Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

[Pierce Graham]

That's why I replay games like Morrowind and Halo: CE every so often, to remind myself that for every bland, run-of-the-mill game like Modern Warfare and Halo 3, gaming is still worth keeping track of.
Every so often a new, interesting game will come out to counter-act the streamlined gloop of gaming with a large cupcake.

 

[HaMSt3rBoT]

STREAMLINING is good, eh? Well it certainly didn't help Dungeon Siege III imo... >A>

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

snip

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

well it has to advance but it seems to turn into something else:

they should rather advance on such things as face animation, voice acting, scenery, movement and collision detection, loading times.... But thats just my silly opinion, i guess?

They aren't mutually exclusive. But go ahead and *****, it's what you're going to do anyway.

 

[Strazdas]

but isn't that all rpgs doing? we all have to choose character traits before we actually play the game, we wouldn't be able to play it if we didn't. I'm not against removing confusion, but I like to have as many skill choices as possible. What would be ideal i think is have a developing skill tree, for example a player chooses a close range fighting at the beginning, after certain skill points is reached the branch expands and you can train in hand-to-hand, light meele, heavy meele, insert-your-fantasy-here. It has been done before, and it worked.

P.S. captcha just told me "ditside stoned"

 

[Raykuza]

Oh thank god they're doing this. I just recently bought and started playing Oblivion, and I'm having a tough time finding what skill combinations work (agility + H2H = fucking terrible). I've thrown out like 3 characters; it's getting frustrating. I just keep thinking that it really shouldn't be this difficult for someone who's been playing RPG's for at least a decade.

 

[Elosandi]

if you wanted to be a mage that deals damage with fire and decided you wanted to be a mage who deals damage by summoning creatures instead, even if you were only one hour into the game, you were fucked.

One of my friends created a character with major skills they never used...and ended up absolutely destroying everything.

In Elder Scrolls games, it has been possible to end up as a master of all trades, so taking a major skill in something else wont prevent you from advancing in any other discipline. In fact, due to Oblivion's level scaled encounters, you would actually be in a better position if you took destruction as a major skill and then just leveled conjuration later on as you could then achieve master level in it, while still only being level 1-5. (i.e. Tier 1 enemies)

 

[Double A]

I thought Beth was setting the game up so that you don't get skill boosts at the beginning, thereby eliminating the problem outright. I don't see the need to give hand-to-hand the boot on top of that.

They've just got to be careful with the pc version and i can say screw you to the console ports, cause i ain't going to be buying them.

Actually, I think Beth's developing it on the console, so it'll actually be a PC port.

Yeah, I'm pissed too.

 

[Gunner 51]

So long as the DLC is done sensibly and fairly - I won't mind. I don't mind simplifying the games - because I've never once used a class in TES games that preferred fists over blades / spells.

*Capcha*
Ereduthe Bryndza - I think H.P Lovecraft is writing these things...

 

[The Lunatic]

Thinking about it.

Didn't the Fallout games make more money than Oblivion?

I mean, the may not have sold as many copies, but, I imagine the development costs were much higher than Oblivion and therefore the Fallouts made more money.

Given Fallout is a very "Streamlined" version of Oblivion, simple 2-piece armours, no archive of spells, no enchanting, a simpler open world, without too many dungeons and side quests, generally speaking, the entire game is just Oblivion set in a different time and with a lot of the more RPGish features removed. (Not to say Fallout doesn't have RPG features, but, compared to Oblivion.)

One can't help but think that this would be a factor is deciding how to make the next game.

On top of this, you have to consider that the average console gamer isn't terribly familiar with the RPG genre and thus things like Enchanting, debuffs and other such stuff like that aren't things that just fly freely with them. Thus, to make everything simpler is to prove more appealing.

Not to say it's going to be a bad game. But, I really do prefer a complex and indepth RPG. Which is one of the reasons people have always looked to the Elderscrolls series.

 

[Xaio30]

In Oblivion, you picked exactly what you wanted to be when you left the first dungeon, and if you wanted to be a mage that deals damage with fire and decided you wanted to be a mage who deals damage by summoning creatures instead, even if you were only one hour into the game, you were fucked.

Summoning is the easiest skill by far to level, since all it takes is you summoning the same creature over and over again to gain fast XP. Destruction, on the other hand, requires you to hit a living creature with a Destruction spell to gain XP. Much, much slower to level.

 

[Duffeknol]

I remember punching out the entire arena with my bare hands, I hope they'll just make strength the replacement for hand to hand, would make sense.

not really.
if you are really strong you still could hit sh..nothing since you dont have a proper technique. you would miss most shots and in the end be more exausted.

the other way around if you are fairly strong and have a proper technique you can knock around the clock since the point of having such a technique is to deal damadge and fairly preserve stamina.

One punch is all you need. Ever seen Mighty Mo fight in a K1 match?

 

[Numb1lp]

I think it's a great idea, and personally, I think I could really convince my younger brothers to play this game. They've always liked RPGs, but most of them are too complicated for them to get a good character started. Allowing players to have an easier time making a character will make it easier for my broskis to jump into the game and be as emersed as I am. This actually has me really excited; to be able to finally share my favorite genre with my two little bros.

