Well, when I tell people I never want to have kids the usual reaction is for whoever's talking to me to stare as though I've just said 'I want to rip out foetuses from other women and eat them'. Seriously society, why u so backwards?
Now that is just selfish too thoughRegnes said:I only skimmed your post, but it's selfish because you are jeopardizing the economy and stability of your country by refusing to have children. Every couple must produce at least two children on average to sustain your population
This is wrong. Something isn't selfish simply because it's what you want, for example if someone went to a cinema you wouldn't say they were selfish if they went to see a film they wanted to see instead of one they didn't. An action (or in this case lack of action) is only selfish if it's detrimental to other people as well as what they want. So regardless of your reasons for not having kids it's only selfish if it harms others. Which is ridiculous despite the idiotic claims made by some people in this thread not having childeren is not detrimental to society, if anything the opposite is true.KingsGambit said:How this relates to selfishness and having kids? Selfishness we defined as caring only for ourselves...you want a better education, a better career, better finances, none of the burdens of parenthood, freedom to travel, play the field, party all night, whatever. That is selfish. This is not an insult or using the word in a pejorative sense. It *is* dictionary definition selfish and it's absolutely true that many, many more people are now much more selfish. I have a few friends who can't/couldn't wait to have babies and settle down and alarmingly an almost equal number who "never want to have kids" because they value what they have now more than the perceived/actual joys/burdens of parenthood, childbirth, etc.
So your argument is that having people who don't want kids to raise children will be beneficial to society and the economy? Why don't we leave that to the people that actually WANT children and therefore will actually raise them properly, give them the childhood and nurture they deserve, so they will one day become a productive part of our society. It's no use bringing up a whole generation of children with daddy and mommy issues, who don't want to work and are in general not nice people.octafish said:snippity snip snip
So what's your reasoning for wanting to adopt, may I ask? It seems strange that you're painting it as a futile act whilst also mulling it over yourself.Monoochrom said:The proper answer here is ''Sucks to be you kid.''AngloDoom said:Monoochrom said:-SNIPWow, you're very aggressive, huh?So? Your point? Seriously, what the fuck is your point. It's a person, great, doesn't mean I or the majority of the rest of the world has any reason to give a shit. The biological parents shouldn't have made it, doesn't make it my problem.
Anyway, here's me butting in =D
"The biological parents shouldn't have made it"? What does that even mean? What if the parents died? Should they not have had a child in case they got hit by a drunk-driver?
I should clarify that I am specifically thinking about adopting african kids while writing this, I probably should have mentioned that. In the africa the problem can be summed up to them fucking and not knowing any better.
The entire point however isn't the circumstance of the child, the point is ''That doesn't mean anybody cares''.
Because kids who aren't adopted never suffer violence in their own household, never get ill, and are always totally well-grounded and healthy. That's why all the weirdos are adopted, amirite?Because they're only damaged insofar as they don't have parents.
HA HA HA HA HA HA
No. You don't really believe that, do you? You really think that them not having parents does nothing to them? Or that they aren't up for adoption for entirely different reasons, such as having been removed from a Household? What about Diseases?
Look, I know 'strawman' is a lovely term someone on the Escapist used many moons ago, but it's not a sacred 'protect all' term. I did not misrepresent your side of the argument - I used the oppositions you are comparing (biological parenting/adoption) and basically asked you to explain why one is worse off than the other. Having a child biologically does not make the kid less likely to be ill or have better-grounded parents - otherwise the children wouldn't be up for adoption in the first place.Nice Strawman. Try again.
Agreed, no argument there.Because you're actively improving someone's life.
When I want a kid I'm not looking to improve the life of someone pre-existing, I'm looking to improve my own.
Huzzah.
Well, I certainly am thinking about it rather than having my own child. Why, you may ask? Because I'd rather not produce another privileged white middle-class child when I could, with a little more/less difficulty (depending on where you stand) improve another child's life. I want to improve my own life, definitely, but why not make myself feel better about helping out someone in need too while I'm at it?Because your own genes mean that maybe having children isn't the greatest idea when adoption is viable.
You don't get to leave the constraints of the question. Very simple situation, your own children are a perfectly viable option. No reason to adopt some random kid, all it does is cause problems.
This is all a theoretical debate, knocking my argument aside because I haven't adopted a child is just silly. It seems you haven't adopted a child and considering your rather perplexing viewpoint on the matter you seem less likely to adopt than I am. Does this mean I've 'won' the debate? No, of course not. The whole thing is irrelevant.No reason not too. Come back when you've actually done it, cause I doubt you will. Also, the kid sure is looking at a loving future when your entire motivation is ''White guilt''. What about white kids that are in need of adopting? Fuck them?
Really? 'Cus I've grown up with women saying "IT'S THE MOST PAINFUL THING IN THE ENTIRE WIDE WORLD". Why would you not avoid that if you could?Because maybe some people don't want to go through the physical trauma of giving birth when they don't have to.
