Skyward Sword

Mr. Fahrenheit

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"Reviews are SUBJECTIVE."

And yet Yahtzee uses terminology like 'Prove me wrong'. A reviewer shouldn't have to use personal bias or descriptions such as 'I hate motion controls because they aren't fun' to explain their view on a game. You should use as much objective fact as you can and try not to present your opinion as if it were concrete fact.
 

Something Amyss

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WhiteTigerShiro said:
It's a fair complaint, though. It's like video game companies sat down an all agreed that they need to find a way to make the age-old "It's the controller's fault" complaint that sore losers make into a valid gripe. Well good for them I guess, we've created games in which it is genuinely the controller's fault if you lose... now can we go back to the control method that just works, please?
You'll never get the Zelda fans to agree, however. Well, the ones going after Yahtzee. Not only are the controls the epitome of motion gaming, but they have the reviews to prove it!

Control lag is one of the biggest issues I've had with the Wii's controls, and I've been told the problem is inherent in Kinect as well. Long as there's that kind of underlying problem, the number of refinements won't matter. I seriously hope this isn't the epitome of motion gaming, though, because my friends are reporting issues with the controls. but I'm sure they "just suck at it" or something.

Case in point up the page a bit. Yahtzee apparently "just sucks at" motion controls and there is no such thing as controller lag.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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Zachary Amaranth said:
WhiteTigerShiro said:
It's a fair complaint, though. It's like video game companies sat down an all agreed that they need to find a way to make the age-old "It's the controller's fault" complaint that sore losers make into a valid gripe. Well good for them I guess, we've created games in which it is genuinely the controller's fault if you lose... now can we go back to the control method that just works, please?
You'll never get the Zelda fans to agree, however. Well, the ones going after Yahtzee. Not only are the controls the epitome of motion gaming, but they have the reviews to prove it!

Control lag is one of the biggest issues I've had with the Wii's controls, and I've been told the problem is inherent in Kinect as well. Long as there's that kind of underlying problem, the number of refinements won't matter. I seriously hope this isn't the epitome of motion gaming, though, because my friends are reporting issues with the controls. but I'm sure they "just suck at it" or something.

Case in point up the page a bit. Yahtzee apparently "just sucks at" motion controls and there is no such thing as controller lag.
The problem with that is it's anecdotal evidence.

I've played the game. I have no problem with the precision or timing of the controls. My sword is held where I want it to be hold. I attack from the direction that I want and it happens when I want it to happen. Any lag that may exist has never negatively impacted my gameplay to the point where I think it's a legitimate flaw.

And yet there are still people who insist that the controls in any motion game don't work the way they want. I don't have anyway to disprove that because my satisfaction is all from personal experience. It's a hard topic to discuss.
 

Kaitengiri

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"Fanboys, please defend this."

Okay.

So the first of the many complaints I hear about this game that I've personally deemed unjustifible from my position ontop of my self-appointed throne of gaming-critic-that-doesn't-actually-critique anything is that the game has bad controls and it's generally at this point I stop paying attention to anything that's being said by that person because anyone who can't grasp their heads around the controls of this game is either incredibly stupid or is literally trying not to much like a child that that's never tried pizza before is vehemently shaking his head and pretending that it tastes terrible because it looks icky.
In fact, on the subject matter, it seems that people who had problems with the controls tend to boil down to two groups of people consisting of those who were neutral on the subject (and I say neutral cause there was only 1 or 2 games that used Motion Controls+ and of those games I know exactly zero people who've played them so there can't be anybody who's positive about it) and the people who are naturally biased and want nothing to do with the controls and refuse to even try it.

To those people in the latter group I say "Instead of bitching, have you tried not sucking"?

