Skyward Sword

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RA92

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I've never played any Zelda games beyond A Link to the Past on the GBA. In fact, I'll say the GBC, GBA and NDS were the best gaming system purchases other than my PC, but I never played any Nintendo games. Frankly, in 2011, I would not pay 50 bucks for a game like Skyward Sword. Beyond the nostalgia factor of growing up with the series, sorry, there simply isn't much worth to it.
 

CapitalistPig

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I don't mind a few silly quests here and there in my RPG games but lets be real here. This is Nintendo's Champion heading into the new year? pay $50 for a game that covers a measly 3 dungeons and a game time that is 1/3 what it should be, with volumes of substance missing and annoying sidekicks. No thanks I say. And its Zelda no less. Shouldn't it be, you know, indisputably the best latest installment? When did gamers start settling for mediocre games? Is it conditioning to accept the cheapening of a sturdy franchise that dates back to my own childhood? The fact that these arguments occur with validity is proof they blew it. "But wait!" they say, "You're not fairly judging the Wii motion controls." screw off with the Wii motion controls they were a novelty 3 years ago and now we have 3DS with more get up and go then a Wii these days. But enjoy yourselves and waste your money.
 

Jdb

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I have some flaws with this game too. Some of them aren't really flaws, but okay things Nintendo could've done better because they have the talent and resources.

Motion controls - This didn't add a lot to combat. Combat is still "run into enemy and attack as fast as you can." Except now I have to take a second to see which direction they're guarding? Why are enemies guarding most of the time anyways? I thought I would be getting into actual sword fights, not playing Simon says.

The world - Only three locations in the whole game, and you visit them three times. That's not a lot of variety compared to other Zelda games. Plus all the padding... yikes. The final song quest line killed any interest I had for another play through.

Upgrade system - Instead of doing something like a mini dungeon to upgrade our equipment we have to play Monster Hunter Lite. Errr... It works, but it feels like it doesn't belong in a Zelda game.
 

OldNewNewOld

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Stavros Dimou said:
I would agree with most things you wrote except the stopped caring about graphics and losing the darker tone.

N64 was much stronger than the PS1, same goes for the GameCube.
Both of them lost to PS 1 and PS 2. PS3 and XBOX 360 are several times stronger than the Wii. The Wii has won this generations "war".

They didn't really stop caring about the graphics. They just realized that the hardware needed for the today's graphics level is to expensive for a console. They did got a bit to much back. A middle-ground would be great. Between the Xbox 360 and the Wii.

The wanted to make the Wii as accessible as possible. This is the reason why they made is weaker. I agree that they overdid it.
But Nintendo also learned from that mistake (and hopefully from the PS3 and 3DS disaster) and they will not repeat it with the WiiU. You will see a lot article writing that the WiiU is barely stronger than the 360, which isn't true. It's much stronger. It will maybe be weaker than the next xbox or PS generation, but not much. Although I doubt it will be weaker.

About the dark tone, only Majora's Mask was darker toned. The rest was always children friendly.


But I still liked the game. The hero mode was a really challenge.

Edhellen said:
Did you even look at Links face when he fought Ghirahim the last time? Did you just ignore the hate in Links eyes?
I couldn't ever look at Link's face without laughing. I mean, how could you possibly take that seriously? He looks just like a creepy flanderization of the late Michael Jackson. It's truly an astonishing achievement that they went with a bright cartoonish style and *still* managed to invoke the uncanny valley.
Really? Because I really liked his face. After Wind Waker, Skyward Sword has the best looking face. It's adorable.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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"Yes, I'm biased against motion controls, but that's just a sub-heading of the broader overall bias against games that aren't fun."

"Prove me wrong, fans."

These are two of the most amateur statements I've ever seen from a reviewer.
 

telocaster

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Lordofthesuplex said:
One complaint that usually gets directed at me at this juncture is that pointing out how samey the games are has become a tired argument. I fucking agree, it certainly has, and yet, the problem hasn't gone anywhere, so I'm going to keep using it.
No Yahtzee, it has gone somewhere. The fact that you don't want to notice it, doesn't change that.

