so....Not having children=Selfish?

[Ledan]

I think that having more than one child is very selfish. The planet is already overpopulated and that's just you, who already had a child then gets another one for no real reason. It's not beneficial to anyone, except you and not really that either.

Adopting is kind of good I guess, but I wouldn't do it.

Um, but the country someone is living in may not be overpopulated. Looking at it on a global scale doesn't seem very productive. For instance in Japan they really could use more people having kids. Certain countries are overpopulated, others are not.

Yeah............................. Except that people in rich countries use a lot of the resources and adopting from overpopulated countries would still be better than getting more than one child.

Why would anyone go for damaged goods when they don't have to?

You're not the kind of person I want to discuss with.

I'm sorry, did I at any point give you reason to believe that I give a fuck what you want? Nope.

Why should anyone deal with the hasstle of not only adopting the kid, but then actually raising it?

You realize that you don't just have those feelings for any 1 child, matter of fact, relationsships shatter because the child or a parent do not build up a good relationship to one another.

Or how about that they will typically be another ethnicity entirely? Also a issue bound to cause complications.

Or that the kid could be coming from any given situation.

Seriously, it seriously is like saying ''Why won't anybody go for the damaged goods that are harder to get then the brand new stuff? herp derp''

Because the damaged goods you're talking about are people.

So? Your point? Seriously, what the fuck is your point. It's a person, great, doesn't mean I or the majority of the rest of the world has any reason to give a shit. The biological parents shouldn't have made it, doesn't make it my problem.

Because they're only damaged insofar as they don't have parents.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

No. You don't really believe that, do you? You really think that them not having parents does nothing to them? Or that they aren't up for adoption for entirely different reasons, such as having been removed from a Household? What about Diseases?

Because you're actively improving someone's life.

When I want a kid I'm not looking to improve the life of someone pre-existing, I'm looking to improve my own.

Because your own genes mean that maybe having children isn't the greatest idea when adoption is viable.

You don't get to leave the constraints of the question. Very simple situation, your own children are a perfectly viable option. No reason to adopt some random kid, all it does is cause problems.

Because maybe some people don't want to go through the physical trauma of giving birth when they don't have to.

Doesn't seem like a good reason to me, but whatever I'll let you have that.

Because blood-ties, ethnicity, and love don't have to have anything to do with one another, and any reasonable couple and their reasonable adopted kid can probably find a way to see that.

Look it up, you'll find that you are wrong.

Hell, my relationship with my parents has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to have the same genes as them,

Yes, it does.

except when my dad projects on me and erroneously interprets personality quirks as OCD.

There's plenty of reasons for adoption.

No, not really, the only reasons are:

I am already insanely rich and this is very much like getting a souvenir

I can't have children of my own and other more natural options either also do not work or do not appeal to me.

I'm just wierd like that.

Those are the only reasons.

Other reasons: I emphatize with this kid and want them to have a better life then they would otherwise have. (Source: Family I know adopted 3 kids while working in South Korea.)
I knew the parents of the orhpaned child, so I want to take care of them.

You seem like a closeminded and narcisistic person, with an inflated ego. What do you actually know to make you an authority on this subject? Have you studied adopted families, talked to them, seen how they live?

Close relationships with your parents has nothing to do with blood ties or ethnicity. If there were, then you could see that adopted families have far worse relations than "normal" families. But thats not true is it? There are blood families where every one hates each other, and there are adopted families where everyone loves each other.

[qoute]When I want a kid I'm not looking to improve the life of someone pre-existing, I'm looking to improve my own.[/qoute]
Wow... just wow... Thats pretty much the worst reason to have kids. You arent going to have any "close ties" with your kids if you keep that attitude around. You are talking about creating and taking care of people, this has nothing to do with improving your life. Its not like shopping for cereal.

 

[averydeeadaccount]

wierd, i heard that having 3 or more kids is selfish.

what really matters is if having children is enjoyable or not, and if society meeds more children or not. if you enjoy kids and society needs more, or hate kids and society needs less, then the decision is obvious. if you dont want kids but society needs more, or you do want kids but society needs less, then its reasonable.

if you choose your lifestyle with your own desires above society, one could argue your being selfish, if they are that utilitarian (and follow societies whims themselves, otherwise they're just hypocritical), then their point could be argued.

how Australia fairs 70 years down the line is realy not my problem, I can be a decent person, donate to charites, donate blood or organs...but fuck it, I dont need to have a kid to secure the future of my country, PLENTY of other...better people are doing that

i think this attitude is what they're talking about. the belief that other people will handle the hard parts of continuing our collective existence, so I don't have to; that's called selfishness.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

In a sense thats what ive been trying to say but without the skills in english it's been hard to put in words. While culture isn't necessarily tied to an ethnic group, often it is. So by preserving one, one also preserves the other. While cultures are fated to change or dissappear, I don't think being "apathic" and completley disregarding the thought of having children is right. I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't such a common stance people take these days wich is frightening. Having a family is something that should be praised and elevated over just making money and being rich. That said, I don't think having too many children is good either as it usually causes the home to be unstable and causes needless harm to the children.