Much like the old saying of "A great fisherman never chooses his own lure", a great gamer or even an intelligent adult should reasonably be able to figure out how to swing the Wiimote in the direction that it's required instead of sitting there jiggling their oversized limpwrist at the direction of the T.V. then spending hours on the internet complaining about it when I just stop reading when I see the word waggle being used. "C'mon, guys." I say to them. "If you're willing to learn overcomplicated button press schematics on a keyboard or even a controller why can't you learn to flick your wrist in a simple precise motion?"
"NO!" they would respond to me while fidgeting uncomfortably as they fold their arms and turn the other way in a pout-like manner resembling that of a cathlic schoolgirl except without the skirts and the implied jail ba-Where was I again? Oh yes, right, speaking of schoolgirls, I have a 12 year-old niece who doesn't have an issue with the controls and even prefers it to the older Zelda titles and if that doesn't embarrass you (As you sit there thinking of clever insults to imply towards a 12 year-old's opinion on a "mature adult game") then I ask if you even take these things seriously in the first place.

Now onto the much dreaded topic of the notorious "fetch quests" and "padding" which has been running so rampant ever since the days of Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft (which has seriously made me want to take a hammer to the server of every single MMORPG and shove the whole damn thing up the anus of the nearby maintenance crew as I slowly watch the whole place slowly consume itself with negligence) which everyone and their mother has been spouting out like a catch phrase. It's not a fetch quest, you loon. A fetch quest is where you're told to go find monster x and kill him y many times, possibly even doing the extra step of bringing back token z drop that you can't even use as a normal item and therefore doesn't develop the plot or even the character other than the fact that it's attempting to mask that you're just level grinding and you're going to be doing this over the next span of your ENTIRE LIFE. A fetch quest is not "any quest where someone has told you what you need to find" and yes, technically I'm aware of the fact that it's a fetch quest on the grounds that you're told to fetch something but saying that would allow me to call Super Mario Bros and RPG and I would be technically right so long as you're playing the role of Mario in a video game you twat.

It's not even really padding because every instance of a quest in this game is either in a new area which is labyrinth like in nature with baddies and treasures and off-beaten paths for you to explore OR it's the same area with drastic changes to it including more off-beaten paths different baddies and even whole new sections to explore that take you off to the above example of a whole new area with new things to see and new labyrinths to plumb AND THEN you have the example of the water pot and the dragon which is done in less than 4 minutes and you're even given a handy map, compass in the shape of Fi's dowsing ability, and the ability to warp there, which confuses me because obviously the effect of padding is to increase the game's play time with insubstantial long-lasting activities which you've already done adnauseum and blatantly beaten like the proverbial dead horse and not for it to be a quick in and out "we really don't want you to dwadle on this part too long because you have the rest of the game to play" section that simply tests your memory like a pop quiz which the only people who would have complained about are those who either failed it because they were too busy sitting in class not listening and texting their friend about what happened at the ol' ball game or the people who are simply want to complain about everything.

Exploration seekers always make me laugh in a Zelda game because there's only been one Zelda based on exploration and that was the original NES title which is a game that almost nobody in their late teens has even touched because they can't even stand to look at the graphics and the ones who have often go crying to their mums about how the bad game touched them in their dirty places because they can't handle actually having to search for shit without the game subtly guiding them in their right way. It occurs to me that this is a poor argument for suggesting that this game has exploration in it, saying that the other Zelda's don't, but that's the thing. They don't and I don't know where people get this idea from OR actually it's not exploration in the traditional sense but rather maze-solving would be a better word for what the Zelda titles do. People these days tend to take the word exploring and liken it to the phrase "Going off the rails" and imply that it's always a good idea after being given a wonderfully constructed plot, set of dungeons, monsters, items, and nefarious do-badders is to do the COMPLETE FUCKING OPPOSITE. In a game of Dungeons and Dragons this is called derailing the campeign and doing so will quickly find you on the DM's blacklist and all of your party standing around in a hastily drawn inn for some generic tolkein rip-off that he had to make up on the fly to accommodate your need to ruin your hosts labor-intensive well constructed plans.