Yes, I'm biased against motion controls, but that's just a sub-heading of the broader overall bias against games that aren't fun. I've been trying to figure out a quick, pithy, all-encompassing way to express my reasons for thinking that motion controls are poisonous to gaming, so I can bring my opinion across in conversation without having to rant for ten minutes, and I think I've come up with something I like: Motion controls are a system wherein a game can fail you for something that completely wasn't your fault. Like smacking an electrified sword because it was horizontal half a second ago and the game only just registered your horizontal swipe. There ya go.
Translation: I cannot work a Wiimote for crap.

There is no such delay. If anything, it's the enemies changing their blocking stance a little too quickly that's the problem, not the motion controls.

I guess I was hoping to end on an actual point, but I haven't got anything wittier than "Fuck you, Skyward Sword, and also fanboys."
This is elitism plain and simple. You can't accept the fact that people are not as pretentious and have absurdly high standards as you and therefore have to generalize everyone who doesn't agree with the actual fanboys. Seriously, I'm done with Yahtzee as far as Nintendo games go. I'm only watching the stuff from the other companies he reviews from now on because if he's not biased against Nintendo then he clearly is obsessed with enhancing his standards on how he critiques games whenever that company is under the chopping block. And I hate it when anyone does that to any company. (Yes even the companies that piss me off)
Hey you can take peoples words out of context, good for you.

Reviews are SUBJECTIVE. I find it annoying when people think that things like reviewing a game or movie can be done objectively, Of course personal bias comes into it every review done by anyone. This article was response to his frustration that fanboys once again got butthurt because he did not like one game.

Also he does not hate nintendo, He hates how they essentially pissed all over the hardcore fanbase for casual gamers, He liked Super Mario Galaxy, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Earthbound, and the Mario RPGs
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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I don't really understand the complaints about Fi. Unlike certain previous companions, I actually found her to be useful. Enemy analysis almost always told me what I wanted to know. Rumors often led me to certain sidequests that I never would have found anyway. She doesn't really interrupt the gameplay very often. Her obvious advice usually come out in scripted events that would have happened anyway. I found her disposition to be unique and comical. She was data-oriented to the point of absurdity and I found to be humorous. It made me like her more...like when coming upon a Kikwi and she still gives a 5% possibility that it's Zelda.

As for motion controls, I like them as well. The problem, at least how I see it, is that it's a control scheme that calls for precision rather than waggling. If you flail around frantically, you'll of course hit things you don't meant to...or move the sword in a way you didn't intend. You aren't supposed to wave your arm at random...you're supposed to be aware of the position of your arm and swing accordingly. Some people just can't seem to get this. I've seen players continually jiggle to and fro for no reason and then complain that the game is nothing but shaking. Of course mindless motions will activate the controls, but the player is encouraged to be calm and precise. I think the controls were implemented well. My first time using Wii Motion Plus, so it took me a few minutes to get the hang of it, but I haven't had any problems since.

The game has objective flaws, but I don't think Fi or the motion controls are part of them. Fi is an interesting character for me and I think the controls are reasonably precise and intuitive.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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"Reviews are SUBJECTIVE."

And yet Yahtzee uses terminology like 'Prove me wrong'. A reviewer shouldn't have to use personal bias or descriptions such as 'I hate motion controls because they aren't fun' to explain their view on a game. You should use as much objective fact as you can and try not to present your opinion as if it were concrete fact.
 

Something Amyss

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WhiteTigerShiro said:
It's a fair complaint, though. It's like video game companies sat down an all agreed that they need to find a way to make the age-old "It's the controller's fault" complaint that sore losers make into a valid gripe. Well good for them I guess, we've created games in which it is genuinely the controller's fault if you lose... now can we go back to the control method that just works, please?
You'll never get the Zelda fans to agree, however. Well, the ones going after Yahtzee. Not only are the controls the epitome of motion gaming, but they have the reviews to prove it!

