Smacking Your Child.

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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I don't normally condone it, but I understand that it might be warranted in extreme situations.
So my friend used to work at gamestop. There was this kid who stole from his parents in order to buy games. The parents couldn't afford rent because of this, but couldn't get a cash refund due to not having receipts. I'd say that's an extreme enough situation to warrant that.
 

WarpedMind

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lacktheknack said:
WarpedMind said:
Anecdotes are underrated. I'm not going to ignore everything I learned in my own meatspace because it's not scientifically rigorous.

For my own education, could you please link these studies? Everyone references them, but no one can even tell me what methods were used.

(Also, the definition of violence involves intent to notably hurt or damage something. If the spanking can fit that definition, you're doing it too hard. A mild sting that goes away within seconds? I don't call that violence. Unless you're telling me that poking someone annoying with a stick is now a violent act.)
"Anecdotes are underrated"

I think you'll find that the exact opposite is true, especially as it pertains to general public opinion.
The average person is much more likely to be convinced of something by a well told anecdote than by actual data, despite anecdotes being inherently unreliable.

"could you please link these studies?"

I'll start off just quoting myself from an earlier post.

WarpedMind said:
Sources:
This video presents all the data I'm talking about in an easily digestible format: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg
Studies and other academic sources are in a link in the video description.
Also relevant; here is an interview with a developmental psychologist who has performed a meta-study of all studies done on the effects of spanking over the past 64 years https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kFBOeqZbjs her conclusion is that all current evidence points towards spanking having an immensely negative impact upon virtually all aspects of the spanked children's lives.
Also, since a few links in the sources of the first video seem to have become broken since it was published, here's a few more:

Spanking increases aggression: http://tulane.edu/news/releases/pr_03122010.cfm
Spanking doesn't work as a disciplinary tool and has no positive outcomes: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213411000512
Spanking increases lying and other anti-social behavior: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2011.01663.x/abstract
Spanking lowers cognitive ability and physically alters brain chemistry in detrimental ways: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP51.pdf http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/5/e1057.short
Spanking increases learning difficulty: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/10/16/peds.2013-1227

I recommend the video though, it's quite comprehensive.
 

Luminous_Umbra

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Sep 25, 2011
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My thoughts on the striking of children are pretty simple:

If you strike the child believing it will get the child to stop doing something/punish them for a past action, you have failed as a parent in that instance. There are countless different ways to approach the issue and you have gone for one of the worst. Bravo.

If striking the child is in fact the best way to stop the child, then you have failed as a parent in the past, because you let it get this bad. A child does not spontaneously or without cause get to the point where they need to be struck to discipline them.
 

viscomica

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Personally, I have been smacked and between smacking and being punished without tv, access to a computer and going out, I think the latter worked better (when I was a ten year old I remember I insulted my mom for some stupid thing and she punished me without doing "anything considered fun". I don't know how she managed to do that, but it worked waaaaay better than smacking)
 

BeerTent

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May 8, 2011
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WarpedMind said:
BeerTent said:
Oh my fucking god this spanking thing.[...]
Emotional anecdotes, false equivalence and borderline psychotic rambling about "pecking order" and comparing children to animals.

F-
The name amuses me.

I dunno, it bothers me. I feel like we're in this age of coddling and "No child can do wrong." "No child left behind." and "Failure doesn't exist." We're all animals here, and until the child learns the social order, it's just like one of the other pets. Then again, you could be right about me, and I'd make an awful parent. Kids were never my forte. I did ramble. And I probably said some pretty wrong comparisons there.

Let me just take a look at your vi-wait... That name's familiar. Stefan Molyneux? I've heard that from somewhere, and I need more time to look into it, but I'm pretty sure this FDR thing he's doing is kind of messed up. Not just because I disagree with him, but I've talked to someone who watches him. Isn't this the guy that also says that there's no such thing as a mental illness? And that Women are "the source of evil?" You're taking advice from this ************? I'm too lazy to look into it much further, but after an iota of digging, I'm finding some things that hint to what I've heard.

I'm really freaking iffy on that. Let's leave it there.

The Tulane university one is talking about spanking a child at the age of three, which even for my hateful "Psychotic" standards is insane. I'm talking about striking the thing after the age of 5. And sparsely at best to make a point. Of course you're going to fuck a child up by spanking it frequently as early as three years of age. This is Humanity 101, and you need a study to prove that? I'm nice enough to give you a C on that one.