Exploring is more akin to you're told what to look for, but you're not told HOW to look for it or where it is and in this aspect Zelda is abound as the game masterfully places you at the start of the maze you need to be at with subtle clues and by locking you into a one-lane race track that you didn't even notice because of all the pretty pictures on the way. That's right, start up any Zelda and quickly notice that all of them are "linear" (which is a holdover from bad FPS games that I hate almost as much as MMOs; see metaphor above) they just trick you into thinking they're not by letting you look at all the areas you COULD be at if you had the proper item and may even let you take a picture. Skyward Sword removes this illusion by taking out the windows, and suddenly everyone starts crying that the game has been made too straight-forward because they can't waste 10 hours trying to figure out how to get past a post in the ground that they could have gotten passed by just playing the damn game like they normally would, instead of badgering it like a ram trying to find. . .er, whatever it is that ram's like to ram into for. Hookers and booze? I'unno.

Fi is another interesting complaint I hear about because whenever I hear about it I can always recognize the people with insufferable Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It's actually a very rare moment when Fi interrupts the gameplay in any significant way due to her text dialogues popping up almost exclusively when you enter into a new area from a doorway or during conversation scenes where you're already engaged in a scene you can't break away from regardless, so the only REAL time Fi has to interrupt anything that you might be in the middle of would be with her message about the low battery or the low heart gauge, and both of those you can completely ignore and will go away after roughly five seconds if you so choose to. In fact a lot of her non-conversational scenes require input from the player to even activate and it makes me wonder how any of these people got through ocarina of time or even could possibly say that they liked Navi more than Fi because Navi's chime is a lot more in your face with "HEY! LISTEN TO ME! I'M IMPORTANT! LINK! HURRY UP! C'MON! TALK TO ME!", with Fi being more like a simple chiming effect that you might not even notice in the heat of heavy battle (assuming you aren't stuck on the controls and simply trying to cheese your way around everything in an attempt to avoid actually learning to play the game), like elevator music, or soothing wind-chimes, it's completely possible to ignore it and continue on, but for whatever reason, these people lack that innate ability to ignore being pestered, and I fear for the day when these same people have children and have to respond to every instance of "DAADDDY" even when they know that it's not going to be anything important enough to turn away from their work for.

Lastly, and this is on a more personal note, I come here to be trolled, Mr. "I hate everything because it's funnier that way" Yahtzee. I enjoy coming here every week and leaving in blind seething rage much like a Stockholm's syndrome kidnappee princess peach enjoys being kidnapped by a fire breathing dragon-turtle on a daily basis, but this time I'm deeply disappointed in you, not for your choice of game or words or even your childish antiques of turning this whole Skyward Sword thing into a huge debate, but because frankly your arguments about the game are lukewarm at best and you end it by saying "this is the worst Zelda I've ever played" complete with graph and chart like you scientifically calculated your hate for this in the scale that computer AI uses in that one horror story which has a long name and involves screaming when one can't. I saw Skyward Sword and was ready to be brought to tears as you thoroughly thrashed what's been one of the best Zelda titles to the date of the franchise, but all I got instead was a severe case of the "That's it?". Any of these arguments can simply be brought down by the fact that you obviously purposely tried NOT to enjoy this game, and right-o you clever wanker, you succeeded. You've successfully forced yourself to play through the entirety of a game you didn't like (or pretended not to like) for the sake of cheap laughs and because you felt you had to for your imaginary friends on the internet. I'd give you a gold medal, but they don't pass those out at the special Olympics.
 

I forgot

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Kaulen Fuhs said:
I forgot said:
Yahtzee resorting to middle school antics with "if I don't gush it with praise, zelda's fanboy army will attack me" is really fucking pathetic. Use your brain for a minute. People aren't mad because you "pointed out a flaw" but because it's actually horseshit that isn't really a flaw, one you contrive or one you don't explain. You've been doing this for how long and you can't accept criticism yourself?
Except, wonder of wonders, he was actually right.

Zelda fanboys aren't attacking him because he pointed out flaws; that much is true. They are attacking him because he expressed a negative opinion of a game they liked.

