is it too much to ask that just one RPG stay true to the older ways of doing things. Second note that someone mentioned that the average console player wouldn't know about a lot of RPG stuff... Well that's great maybe they either learn or don't play.
That said I love Bethesda and have nothing but praise for their works. So I have faith in them but I will very disappointed if this game goes the way of so many others and panders to a bunch of people not willing to learn and in doing so sullies there own games and wastes my money.
And with all their recent acquisition its not like they can't release other games for that 'streamlined' audience.

I need to know... why are the old ways better? I mean, I loved Morrowind and whatnot, but why is simplified depth a problem? Skills in Skyrim [as far as I can tell] are going to have meaning beyond the numbers. They're going to unlock abilities in multiple ability trees under one skill. I'd much prefer that over the older ways where numbers only stood for what you could do and how well you did it; if I wanted that, I'd go play me some Dark Heresy or Dungeon and Dragons.

Is it nostalgia? Do the virtual flowers smell better back then?

And - correct me if I'm wrong - but all games strive, no matter the genre, to be accessible to anyone who plays it. Accessibility ties greatly into immersion - and in a games such as TES -immersion is key to a wonderful game. To get lost in such a world can be the most amazing thing to happen to you. I don't blame the developers for wanting to take out the menus, take out "settings" and such and make sure the game is played instead of planned.

I make games myself, and the ones that can be played easily - no matter how stupid they may seem - will always get better praise, even from the tech savvy.

 

[Zarkov]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

Because new gamers mean more money for the companies. which mean bigger games are released more often. Whih means our hobbies are supported, it also helps to break down the stereotype of the 'fat pimply nerd in the basement'.

Or would you rather gaming be an exclusive members-only club that's virtually impenetrable by any but the most dedicated, with a tiny community offering them what they want due to a lack of audience and cashflow?

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

No, the "you" refers to the gamer. More money for Bethesda doesn't help YOU. Bigger games streamlined for non ES fans, not YOU. If you happen to like the streamlined changes, that's fantastic but don't expect everyone to feel the same.

Honestly, all the people who think no one should criticize the changes makes me question the maturity of some of the fans. I guess we should all just shower praise on Bethesda or keep our mouths shut? If the game fails because no one spoke up about the bad things during development, then there will be mo more ES games.

You've fallen into the slippery slope fallacy without reason to do so. From what they have told us, a total of four useless skills have been removed and the character creation portion of the game is done through GAMEPLAY instead of menus.

Now, these two facets of the game are so tiny to the whole game that I wonder how anyone could COMPLAIN about them. When the game comes out, and there's something REALLY bad about it, then go complaining. Chances are, I'll join you. But from what we know RIGHT NOW, without speculation, the game will be changed in very small ways. If you consider character creation a big portion of the game, then you've kinda missed the point.

You assume that I hold an opinion that I never gave to prop up your own; again, another fallacy. I never said fans should never criticize, I said fans should criticize when there's reason to. Wait until the game comes out, then start whining god dammit.

EDIT: Or, I should say I implied those opinion, not necessarily gave in your defense.

It isn't a slippery slope fallacy when they remove more stuff every game. There is every reason to think they will continue doing so after Skyrim.

That you like what was removed isn't the point, the point is that it has been done with every game and will continue to be done...so no fallacy.

Yes, but a total of four skills have been removed [which were useless and easily forgotten], and the menus in the beginning have been taken away. Just because a couple of forgettable things happen to be removed doesn't mean the game is going to stray completely away from that old traditional RPG fetish that everyone seems to have.

You're claiming that it is going to end the game for you, that the game will hence become unplayable in your eyes. That is blowing it out of proportion and also is the complete definition of a slippery slope fallacy.

 

[Contradiction]

This is could bad... Seriously they had their niche for a reason. If I wanted to play 'streamlined' games then I would go play dragon age 2 but I won't because its terrible (case and point). Is it too much to ask that just one RPG stay true to the older ways of doing things. Second note that someone mentioned that the average console player wouldn't know about a lot of RPG stuff... Well that's great maybe they either learn or don't play.
That said I love Bethesda and have nothing but praise for their works. So I have faith in them but I will very disappointed if this game goes the way of so many others and panders to a bunch of people not willing to learn and in doing so sullies there own games and wastes my money.
And with all their recent acquisition its not like they can't release other games for that 'streamlined' audience.

I need to know... why are the old ways better? I mean, I loved Morrowind and whatnot, but why is simplified depth a problem? Skills in Skyrim [as far as I can tell] are going to have meaning beyond the numbers. They're going to unlock abilities in multiple ability trees under one skill. I'd much prefer that over the older ways where numbers only stood for what you could do and how well you did it; if I wanted that, I'd go play me some Dark Heresy or Dungeon and Dragons.

Is it nostalgia? Do the virtual flowers smell better back then?

And - correct me if I'm wrong - but all games strive, no matter the genre, to be accessible to anyone who plays it. Accessibility ties greatly into immersion - and in a games such as TES -immersion is key to a wonderful game. To get lost in such a world can be the most amazing thing to happen to you. I don't blame the developers for wanting to take out the menus, take out "settings" and such and make sure the game is played instead of planned.