 

[bakan]

I can't help but remember an article from this week http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/8998-Too-Much-Success when someone claims older RPGs are too complicated...

Personally I think complex games are a lot more satisfying

 

[Zarkov]

You know, looking through the comments makes me see only one thing: "THEY CHANGED IT! IT SUCKS NOW! WE WANTED THE EXACT SAME GAME!"

-_-

Seriously people, if you want the old experience then go play the old game. The developers ARE trying to attract new gamers, not personally screw you over. They above all things want to make the games FUN, and yet so many of you re whining and complaining about the smallest thing, making it seem like there is no possible way the game could be good, WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT!

On topic.

Oblivion was kinda bad for having a lot of semi-useless skills. Like mercantile. Really? Really? Why do I want to specialize in dragging stuff around. I mean I know it's an option but it doesn't sound fun. I play elder scroll games to whack things, not play a merchant sim.

Yeah cause trying to attract new gamers has such a fantastic track record. Why of why would we ever be concerned?

snip

More money for who (not you)? Bigger games streamlined even further for who (not you)? Yeah, what is the benefit to individual gamers.

Is it really a good practice to gain new gamers with every game only to tell them that what they liked in the game will be removed in the next game to attract new gamers? It's a vicious cycle.

Well, if this "you" person happens to be in that exclusive memebers-only club, then I say who cares.

Honestly, the nit-picking going on with this game seriously makes me wonder about the maturity of the fans. The game HAS TO ADVANCE, not stay stagnant because of some grumpy fans.

Hell, I've played all of the TES games and I'm gonna love the streamlining done here.

well it has to advance but it seems to turn into something else:

they should rather advance on such things as face animation, voice acting, scenery, movement and collision detection, loading times.... But thats just my silly opinion, i guess?

I don't remember Todd ever saying that Skyrim would have a stat system like Fallout. And well, Oblivion and Fallout were exactly the same as far as their egine goes, and Skyrim is supposed to be in a completely overhauled engine with the skills as such changing with it.

I'm not too sure what you're getting at, but face animation voice acting, scenery, movement, and collision detection [not sure about loading times] have by as far as I can tell, improved significantly. Hence, the engine being revamped.

 

[Zarkov]

Okay. There is some flawed logic in your post --- Adding features and improving are NOT directly correlated. Yes, a new feature may improve the game, but a new feature could similarly ruin a game. If features and functions were never removed, the game could never advance. Good ratings and the amount of copies sold doesn't mean that any particular function in the game was responsible for it. If a function deemed better off without, then the logical path is to remove the function. Bethesda may not get everything right, but they sure damn well are trying.

And if games only improved by ADDING, then they might as well make DLCs for their sequels. The point is to IMPROVE, not add.

In chinangel's defense, he's trying to express (correct me if I'm wrong) that some features being removed in a game just aren't worth complaining about. Take for example the skill Hand to hand. That skill was definitely useless; I wanted to make a character that only used hand to hand, but in both previous titles it's been near impossible unless I wore armor that I god-modded in or I obtained so far in the game that there had been no use improving the skill.
It's not a voice of opinion, it's a petty complaint only for those who get a little butthurt because their sequel is advancing, but just slightly off to what they wanted.

And, to be honest? There has never been a company better about their community than Bethesda. Bethesda welcomes modding and tampering of their game with full support; they listen to their fans while improving and planning for their next game --- they even view mods and wonder how the more popular ones work so well and how they could be fit into their next game within reason.

And really, there isn't a divide by nature in the industry. It really varies between each and every dev studio out there.

So even worse, what happens if they remove a feature we know was good to add in a feature that turns out to be shit? In that case, your argument becomes counter-intuitive to itself, now doesn't it?

Point is, there are no guarantees. So if you're going to try something new, you might as well try it alongside the stuff you know worked in previous iterations of your game series, yes? More skills > less skills. There's no upside to reducing the amount of character diversity and/or reducing re-playability based on that. Oblivion was already a step backwards in that regard, so Skyrim had a lot of catch-up to do. Thus it was understandable when many fans reacted negatively to the announcement that even more stuff was being cut.

FYI, I did just fine playing through the entirety of Morrowind and its expansions with a hand-to-hand/illusion specialized character.

Again, you misunderstood what my point was. I was stating several pieces of logic to support a standing opinion; you took the support as the opinion. Also, counter-intuitive means my argument works against me; but my argument was simply that games improve not by specifically ADDING features, but improving as a whole. Therefore counter-intuitive proves to be an irrelevant word in this sense.

To answer your previous question as you did yourself, that is a possible outcome.

But from what I can tell, the features the are removing are simply too small for anyone besides the nit-picky to care about. Now, the features they are adding make the features they are removing so small that I'll probably forget about them as soon as I start playing it.

Now, when the game is released and there truly is something to whine about, then we should. But as far as anyone can tell there's no reason to complain. They're simply adding and changing the game to a degree that I'm not sure HOW you'd take it as a bad thing.