For example, I've seen someone outright state that they cannot handle the fact that someone doesn't like a game they like (in reference to Zelda: SS), and that was why they were so upset.
No, he isn't. That isn't something you can say he's "right" because you saw one guy say it and it's not hard to imagine that many don't like the review because of what I already said in my first post. Not everyone that dissmissed the review is a "fanboy"; it's an abstract argument but that much is just common fucking sense.
 

stinkyrobot

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ilovemyLunchbox said:
Here's an eye-opener... Without googling it, what was the name of the final boss?

Go ahead and lie and say you remember after having googled it, but you know and I both know you don't remember a damn thing.

A Zelda game where you can't remember who the last boss was... Awful.
His name is Demise. I didn't google it and I admit that as far as villains go even for zelda games he's bland, but his name is FUCKING DEMISE! That's not something forgettable.
 

Mamzelle_Kat

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This article pretty much sums up why I wasn't sad to let my Wii go despite knowing a new Zelda title was in the making. I mean, I've played SO many Zelda titles in my life I just think I'm burned out! When I play a newer one all I'm wondering is whether I'll go to the Forest, Fire or Water dungeon first, at what point in the game I'm going to get the hookshot, bow, bombs and better shield, and while I completely understand the idea of having 'legacy items' in a game, I think I'm tired of these specific elements. They did try to make it more appealing by introducing something new with the array of motion-controlled items, but it just wasn't enough to make me want to play it.

In fact, the Zelda titles I enjoyed the most were Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time. To me, once you've played OoT or ALttP, you've pretty much seen them all. Only MM and WW made me think that I really was playing a new game.
 

Emz

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I enjoy Zelda games but I was slightly disappointed by Skyward Sword for a few reasons.

I enjoy the art style (minus Link's weird face) but I definitely agree with the terrible motion controls. All the times I have got annoyed so far with the game have been when the controls have reacted too late and resulted in Link doing something stupid. What is worse is they intend to keep the control scheme for the next game I recall reading somewhere.

The lack of opportunity to explore is also a huge set back making the game feel very "guided". I cannot just go out and explore and marvel at the diverse scenery. I think Majoras Mask is a good contender for interesting level and world design. Same for Wind Waker too minus most of the islands were pretty useless (a problem inherited by Skyward Sword, which was a shame.)

I'm a huge Zelda fangirl but I do agree with you Yahtzee. Not all fanboys/fangirls of the franchise are like the picture you're painting in the article. Some of us definitely agree with you.
 

Hal10k

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Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
 

Mahoshonen

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It's quite revealing that those defending the controllers are resorting to attacking the mental capacities of those who dislike them.

Apparently some fans "get" the wii controls and some don't. That's fine. I think they are wonky, but my friend believes they are fun. This is using the same controller, for the same system, in the same room. We didn't argue the point further because it was trivial.

People are different. I know this sounds like a copout argument, and pleading for civility in an internet forum is like trying to hold a peace accord in Mogadishu. But I think its important. It's not just how well people can use it, its also the standard that they hold it to.

However, I do feel that a company that wants to market itself as having mass appeal should ask some serious questions when it turns out a significant percentage of the target market feels the controller is bad. Their complaints won't go away no matter how many times you tell them they must have Multiple sclerosis. Either you accept that your controller doesn't appeal to everyone or improve the controller.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Yahtzee himself mentioned in the article that he is bias against motion controls...but then he covered that up by saying it's just because he was bias against things that weren't fun.

See, he defeated the purpose of admitting bias by then trying to present his personal feelings as absolute facts. After that statement, if you don't think that he in particular is irrationally bias and prone to ignore objectivity, then I don't know what to say. The article also herds together anyone who thinks positively of the game into a big group of fanboys who ignore objective flaws, even though that's logically untrue.
 

Hal10k

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Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Yahtzee himself mentioned in the article that he is bias against motion controls...but then he covered that up by saying it's just because he was bias against things that weren't fun.