The Science Direct article has nothing to do about spanking, just weather or not children can understand what abuse actually is, and if those children believe that they can come out. In HK, their culture dictates modesty and loyalty. The children have very differing views on what abuse is, but is unlikely to report it because of the strong belief, which is very likely shared across multiple cultures, that the parent can do no wrong, and that it is infallible. We all have that discovery that your Mother isn't omnipotent when we're around that age.

Bear in mind that we also need to factor in differences in culture. Chinese culture is extremely different from say, British or Canadian culture. Hell, the Americans have a different culture than us up here. This does affect children at an extremely young age, as they're receptive to the behavior of others when they're as young as 6 months old.

Spanking increases lying... I need to pay for that? Let's skimp the abstract. Children learn around this age that grown-ups are not infallible. This is an natural response at this age. Can we avoid a punishment if we lie? Yes? Fuckin' do it! Congratulations. Children can reason. Who knew?

When I'm talking about all of this stuff, I'm interested in the end goal. We do something thats morally gray now, to ensure that 20 years into the future our child isn't a shit-head who thinks they can do no wrong. I'm not paying for a research paper. It's probably a good one, but I have more important things to pay for.

I'm on the PDF now, and although it's a '09 study, it looks like it was scanned in the 80's. I'm coming to the realization that I think you're more concerned about a specific time. These studies, to me, talk about excessive use of spanking. Knocked over my glass and it shattered? That's a'spankin'. Turned on the TV? That's a'spankin'. Late for curfew? That's a'spankin'. Don't like trains? That's a'spankin'. Shit like that? Of course that's going to cause problems for the child. I love to joke and bash children, say they're stupid, they shit everywhere, steal money, etc, etc... But the truth is that children are actually really receptive to their surroundings. They need to be, because the parent needs to show and teach the child what life is going to be like. A parent needs to explain to the child when things are wrong, and parents do need to take disciplinary action to condition the child that doing something seriously wrong, has serious consequences. As a moderately reasonable Tent (Shocking, I know.) when I talk about spanking, I'm not talking about mercilessly beating the child at the ages between 2-4. I'm talking about a severe corrective measure after the age of 5-6. You walked out on the road without checking and almost got run over? You bet your ass it's gonna be red. You knocked over my glass of pop? Whoop de do, let's clean it up together. These things happen when you're not careful, and maybe later you'll choose what we replace it with.

I'd never say I'd be a good parent. I'd be awful. But I like to think that I have a good idea what it's like to be a dip-shit 5 year old.
 

Cold Shiny

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This is the pure truth, I was a horrible, terrible child when I was little. I was rude, angry, a screamer, and I lied all the time. My parents spanked me every day. And every time my dad spanked me, he immediately hugged me a told me it hurt him a lot too. Now I'm a well adjusted contributor to society with a lot of patience. Guess what happened to all those kids whose parents never spanked them? They grew up to be malicious, self entitled morons who believe they can do no wrong. These events are facts, not opinions.
 

Alarien

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Feb 9, 2010
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I am guessing that a lot of people in this thread aren't parents. No offense to anyone, especially those that are, but just an observation. If you aren't a parent, your perspective might (probably will) change on this after you have to deal with your own.

The question is not one that can be answered by rules, laws, or society. Obviously, some level of corporal punishment (probably a great deal) rises to the level of abuse, and should, of course, be outlawed and punished.

That said, no two children are exactly alike in how they behave or what motivates them and it is entirely the responsibility of the parents to do their best in helping the child adjust to acceptable levels of behavior, respect, and education. Using what the child is motivated by to enforce structure and rules, resulting in healthy behaviors can, in some cases, resort to appropriate levels of corporal punishment.

My parents used spanking, to an extent. This worked, also to an extent, on my sister, who was otherwise unmotivated by guilt, reason, or privileges. I am unmotivated by pain, but I was motivated by guilt. Spanking didn't generally work on me (though, unlike my sister, I had self-control and rarely warranted much punishment), privileges/grounding had no effect on me (I easily found ways to entertain myself despite attempting to ground me from things like TV, playing outside, playing with toys, etc... being an avid reader as a child is great... no intelligent parent grounds their kinds from reading, only psychopaths do that). On the other hand, my father was a master of calm, reason-based guilt, which I found highly motivating.