I make games myself, and the ones that can be played easily - no matter how stupid they may seem - will always get better praise, even from the tech savvy.

Sure immersion is the key to and RPG but you buy a game for a certain experience and with ES I want my stuff complex but you do have a point.
No its not really nostalgia.
In short I have loved some games that have 'streamlined' in sequels but I'm wary of oversimplification. Its a hard line to walk between detracting and improving imo.

 

[Zarkov]

This may be a difference in opinion, but I value quality over quantity in this sense. In Morrowind, yes there were 27 total skills but at least a fourth of them would turn out to be near useless, and the only thing "skills" accounted for was the accuracy and efficiency of the weapon you use [of course, for weapons in this case. But with other items, it only determined how well you did a certain thing]. In oblivion, the more meaningless skills [for the most part] were dropped or combined. But this time around, skills not only advanced with efficiency but they also [sometimes] gave special abilities to go along with them. Now, in Skyrim, they have been simplified yet again but now skills give you special abilities that you unlock with the usage of that skill. And this would be for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. And beyond that, as far as weapons are concerned, you specialize in a certain weapon by using its specific ability tree.

To me, depth over numbers is the way to go, but I know how you like your numbers so much.

Besides, how can depth and meaning beyond simple numbers be bad? Now skills unlock abilities for how you use them. And I never understood why so many skills in Morrowind were needed anyway. A lot of them were redundant, especially weapon skills, because you there's a huge difference between shiny pointy object A, and shiny pointy object B.

There was never a lack of quality in Morrowind. Yes, the combat was kind of clunky, but as far as depth and character customization went, it was second to none against the newer Elder Scrolls games.

So basically, my opinion is that quality + quantity > quality. Which is hard to argue with.

There are obvious differences between weapons that should be included. A dagger strikes quickly and accurately, but deals less damage that a sword would upon hit. To classify these both as just "pointy objects" is silly.

Ah, you are a worthy opponent.

But as a tip, just because you say something has quality, doesn't mean it has quality.

And oh, how you dodged what I meant about quality over quantity is called putting up a straw man.

You didn't reply to my basic argument, and instead focused it to another part of the game, character creation , instead of skills [the original subject] and decided because character creation has depth then my previous argument is invalid, which is untrue and a fallacy in and of itself.

But other than that, I definitely agree Morrowind has it props in character creation and the depth of one's character. I personally believe the quests in Morrowind did more for the character and the world it resided in than Oblivion. But that's based in opinion, not in fact. And it's also not what I was talking about before.

In other words "my opinion is that quality + quantity > quality" was never supported in the argument we were holding and therefore has no relevance to the issue at hand; that issue being that of only the skills in Morrowind versus Skyrim. And unless you wanted to start a whole other argument irrelevant to this one, then the statement was out of place.

Oh, and about the sword and dagger conundrum; I think you over thought what you put down. Just because a weapon's stats are different [a dagger hitting more accurately and quicker by nature, versus a sword doing more damage upon impact by nature] doesn't mean that how you USE the weapon is different. Skills are based upon how well you accomplish a task, and if the task at hand was killing someone by jabbing or slicing then there wouldn't be a difference between say a sword, dagger, or an axe. If you can use a sword well, chances are you can use a dagger well also. Now, that doesn't mean that because you can use a sword as an expert that you can use a lighter dagger as an expert. Skyrim solves this quite elegantly with the skills tree. By using a weapon in the "shiny pointy objects" skill, the certain weapon that you are using [let's say shiny pointy object A] will start to ascertain abilities for that weapon. However, the skill number will remain the same for each of the shiny pointies, including shiny pointy object B. Make sense?

Heh. I should stop talking before I get my panties in a bunch. lol

 

[SillyBear]

Edit: I accidentally reported the post directly above. My bad!

This may be a difference in opinion, but I value quality over quantity in this sense. In Morrowind, yes there were 27 total skills but at least a fourth of them would turn out to be near useless, and the only thing "skills" accounted for was the accuracy and efficiency of the weapon you use [of course, for weapons in this case. But with other items, it only determined how well you did a certain thing]. In oblivion, the more meaningless skills [for the most part] were dropped or combined. But this time around, skills not only advanced with efficiency but they also [sometimes] gave special abilities to go along with them. Now, in Skyrim, they have been simplified yet again but now skills give you special abilities that you unlock with the usage of that skill. And this would be for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. And beyond that, as far as weapons are concerned, you specialize in a certain weapon by using its specific ability tree.

To me, depth over numbers is the way to go, but I know how you like your numbers so much.

Besides, how can depth and meaning beyond simple numbers be bad? Now skills unlock abilities for how you use them. And I never understood why so many skills in Morrowind were needed anyway. A lot of them were redundant, especially weapon skills, because you there's a huge difference between shiny pointy object A, and shiny pointy object B.

There was never a lack of quality in Morrowind. Yes, the combat was kind of clunky, but as far as depth and character customization went, it was second to none against the newer Elder Scrolls games..

Kind of clunky? If that game was released today with that combat it wouldn't break budget. The combat was God awful.

--

This isn't a bad thing. In many ways, Skyrim sounds more complicated than Oblivion due to the skill trees and different branches to take. I like the sound of it, can't wait!