Control lag is one of the biggest issues I've had with the Wii's controls, and I've been told the problem is inherent in Kinect as well. Long as there's that kind of underlying problem, the number of refinements won't matter. I seriously hope this isn't the epitome of motion gaming, though, because my friends are reporting issues with the controls. but I'm sure they "just suck at it" or something.

Case in point up the page a bit. Yahtzee apparently "just sucks at" motion controls and there is no such thing as controller lag.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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Zachary Amaranth said:
WhiteTigerShiro said:
It's a fair complaint, though. It's like video game companies sat down an all agreed that they need to find a way to make the age-old "It's the controller's fault" complaint that sore losers make into a valid gripe. Well good for them I guess, we've created games in which it is genuinely the controller's fault if you lose... now can we go back to the control method that just works, please?
You'll never get the Zelda fans to agree, however. Well, the ones going after Yahtzee. Not only are the controls the epitome of motion gaming, but they have the reviews to prove it!

Control lag is one of the biggest issues I've had with the Wii's controls, and I've been told the problem is inherent in Kinect as well. Long as there's that kind of underlying problem, the number of refinements won't matter. I seriously hope this isn't the epitome of motion gaming, though, because my friends are reporting issues with the controls. but I'm sure they "just suck at it" or something.

Case in point up the page a bit. Yahtzee apparently "just sucks at" motion controls and there is no such thing as controller lag.
The problem with that is it's anecdotal evidence.

I've played the game. I have no problem with the precision or timing of the controls. My sword is held where I want it to be hold. I attack from the direction that I want and it happens when I want it to happen. Any lag that may exist has never negatively impacted my gameplay to the point where I think it's a legitimate flaw.

And yet there are still people who insist that the controls in any motion game don't work the way they want. I don't have anyway to disprove that because my satisfaction is all from personal experience. It's a hard topic to discuss.
 

Kaitengiri

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"Fanboys, please defend this."

Okay.

So the first of the many complaints I hear about this game that I've personally deemed unjustifible from my position ontop of my self-appointed throne of gaming-critic-that-doesn't-actually-critique anything is that the game has bad controls and it's generally at this point I stop paying attention to anything that's being said by that person because anyone who can't grasp their heads around the controls of this game is either incredibly stupid or is literally trying not to much like a child that that's never tried pizza before is vehemently shaking his head and pretending that it tastes terrible because it looks icky.
In fact, on the subject matter, it seems that people who had problems with the controls tend to boil down to two groups of people consisting of those who were neutral on the subject (and I say neutral cause there was only 1 or 2 games that used Motion Controls+ and of those games I know exactly zero people who've played them so there can't be anybody who's positive about it) and the people who are naturally biased and want nothing to do with the controls and refuse to even try it.

To those people in the latter group I say "Instead of bitching, have you tried not sucking"?

Much like the old saying of "A great fisherman never chooses his own lure", a great gamer or even an intelligent adult should reasonably be able to figure out how to swing the Wiimote in the direction that it's required instead of sitting there jiggling their oversized limpwrist at the direction of the T.V. then spending hours on the internet complaining about it when I just stop reading when I see the word waggle being used. "C'mon, guys." I say to them. "If you're willing to learn overcomplicated button press schematics on a keyboard or even a controller why can't you learn to flick your wrist in a simple precise motion?"
"NO!" they would respond to me while fidgeting uncomfortably as they fold their arms and turn the other way in a pout-like manner resembling that of a cathlic schoolgirl except without the skirts and the implied jail ba-Where was I again? Oh yes, right, speaking of schoolgirls, I have a 12 year-old niece who doesn't have an issue with the controls and even prefers it to the older Zelda titles and if that doesn't embarrass you (As you sit there thinking of clever insults to imply towards a 12 year-old's opinion on a "mature adult game") then I ask if you even take these things seriously in the first place.