Doesn't seem like a good reason to me, but whatever I'll let you have that.
Probably not, but "child without pain" sounds a sweeter deal than "child with agonising pain".I'm not a woman either. I however doubt that it is the most painful thing ever.
Unfortunately, that's not how it works. That individual came up with a claim, it is up to you (as the current champion of the opposite side of the argument) to disprove it. I'd be interested to know where you're getting this information from too.Because blood-ties, ethnicity, and love don't have to have anything to do with one another, and any reasonable couple and their reasonable adopted kid can probably find a way to see that.
Look it up, you'll find that you are wrong.
Well regardless of whether or not I'm your "fucking teacher", here:The burden of proof lies with the one making a claim. Also, I'm not your fucking teacher, look it up yourself.
To what degree, though? How far can you prove this? I can just counter with 'No it doesn't' and we're no further into a decent discussion. Why does it? How can we see these effects in adopted children? What about if I had a wife who was unfaithful, had the child, but I was unaware? Would my nature-sense kick in and I could tell the kid wasn't mine because I couldn't feel quite so comfortable walking around my own house naked or something? That sounds rather silly, if you ask me.Hell, my relationship with my parents has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to have the same genes as them,
Yes, it does.
Of course, there are definitely going to be some differences when adopting a child rather than having a 'natural' child, however the study I've provided actually seems to find that the children who are adopted are actually "more likely to have certain of these positive experiences than are children in the general population". (From the source)Yes, as to my knowledge it actually would. Until ofcourse you see that the baby is green, you might start asking questions at that point.
Also, I didn't say it's the end all be all, just that it is simply wrong to claim that it doesn't matter at all. And once more, I don't have the burden of proof.
In your mind, no, and we're fortunate enough as a species not to be one hive-mind, but hey let's go through your points:except when my dad projects on me and erroneously interprets personality quirks as OCD.
There's plenty of reasons for adoption.
No, not really, the only reasons are:
Each to their own (ha) I guess. I personally find that a terrifying idea - that your partner, parents, siblings, and friends are all basically the same person.1. Being a Hive Mind would be awesome given our intellect as individuals.
They're broad to the point of having no purpose. You can't make an apparently exhaustive list ("the only reasons are") that says "It's either A or B, and if it's not A or B then it's definitely C."2. These are the only reasons because they are purposely broad, I can't go into the minor details in every single case.
What? Where the hell did you get this opinion from?I am already insanely rich and this is very much like getting a souvenir
Jolie isn't the ambassador for humans. She's a woman with insane amounts of money living in a certain, special, privileged position. Drawing conclusions to her and other people is like saying "All women want black children, regardless of race."What else would you call what Jolie does?
Wait, let me check that again:I can't have children of my own and other more natural options either also do not work or do not appeal to me.
So a valid reason, in your words, is that having a kid 'naturally' does not appeal?more natural options either also do not work or do not appeal to me.
Didn't you just explode your own argument?
My mistake, then. I think. From what you're arguing, it seems you'd suggest it'd be more beneficial if the child was connected to at least one parent, but hey.Except that I said MORE naturally, not naturally. Remember, Adoption is something pairs do. I could find it understandable if one partner were sterile and thus both partner would rather adopt then use sperm donations or what not. The idea being ''if it isn't OUR biological child, it is nobodies biological child''.
Except for the one's I've already given. I suppose that makes me "weird" for not thinking that having a child pop out of someone else's body with my hair and my eyes will make that kid any more special.Yes, weird because we don't all think the same as you. What a lovely safety-net you've deployed there to save you the effort of making any real point. If someone comes along and defeats your 'criteria' then the failsafe "You're weird" pops up and catches them before any real debate can get rolling. Well done, absolute genius.I'm just wierd like that.
Those are the only reasons.
No, you're doing exactly what I said you would: warping the meaning of 'weird' to suit your own agenda when necessary. It wouldn't have been hard to write "Are actually good people" but you gave us an amorphous blob of an argument that would change with any opposition.No, you are wierd for your white guilt reasoning. All I ever meant by wierd was the exception to the rule that would actually adopt out of the goodness of their heart. I have to atleast acknowledge that they exist, no matter how few they are, don't I?
Again you are misunderstanding the word selfish in this context. It is commonly used enough in the negative sense that I can understand where you're coming from, but selfishness means putting ones own needs, desires etc first, before those of others but does not in itself imply any harm to others, directly or indirectly.Axolotl said:An action (or in this case lack of action) is only selfish if it's detrimental to other people as well as what they want. So regardless of your reasons for not having kids it's only selfish if it harms others. Which is ridiculous despite the idiotic claims made by some people in this thread not having childeren is not detrimental to society, if anything the opposite is true.
No one is debating that. The debate is whether or not choosing to not have any children is or isn't selfish. People have a right to choose whatever they wish. The point is that choosing not to have any is, under almost every circumstance, made for selfish reasons.Midgeamoo said:I don't see why everybody should have to have children if some people want to and others don't, it's not good to put people into situations they don't want, and it wouldn't be nice for the children either.