With my daughter, we have tried several privileges and time out techniques. She is obnoxiously strong willed, like her parents, and, from her mother, she has inherited the ability to throw epic level tantrums. Generally, the threat of losing privileges can have some effect, but when her emotions spiral out of control, no amount of reason will convince her to calm down or behave appropriately.

I know some parents deal with tantrums by taking the "ignore them or send them to their room and they'll eventually calm down or sort themselves out, they are looking for attention" route. I heartily disagree with this. I honestly believe that self-control is, at least partially, a learned and socialized behavior (I think Freud agrees with me on that), and I think allowing children to spiral out of control and put on a fit actually negatively reinforces their lack of emotional control and leads to serious social dysfunction later, including a feeling that their opinion/belief/wants are more important that consideration for those around them.

To snap my daughter out of it, I use a small amount of corporal punishment (read as: I use tiny stings of pain). I don't "spank." I don't hit her on the butt, legs, face, etc. I very calmly and dispassionately (extremely important, never ever touch a child (or pet, particularly dogs) in anger) take her wrist and with two fingers smack the back of her hand. I do it just enough to sting, maybe turn her skin pink for about a minute, but never more than that. A bruise would be disgraceful on my part.

The reason I do this is because pain can result in some good physiological effects (read some studies or, if you want the more fun route, watch the Mythbusters build team slap each other), such as adrenaline release. I have studied her face as I do this and it's enlightening to watch a single smack to the hand result in some instant effects: dilated pupils narrow, breathing slows down and gets deeper, focus increases. I've watched my kid go from a full on wild tantrum to completely calm and controlled in the space of 15 seconds. I don't think I've ever had to repeat this punishment for the same episode.

It's important to note that this is one of my last resorts and it's a very rare occurrence. She's 4 now and I didn't do it until she was at least 2 and have rarely gone less than 3-4 months between occurrences; generally other threats/punishments work just fine. Also, the incidence is decreasing as she gets older and other more traditional threats of loss of privilege and reason are starting to have an effect.

A lot of people in this thread have stated something to the effect that it is not legal to smack an adult. The comparison is completely unwarranted. Apples and oranges as people say. Children are not adults. First off, adults are rarely under the care and legal guardianship of someone else. Once you're an adult, no one is responsible for helping you adapt to society. Presumably, you are old enough and developed enough to do take that responsibility on yourself. Second, children do not have the mental and emotional development of adults. Children are walking balls of id at young ages. They are, in many ways, tiny little sociopaths that have no real concept of conscience or empathy. These are things that develop over time in normal people. In order to help curb bad behaviors in children that lack reason, empathy, and conscience, punishments sometimes have to appeal to id. A small amount of dispassionately applied pain in the right situation may occasionally be called for.

Again, it's important for parents to understand their individual child before determining the right way to encourage and punish behaviors. Not all kids will respond to corporal punishment, while some will only respond to it.

Making outright rules about a time tested technique for society at large misunderstands the individuality and developmental level of children and is counter-productive. There are rules against abuse already and anything that rises to the level of abuse should be swiftly identified and harshly punished. However, in the right circumstances a tempered and controlled smack is not abuse.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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I'm completely anti-smacking. It's not necessary at all and I believe it's harmful to the development of children.

You aren't allowed to hit another adult, you aren't allowed to hit your animals, why on earth would you think it's okay to hit a person much smaller than you who is completely dependant on you? It's not.

All smacking teaches a child is that if someone doesn't do what you want and you're bigger than them, hit them.

I've worked with kids for quite a bit previously, and have lots of experience with children, and I know it can be extremely frustrating at times. That is no excuse, you are the adult.
/rant over
 

soren7550

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Dec 18, 2008
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Souplex said:
I don't normally condone it, but I understand that it might be warranted in extreme situations.
So my friend used to work at gamestop. There was this kid who stole from his parents in order to buy games. The parents couldn't afford rent because of this, but couldn't get a cash refund due to not having receipts. I'd say that's an extreme enough situation to warrant that.
They had the receipts, but they were past the point for a cash refund, and the kid had disposed of the cases they came in (I think he also bought a DS with their rent money). The best my boss could offer them was something like less than a hundred bucks in store credit, which naturally the father didn't want. What made the father madder was that he had to take a day off work to deal with this, and the argument between him, my boss, and the kid went on for 20 minutes. That kid certainly got his ass beat when they got home.