Now onto the much dreaded topic of the notorious "fetch quests" and "padding" which has been running so rampant ever since the days of Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft (which has seriously made me want to take a hammer to the server of every single MMORPG and shove the whole damn thing up the anus of the nearby maintenance crew as I slowly watch the whole place slowly consume itself with negligence) which everyone and their mother has been spouting out like a catch phrase. It's not a fetch quest, you loon. A fetch quest is where you're told to go find monster x and kill him y many times, possibly even doing the extra step of bringing back token z drop that you can't even use as a normal item and therefore doesn't develop the plot or even the character other than the fact that it's attempting to mask that you're just level grinding and you're going to be doing this over the next span of your ENTIRE LIFE. A fetch quest is not "any quest where someone has told you what you need to find" and yes, technically I'm aware of the fact that it's a fetch quest on the grounds that you're told to fetch something but saying that would allow me to call Super Mario Bros and RPG and I would be technically right so long as you're playing the role of Mario in a video game you twat.

It's not even really padding because every instance of a quest in this game is either in a new area which is labyrinth like in nature with baddies and treasures and off-beaten paths for you to explore OR it's the same area with drastic changes to it including more off-beaten paths different baddies and even whole new sections to explore that take you off to the above example of a whole new area with new things to see and new labyrinths to plumb AND THEN you have the example of the water pot and the dragon which is done in less than 4 minutes and you're even given a handy map, compass in the shape of Fi's dowsing ability, and the ability to warp there, which confuses me because obviously the effect of padding is to increase the game's play time with insubstantial long-lasting activities which you've already done adnauseum and blatantly beaten like the proverbial dead horse and not for it to be a quick in and out "we really don't want you to dwadle on this part too long because you have the rest of the game to play" section that simply tests your memory like a pop quiz which the only people who would have complained about are those who either failed it because they were too busy sitting in class not listening and texting their friend about what happened at the ol' ball game or the people who are simply want to complain about everything.

Exploration seekers always make me laugh in a Zelda game because there's only been one Zelda based on exploration and that was the original NES title which is a game that almost nobody in their late teens has even touched because they can't even stand to look at the graphics and the ones who have often go crying to their mums about how the bad game touched them in their dirty places because they can't handle actually having to search for shit without the game subtly guiding them in their right way. It occurs to me that this is a poor argument for suggesting that this game has exploration in it, saying that the other Zelda's don't, but that's the thing. They don't and I don't know where people get this idea from OR actually it's not exploration in the traditional sense but rather maze-solving would be a better word for what the Zelda titles do. People these days tend to take the word exploring and liken it to the phrase "Going off the rails" and imply that it's always a good idea after being given a wonderfully constructed plot, set of dungeons, monsters, items, and nefarious do-badders is to do the COMPLETE FUCKING OPPOSITE. In a game of Dungeons and Dragons this is called derailing the campeign and doing so will quickly find you on the DM's blacklist and all of your party standing around in a hastily drawn inn for some generic tolkein rip-off that he had to make up on the fly to accommodate your need to ruin your hosts labor-intensive well constructed plans.

Exploring is more akin to you're told what to look for, but you're not told HOW to look for it or where it is and in this aspect Zelda is abound as the game masterfully places you at the start of the maze you need to be at with subtle clues and by locking you into a one-lane race track that you didn't even notice because of all the pretty pictures on the way. That's right, start up any Zelda and quickly notice that all of them are "linear" (which is a holdover from bad FPS games that I hate almost as much as MMOs; see metaphor above) they just trick you into thinking they're not by letting you look at all the areas you COULD be at if you had the proper item and may even let you take a picture. Skyward Sword removes this illusion by taking out the windows, and suddenly everyone starts crying that the game has been made too straight-forward because they can't waste 10 hours trying to figure out how to get past a post in the ground that they could have gotten passed by just playing the damn game like they normally would, instead of badgering it like a ram trying to find. . .er, whatever it is that ram's like to ram into for. Hookers and booze? I'unno.