See, he defeated the purpose of admitting bias by then trying to present his personal feelings as absolute facts. After that statement, if you don't think that he in particular is irrationally bias and prone to ignore objectivity, then I don't know what to say. The article also herds together anyone who thinks positively of the game into a big group of fanboys who ignore objective flaws, even though that's logically untrue.
Look, of course he's biased. I'm just going to repost what I wrote on the video thread instead of rewriting my opinion on this:

Whether or not you agree with his criticisms is subjective, of course. But don't disregard him just because he's biased. We're all biased in one way or another; that's one of the downsides of actually possessing a long-term memory in conjunction with the capacity for logical reasoning. Yahtzee's opinion is biased because he dislikes the Wii. The argument you made is biased because you disliked Yahtzee's review. The argument I'm making right now is biased because I'm really uptight about semantics for some reason. If you want a genuinely unbiased review of a game, I'd suggest rolling a ten-sided die.
There's no such thing as being "unfairly biased". And as for "ignoring objectivity"- you do realize that whether or not you enjoy a game is the polar opposite of objectivity, right?
 

Dunkerloop

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Personally, I really did like the game, but in the end, Fi would probably, no, has a GUARANTEED spot as my pick for the worst sidekick ever. I plugged my ears whenever I heard her voice, which was rather often, and got annoyed at how often she repeated stuff we already learned literally 10 seconds before.
 

Bluecho

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I think what turned me off about Fi more than anything, more than her dispassion or her stating of the obvious all the time, is the fact that she has no eyes. And it makes sense, being essentially a robot. But it's kind of hard to latch onto a character with no real eyes, just a space on her face where eyes would be. If they'd given her a visor or goggles, I probably wouldn't have minded all that much.

One of the Let's Players I follow did an LP for SS, and mostly for time reasons I stopped watching it. And yet when I thought of catching up, I found I really don't want to all that much. The game looks beautiful, and has an interesting impressionistic art style. But despite how much that LPer loved the game while playing, I just couldn't get on board.

Another thing, Zelda creeps me out. It's her nose, it's freaky looking. And it's offputting, because most of the beginning of the game is spent hanging out with her. Not that spending time with the fair maiden is bad, because then at least the player can care about who they're risking their lives to save. But Wind Waker did it so much better.

I really need to buy WW, though it may be diffucult given how expensive it probably is at this point.
 

Sovvolf

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Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Very good point. You know, I've never been for or against Zelda games. Kind of always had an outside look at things. I played a few but never really got hooked so they've always been a me'h product to me. The one I got the furthest through was Windwaker though didn't complete it due to the Gamecube breaking down and not having the money to replace it.

However, as a fellow who frequents the web, I'm certainly familiar with the Legend of Zelda series and the fandom. Overtime you tend to pick things up through reading comments on reviews (such as this) and reading forums and such. The idea the fans tend to give me from and outside perspective is that they're bloody looney*. Its near impossible to criticize a Zelda game, even if the criticism is entirely justified, without having them swarm upon you like rabid dogs. Must make it incredibly hard for a critic to review such a series.

I was once watching a review for the Wii port of Ocarina (I think that was it) on Gamespot and I read the comments and they were going savage, death threats, threats of violence, blaming of other franchises, the industry and so on... For what you may ask? They scored the game 9.5 instead of 10, that 0.5 of a score caused pretty much chaos in that comment section. That always perplexed me. Even now, reading a few reactions here you get the feeling that people are really saying "You can review and be mean to any other game, however if you touch TLOZ, your a bias arsehole and not actually a critic"... The fanbase actually put me off getting into the series, which is a shame as I really do want to get it another try.

You know, I'm a big fan of the Final Fantasy series, even the more poor games, so the series I'm a fan of tends to get quite a lot of flack, specially the recent ones. However I don't go rampantly insane with death threats about it, I don't vigorously deny all the flaws pointed out, I mostly just accept that its their opinion and I can look past that. Plenty of the games I like get equal amount of flack... Doesn't mean I'm going to throw a jiddy fit about it. I think anyone who does needs to seriously reevaluate their lives. You peeps do understand that you don't need Yahtzee's or any other critics approval to play your game don't you?.

*I will note that not all the fans are like this, indeed they're fans out there, in this very thread that seem to be down to earth.