If you're going to tell my stories, please try to get more of it right, or at least ask me about the details, 'kay? :)

OT: Conceptually, I'm against it due to the whole 'the parent is likely much huger and stronger than the child, and probably has some issues when they think beating a child is the best course of action', but then again, I've come across a bunch of kids where I thought they needed a few good smacks, so I guess I'm a monster.
 

Alarien

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Phasmal said:
I'm completely anti-smacking. It's not necessary at all and I believe it's harmful to the development of children.

You aren't allowed to hit another adult, you aren't allowed to hit your animals, why on earth would you think it's okay to hit a person much smaller than you who is completely dependant on you? It's not.

All smacking teaches a child is that if someone doesn't do what you want and you're bigger than them, hit them.

I've worked with kids for quite a bit previously, and have lots of experience with children, and I know it can be extremely frustrating at times. That is no excuse, you are the adult.
/rant over
Working with and having experience with children is not remotely similar to being a parent and understanding your individual child. There is a significant difference between working with children and raising a child. One puts the responsibility for development entirely on your shoulders while the responsibility of the other is, at best, extremely limited.

Many, many, of us born before the 1980's experienced spanking, smacks, or other forms of punishment. It was normal, accepted, and did not lead to poorly adjusted children or adults. While I've been in fights in my life, I have never once instigated or started a fight, bullied a person, or hit someone in anger. The only time I've struck another person is in response to them attacking me first. So, the entire idea that "all smacking teaches a child..." is completely erroneous.

What you are likely correct on, and referring to, is physical and emotional abuse. Those who are abused are more likely to use physical abuse on others. That is certainly true and many of us grew up knowing people with abusive parents, which often resulted in physically or emotionally abusive children.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Alarien said:
Working with and having experience with children is not remotely similar to being a parent and understanding your individual child. There is a significant difference between working with children and raising a child. One puts the responsibility for development entirely on your shoulders while other responsibility of the other is, at best, extremely limited.

Many, many, of us born before the 1980's experienced spanking, smacks, or other forms of punishment. It was normal, accepted, and did not lead to poorly adjusted children or adults. While I've been in fights in my left, I have never once instigated or started a fight, bullied a person, or hit someone in anger. The only time I've struck another person is in response to them attacking me first. So, the entire idea that "all smacking teaches a child..." is completely erroneous.

What you are likely correct on, and referring to, is physical and emotional abuse. Those who are abused are more likely to use physical abuse on others. That is certainly true and many of us grew up knowing people with abusive parents, which often resulted in physically or emotionally abusive children.
I get that it's not the same as being a parent (I didn't say it was), just that I understood raising a child was difficult.
And I probably shouldn't have put `all` but I do think it's an aspect.

I'll just agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I don't think smacking is acceptable. As I said, I wouldn't hit my friends, I wouldn't hit an animal, why would I hit a child?

I understand that parenting is extremely stressful for some people, which is why I'm of the opinion that we should be teaching more about child development/parenting skills in school, but there are other ways to discipline kids.
 

Alarien

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Phasmal said:
I think your comments are fair here. I understand why people can be generally against it, but the first post painted people who would disagree with you into a specific corner, which is why I came out strongly against it.

I think I explained my thought process in my earlier post to answer some of the questions you raise, though. Even though I use corporal punishment, I don't use it as a punishment for after the fact behavior and, personally, I generally disagree with that usage. If, as some people have mentioned, you use spanking for something that has already occurred, I don't generally see the benefit. Honest discussion about implications, feelings (with liberally applied guilting), and privilege restriction will generally do the job, I think. Though, I admit that I can't speak to every child out there. Some kids may still only respond to spanking as a punishment, which is why I hesitate to generalize on it's usage entirely.

I only use it as an attention getter during a complete emotional meltdown/tantrum. I use it as an instant adrenaline check to get her focus to sharpen and on me, and then I use that to get her to look me in the eyes and slowly match breath until she calms down. It has worked very, very well at that.

It's fine to agree to disagree, though. If you do have kids, it's no one's place to tell you what you should do to raise yours. You figure that out for yourself.
 

Little Woodsman

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Wish I had more time to talk about this-- but I don't so in brief:

I've never had to physically discipline my child. A stern talking to on a couple of occasions is the closest to punishment I've ever had to use. Reasoning and explaining the "why" behind a rule or why we do things a certain way or why certain things just aren't done has always worked wonderfully for her.

However, it varies greatly by individual child. I've seen some cases where a small amount of physical discipline (smack on the wrist or spanking) was appropriate, and worked. (In one particular case I saw it stop a child from doing something dangerous, so definitely preferable to the child actually injuring himself.)