Fi is another interesting complaint I hear about because whenever I hear about it I can always recognize the people with insufferable Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It's actually a very rare moment when Fi interrupts the gameplay in any significant way due to her text dialogues popping up almost exclusively when you enter into a new area from a doorway or during conversation scenes where you're already engaged in a scene you can't break away from regardless, so the only REAL time Fi has to interrupt anything that you might be in the middle of would be with her message about the low battery or the low heart gauge, and both of those you can completely ignore and will go away after roughly five seconds if you so choose to. In fact a lot of her non-conversational scenes require input from the player to even activate and it makes me wonder how any of these people got through ocarina of time or even could possibly say that they liked Navi more than Fi because Navi's chime is a lot more in your face with "HEY! LISTEN TO ME! I'M IMPORTANT! LINK! HURRY UP! C'MON! TALK TO ME!", with Fi being more like a simple chiming effect that you might not even notice in the heat of heavy battle (assuming you aren't stuck on the controls and simply trying to cheese your way around everything in an attempt to avoid actually learning to play the game), like elevator music, or soothing wind-chimes, it's completely possible to ignore it and continue on, but for whatever reason, these people lack that innate ability to ignore being pestered, and I fear for the day when these same people have children and have to respond to every instance of "DAADDDY" even when they know that it's not going to be anything important enough to turn away from their work for.

Lastly, and this is on a more personal note, I come here to be trolled, Mr. "I hate everything because it's funnier that way" Yahtzee. I enjoy coming here every week and leaving in blind seething rage much like a Stockholm's syndrome kidnappee princess peach enjoys being kidnapped by a fire breathing dragon-turtle on a daily basis, but this time I'm deeply disappointed in you, not for your choice of game or words or even your childish antiques of turning this whole Skyward Sword thing into a huge debate, but because frankly your arguments about the game are lukewarm at best and you end it by saying "this is the worst Zelda I've ever played" complete with graph and chart like you scientifically calculated your hate for this in the scale that computer AI uses in that one horror story which has a long name and involves screaming when one can't. I saw Skyward Sword and was ready to be brought to tears as you thoroughly thrashed what's been one of the best Zelda titles to the date of the franchise, but all I got instead was a severe case of the "That's it?". Any of these arguments can simply be brought down by the fact that you obviously purposely tried NOT to enjoy this game, and right-o you clever wanker, you succeeded. You've successfully forced yourself to play through the entirety of a game you didn't like (or pretended not to like) for the sake of cheap laughs and because you felt you had to for your imaginary friends on the internet. I'd give you a gold medal, but they don't pass those out at the special Olympics.
 

I forgot

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Kaulen Fuhs said:
I forgot said:
Yahtzee resorting to middle school antics with "if I don't gush it with praise, zelda's fanboy army will attack me" is really fucking pathetic. Use your brain for a minute. People aren't mad because you "pointed out a flaw" but because it's actually horseshit that isn't really a flaw, one you contrive or one you don't explain. You've been doing this for how long and you can't accept criticism yourself?
Except, wonder of wonders, he was actually right.

Zelda fanboys aren't attacking him because he pointed out flaws; that much is true. They are attacking him because he expressed a negative opinion of a game they liked.

For example, I've seen someone outright state that they cannot handle the fact that someone doesn't like a game they like (in reference to Zelda: SS), and that was why they were so upset.
No, he isn't. That isn't something you can say he's "right" because you saw one guy say it and it's not hard to imagine that many don't like the review because of what I already said in my first post. Not everyone that dissmissed the review is a "fanboy"; it's an abstract argument but that much is just common fucking sense.
 

stinkyrobot

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ilovemyLunchbox said:
Here's an eye-opener... Without googling it, what was the name of the final boss?

Go ahead and lie and say you remember after having googled it, but you know and I both know you don't remember a damn thing.

A Zelda game where you can't remember who the last boss was... Awful.
His name is Demise. I didn't google it and I admit that as far as villains go even for zelda games he's bland, but his name is FUCKING DEMISE! That's not something forgettable.
 

Mamzelle_Kat

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This article pretty much sums up why I wasn't sad to let my Wii go despite knowing a new Zelda title was in the making. I mean, I've played SO many Zelda titles in my life I just think I'm burned out! When I play a newer one all I'm wondering is whether I'll go to the Forest, Fire or Water dungeon first, at what point in the game I'm going to get the hookshot, bow, bombs and better shield, and while I completely understand the idea of having 'legacy items' in a game, I think I'm tired of these specific elements. They did try to make it more appealing by introducing something new with the array of motion-controlled items, but it just wasn't enough to make me want to play it.