Also, I haven't been visited this place in a while other than to watch vids... Just wondering, with it being Wednesday and all... Where Yahtzee's weekly review is.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Yahtzee himself mentioned in the article that he is bias against motion controls...but then he covered that up by saying it's just because he was bias against things that weren't fun.

See, he defeated the purpose of admitting bias by then trying to present his personal feelings as absolute facts. After that statement, if you don't think that he in particular is irrationally bias and prone to ignore objectivity, then I don't know what to say. The article also herds together anyone who thinks positively of the game into a big group of fanboys who ignore objective flaws, even though that's logically untrue.
Look, of course he's biased. I'm just going to repost what I wrote on the video thread instead of rewriting my opinion on this:

Whether or not you agree with his criticisms is subjective, of course. But don't disregard him just because he's biased. We're all biased in one way or another; that's one of the downsides of actually possessing a long-term memory in conjunction with the capacity for logical reasoning. Yahtzee's opinion is biased because he dislikes the Wii. The argument you made is biased because you disliked Yahtzee's review. The argument I'm making right now is biased because I'm really uptight about semantics for some reason. If you want a genuinely unbiased review of a game, I'd suggest rolling a ten-sided die.
There's no such thing as being "unfairly biased". And as for "ignoring objectivity"- you do realize that whether or not you enjoy a game is the polar opposite of objectivity, right?
It isn't that Yahtzee is bias...it's the fact that he admits his own bias while still insisting that his opinions are objective facts. His entire review came off to me as nothing but a ranting hated for motion controls in general.

The fact that Yahtzee leaves absolutely no room for error and reduces anyone who strongly disagrees with him to gibbering strawmen is what makes him unfairly bias.

I like Yahtzee...I think his entertaining...but that's it. He's an entertainer. As someone who objectively judges the quality of media, I don't think he's good at what he does. And yes, there are ways to objectively judge a videogame.
 

SickBritKid

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You wouldn't tell those Occupy Wall Street to sod off because their complaints are getting repetitive.

No. I tell OWS to fuck off because they're gorram hypocrites who refuse to acknowledge that they've allowed their movement to be hijacked by extremist elements who have no interest in the message, only in stirring up chaos and strife in our country.

How are OWS hypocrites? They're sponsored by Unions, who contribute a good three times as much to politics as big business and Wall Street.

And it's hilarious that they're supporting/being endorsed by the Democratic Party, who receive the Lion's Share of money from both Wall Street AND unions.
 

Mahoshonen

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Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Yahtzee himself mentioned in the article that he is bias against motion controls...but then he covered that up by saying it's just because he was bias against things that weren't fun.
But here's the thing: what one person considers 'fun' differs from others.

I find it baffling that people can derive enjoyment from Dwarf Fortress. I like the stories that come out of it, but I can't fathom who could put up with it. If I was offered a living salary to explain in detail why I don't like Dwarf Fortress, I would probably due so. And if my appeal was based on humor, I couldn't honestly write the article while trying not to hurt anyone's feelings.

But at the end of the day, my opinion that Dwarf Fortress isn't fun is subjective. So when I say "I don't like it because it's not fun," I mean that I did not find it fun. Same here for Yahtzee
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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Dunkerloop said:
Personally, I really did like the game, but in the end, Fi would probably, no, has a GUARANTEED spot as my pick for the worst sidekick ever. I plugged my ears whenever I heard her voice, which was rather often, and got annoyed at how often she repeated stuff we already learned literally 10 seconds before.
Eh, I liked her. The fact that she made her statements with such absolute certainty made her seem so cynical...like she was treating Link as an idiot. I didn't find her to be as intrusive as so many made her out to be.

Before playing the game, I was under the impression that she interrupted you whenever you were low on health. Instead, when you get down to three hearts, a soft chime sounds three times and then doesn't repeat...and you don't even have to talk to her. Probably the least annoying way of making it absolutely clear that you're low on health in any Zelda game. Her Rumors and Monster Analysis also were very helpful.

I thought she served more of a purpose than Midna...who didn't really know much about anything.

She's no Ezlo though.