What? Sorry bro you are never going to convince me that someone not having kids is going to cause real problems. The planet as a whole is facing a very real risk of over population. We are creeping up on 7 billion people with with that number iincreasing faster then ever. If for same reason your countries becoming vacant because your people aren't making babies it is probably time to step up immigration programs cause there are more then enough people in the world.Regnes said:I only skimmed your post, but it's selfish because you are jeopardizing the economy and stability of your country by refusing to have children. Every couple must produce at least two children on average to sustain your population, but since there are factors such as early death, sterility, homosexuality inhibiting us, couple must produce above 2 children or the population will dwindle over the years. Then of course there's the fact that the ratio of boys to girls is not equal, so even more children need to be produced.
Lowering the national reproductive rates to below the par required for sustaining to population results in age demographic imbalances. China is famous for it's one child policy they introduced to help counter overpopulation. This has been disastrous because it actually worked to an extent and since people stopped producing enough children, the country's average age is very high compared to most countries, it's a big problem when your country mostly contains seniors for obvious reasons.
Canada's population is actually at risk because too many people don't feel it's worth their time to have kids. Personally I think the government needs to offer more incentives to parents. Sure you will have welfare bums who will only benefit further from this, but more good will come of it than bad I think.
Former Premiere of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell made the situation a little worse in 2010 with the introduction of the new tax system. Yeah, let's tax all children's clothing and goods, I'm sure more people will have kids if we do that.
I'll tell you what is selfish- caring about the needs of your country before the needs of the world, which is bound to begin suffering from the natural effects of overpopulation unless we take preemptive and unnatural steps to prevent it.Regnes said:I only skimmed your post, but it's selfish because you are jeopardizing the economy and stability of your country by refusing to have children. Every couple must produce at least two children on average to sustain your population, but since there are factors such as early death, sterility, homosexuality inhibiting us, couple must produce above 2 children or the population will dwindle over the years. Then of course there's the fact that the ratio of boys to girls is not equal, so even more children need to be produced.
Lowering the national reproductive rates to below the par required for sustaining to population results in age demographic imbalances. China is famous for it's one child policy they introduced to help counter overpopulation. This has been disastrous because it actually worked to an extent and since people stopped producing enough children, the country's average age is very high compared to most countries, it's a big problem when your country mostly contains seniors for obvious reasons.
Canada's population is actually at risk because too many people don't feel it's worth their time to have kids. Personally I think the government needs to offer more incentives to parents. Sure you will have welfare bums who will only benefit further from this, but more good will come of it than bad I think.
Former Premiere of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell made the situation a little worse in 2010 with the introduction of the new tax system. Yeah, let's tax all children's clothing and goods, I'm sure more people will have kids if we do that.
Yes it does.KingsGambit said:Again you are misunderstanding the word selfish in this context. It is commonly used enough in the negative sense that I can understand where you're coming from, but selfishness means putting ones own needs, desires etc first, before those of others but does not in itself imply any harm to others, directly or indirectly.Axolotl said:An action (or in this case lack of action) is only selfish if it's detrimental to other people as well as what they want. So regardless of your reasons for not having kids it's only selfish if it harms others. Which is ridiculous despite the idiotic claims made by some people in this thread not having childeren is not detrimental to society, if anything the opposite is true.
Italy and Japan, two of the largest economies in the world with some of the highest standards of living. That's hardly Children of Men is it?And not having children is *directly* and measurably harmful to society and the human race. It might on a tiny, tiny, tiny scale whose difference can't easily be quantified, but it is a difference. If one person chooses to be dictionary-definition selfish and forgo children, it might be small. If thousands of people do the same thing, this stuff happens:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115977-Not-Wanting-a-Girlfriend-is-a-Serious-Illness
http://www.beginningwithi.com/comments/2003/05/06/generation-gap-italys-ageing-population/
Going by certain estimates there will be 11 billion people on earth in 40 years, that's more than enough to carry both Italy and Japan's aging populations if need be.These two pages are examples of precisely what happens. Italy is genuinely facing a crisis of major proportions within the next 10 years and the article on the escapist says Japan will be following suit in 40 years.
Overcrowding is not because we have so many children. Overcrowding is because we just refuse to die for much much longer, than before.razer17 said:Considering the huge problem of overcrowding and dwindling natural resources, you could also claim that the opposite is true; that having 2 kids each is selfish. Having a child when you don't want one harms you, the child and possibly society as a whole if you don't raise it properly due to not wanting it.
And then there is the problem of the math. If every couple has 2 kids each, it isn't going to keep a stable rate of population, it will mean that the population steadily rises. Considering medical advances, the chance of becoming a great grandparent is increasing, and following the 2 kids rule, that makes 14 direct descendants alive at the same time.