In fact, the Zelda titles I enjoyed the most were Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time. To me, once you've played OoT or ALttP, you've pretty much seen them all. Only MM and WW made me think that I really was playing a new game.
 

Emz

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I enjoy Zelda games but I was slightly disappointed by Skyward Sword for a few reasons.

I enjoy the art style (minus Link's weird face) but I definitely agree with the terrible motion controls. All the times I have got annoyed so far with the game have been when the controls have reacted too late and resulted in Link doing something stupid. What is worse is they intend to keep the control scheme for the next game I recall reading somewhere.

The lack of opportunity to explore is also a huge set back making the game feel very "guided". I cannot just go out and explore and marvel at the diverse scenery. I think Majoras Mask is a good contender for interesting level and world design. Same for Wind Waker too minus most of the islands were pretty useless (a problem inherited by Skyward Sword, which was a shame.)

I'm a huge Zelda fangirl but I do agree with you Yahtzee. Not all fanboys/fangirls of the franchise are like the picture you're painting in the article. Some of us definitely agree with you.
 

Hal10k

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Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
 

Mahoshonen

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It's quite revealing that those defending the controllers are resorting to attacking the mental capacities of those who dislike them.

Apparently some fans "get" the wii controls and some don't. That's fine. I think they are wonky, but my friend believes they are fun. This is using the same controller, for the same system, in the same room. We didn't argue the point further because it was trivial.

People are different. I know this sounds like a copout argument, and pleading for civility in an internet forum is like trying to hold a peace accord in Mogadishu. But I think its important. It's not just how well people can use it, its also the standard that they hold it to.

However, I do feel that a company that wants to market itself as having mass appeal should ask some serious questions when it turns out a significant percentage of the target market feels the controller is bad. Their complaints won't go away no matter how many times you tell them they must have Multiple sclerosis. Either you accept that your controller doesn't appeal to everyone or improve the controller.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

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Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Yahtzee himself mentioned in the article that he is bias against motion controls...but then he covered that up by saying it's just because he was bias against things that weren't fun.

See, he defeated the purpose of admitting bias by then trying to present his personal feelings as absolute facts. After that statement, if you don't think that he in particular is irrationally bias and prone to ignore objectivity, then I don't know what to say. The article also herds together anyone who thinks positively of the game into a big group of fanboys who ignore objective flaws, even though that's logically untrue.
 

Hal10k

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Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Hal10k said:
Mr. Fahrenheit said:
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with a negative opinion about a Zelda game is a fanboy?
Why is it that anyone who offers a negative opinion of a Zelda game is unfairly biased?
Yahtzee himself mentioned in the article that he is bias against motion controls...but then he covered that up by saying it's just because he was bias against things that weren't fun.

See, he defeated the purpose of admitting bias by then trying to present his personal feelings as absolute facts. After that statement, if you don't think that he in particular is irrationally bias and prone to ignore objectivity, then I don't know what to say. The article also herds together anyone who thinks positively of the game into a big group of fanboys who ignore objective flaws, even though that's logically untrue.
Look, of course he's biased. I'm just going to repost what I wrote on the video thread instead of rewriting my opinion on this:

Whether or not you agree with his criticisms is subjective, of course. But don't disregard him just because he's biased. We're all biased in one way or another; that's one of the downsides of actually possessing a long-term memory in conjunction with the capacity for logical reasoning. Yahtzee's opinion is biased because he dislikes the Wii. The argument you made is biased because you disliked Yahtzee's review. The argument I'm making right now is biased because I'm really uptight about semantics for some reason. If you want a genuinely unbiased review of a game, I'd suggest rolling a ten-sided die.
There's no such thing as being "unfairly biased". And as for "ignoring objectivity"- you do realize that whether or not you enjoy a game is the polar opposite of objectivity, right?