But I do think that physical discipline is often over-used, used incorrectly or is too severe. You have to work with your child to see what the best course is for him/her.
 

pearcinator

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As a teacher I can tell you that some kids just need a smack.

Smacking never hurt anyone and it lets the child know that they did the wrong thing. I don't think the cane is necessary but a slap on the bum doesn't do any damage. At school, kids hit each other way worse than a little smack. Some kids get away with too much nowadays and have lost the ability to respect others.
 

ecoho

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Worgen said:
Redryhno said:
Worgen said:
Really all hitting a kid does is make you feel better. Because who doesn't want to hit a kid?
I've always been in the "shoot 'em or run the fuck away" camp myself. Absolutely terrified of kids, to the point I start thinking about looking for a new place to shop when I see one.

I could've been a REALLY fucking annoying kid, but you learn when you're held down for an hour that you probably shouldn't be acting that way, gets in the way of your own fun. So yeah, I'm all for smacking a kid, I'm all for smacking an adult when they're being pricks as well. Gets 'em ready for when the schoolyard comes into play too(which it will, for everyone at some point there was that one asshole that wouldn't leave you alone).

I mean, what is the alternative, constantly negotiate with a screaming brat? Letting them get their way every time? Allow them to cry themselves out? Sorry, but if they're going to cry, I'm either going to help them cut peppers without gloves and not tell them to rinse their hands, or do something for them to realize that doing that for no good reason is a detriment to them in some form. Whether that's pulling their ears, hitting their butts with a light cutting board, or just tying them to their beds and telling them they'd better get acquainted with their imaginations, because I'm not going to be talking to them while I sit in the corner for an hour with earplugs in.

Edit: reading this again, it wasn't clear that I was joking on most of this, but my basic feelings I think are plain.
Hitting will have an effect once or twice, maybe. But more than that and your just showing the kid the limit and teaching them that its not only alright to hit those smaller than them, but feels good too. Still though, even "having" to do it once means somethings gone wrong, you've already fucked something up.
let me tell you if you do the first spanking right the threat of receiving another is more then enough to keep you in line. Now I don't support abusing your child that's wrong but smacking a child and saying "No!" to them is not the same thing neither is spanking your child. A good parent is both loved and feared by their child.
 

Parasondox

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pearcinator said:
As a teacher I can tell you that some kids just need a smack.

Smacking never hurt anyone and it lets the child know that they did the wrong thing. I don't think the cane is necessary but a slap on the bum doesn't do any damage. At school, kids hit each other way worse than a little smack. Some kids get away with too much nowadays and have lost the ability to respect others.
I don't exactly where you are from but as a teacher, do you think it's more harder to punish unruly kids today compared to, lets say, 10 years ago due to parents who will defend their child no matter what? Or do you think it's still the same. Once again I do not know where you are based and how long you have been a teacher before. I'm mostly thinking of it as a UK prospective.

PS. Please do not grade my grammar. It's bad I know lol
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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As a kid i got smacked and spanked a fair bit. I pretty much earned it, i was out of control, a smart mouth and generally a little gobshite. Mostly with a slipper on the thigh, other times on the butt, usually with a hand or a slipper. Hard enough to hurt and redden the skin but not to leave lasting marks. What it taught me was actions have (painful) consequences. It didn't cure me of bad behavior but it sure taught me to think before i did something bad.

As an Adult i think i'm pretty well balanced, I work and have a pretty good life and get on well with people in general. I guess i have a bit of a spanking fetish, though whether or not that has anything to do with my childhood i have no idea. So in my personal experience it was a good thing...when i was told off i didn't listen, when i had my stuff taken from me i stole it back, when i was spanked i went to my room, cried and decided maybe i wouldn't try that particular piece of mischief again.
 

asinann

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Some kids need a smacked now and then, but it should never be the first reaction.
 

Drops a Sweet Katana

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I was never smacked (so far as I can remember) as a child outside of a playful swat upside the head from my dad when we joked around. For me, scolding and taking away certain privileges were plenty to keep me in line. I was a fairly calm and mild-mannered kid, so they worked well on me. I'm not a parent (yet), but I would never see myself resorting to physical punishment as discipline without a damn good reason and an explanation to my kid as to why I did it. For some kids, a physical deterrent may be what's needed to reinforce right and wrong, but I think things like that warrant an explanation to the child.