The problem is that in many cases I don't think it's necessarily an issue of having children versus being rich.

I've spoken to many people who choose not to have children because they simply don't believe that they're up to the task. Basically, they feel that they would be inadequate as parents, and may actually end up being detrimental to the healthy growth and development of their children. Maybe because of character flaws, or maybe because of genetic defects that run in the family, or maybe just because they don't feel like financially they could provide for the child.

I actually respect those people quite a lot for being able to acknowledge their own flaws and make the decision to not force a child to pay the price for those flaws.

One of my closest friends is an alcoholic. He drinks about 30 beers per night on average, with no desire to quit. His dad was an alcoholic as well. He's expressed to me in the past that he doesn't want to have children because he's afraid that because of his own flaws his children might grow up to be just like him, and he'd rather spare them of that pain. Someday maybe he'll sober up and change his mind... for the sake of his health, I truly hope he does. But until then I think he's made a very wise and respectable decision.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

1. define "actually care"

because as I said we are incapaable of empathising with every induvidual in the world, but the the Idea of a child in that situation gets some kind of emotional response from me, I empathise..and hell I was often horrfied at the Idea that because somone got a shitty start at life their life that would mean their life would turn into shit

so perhaps thats not "actually caring", I'm not in a position to adopt a child...but I dont refer to them as "damaged goods" liek they are just objects to be cast aside...small things I guess

2. I never said adoption was easy, I hear how hard and frustrating the process is (for certain reasons I wont go into I doubt Ill ever be able to adopt unfortunatly), but people still do it, and "damaged goods" are not beyond help

3. asdie from the "celebrity thing".....I dont disagree...more people have their own than adopt and I guess alot that do adopt cant have their own..there are some who choose too but then I dont relaly know any satistics or details (how about you?)

4. I still stand by my statment, giving another child a chance with the added bonus of not having childbirth sounds liek a godo reason...HOWEVER not having to go through childbirth should only ever be considered an added bonus and not the main reason..obviously

5. well those idiots are in no position to adopt...or raise kids

 

[DanielBrown]

Should be on the contrary. Praise people who don't want kids, or those who adopt, instead.
We gotta fight this rapidly growing overpopulation!

... Needs moar world wars.

 

[Sarah Frazier]

I don't see the selfishness in it either.

Is it selfish if, for example, you lack the money to comfortably support yourself and perhaps even aging/sickly parents? Is bringing a child into the mix really the good and righteous thing to do? Is it worth it to hope you count for welfare just to be able to get basic baby things?

What if you inherited bad genetics from your own parents that will more than likely be passed on to your kids? How would it be un-selfish to put a person through hellish growing years with health problems or just looking different? Would it be any better to jealously shelter them from the outside world until it's time for them to get a job?

Don't forget about people who react forcefully when confronted with problems, and what child doesn't cause problems for their parents at some time?

So I say "To hell with expecting everyone to have kids". Not everyone is ready, able, or even capable of rearing offspring to be a successful adult, and that's not even factoring in economic downturns and unemployment rates. Leave the people who don't want kids alone. They may change their minds on their own or have a good reason for keeping their genetics to themselves.

 

[Vault101]

wierd, i heard that having 3 or more kids is selfish.

what really matters is if having children is enjoyable or not, and if society meeds more children or not. if you enjoy kids and society needs more, or hate kids and society needs less, then the decision is obvious. if you dont want kids but society needs more, or you do want kids but society needs less, then its reasonable.

if you choose your lifestyle with your own desires above society, one could argue your being selfish, if they are that utilitarian (and follow societies whims themselves, otherwise they're just hypocritical), then their point could be argued.

how Australia fairs 70 years down the line is realy not my problem, I can be a decent person, donate to charites, donate blood or organs...but fuck it, I dont need to have a kid to secure the future of my country, PLENTY of other...better people are doing that

i think this attitude is what they're talking about. the belief that other people will handle the hard parts of continuing our collective existence, so I don't have to; that's called selfishness.

aside form obvious things..like trying not to fuck up the environment the "collective existance" is not somthing I give that much importance to, its subjetive (cal me invuvidalistic if you will)

can you really call people "selfish" for not following somthing they dont belive in?

also the human race is not in any danger of dying out due to low population

 

[zefiris]

death, sterility, homosexuality inhibitin

Really. Really.

It'd help if you'd just, like, stopped trying to prevent homosexuals from having kids. There's actual laws against artificial inseminations for lesbians in some places, for example.

Really, if we can afford the luxury to deny people who want children to have children, I see no reason to assume that people have to have children. The population does not need to grow.

That "everyone" needs to have those 2 children is untrue. All it means is that on AVERAGE, 2 children would be required to stablize the population number. The argument ignores that a)some people have more than 2 children, and b)that population stability is not a value in itself.

We'd do fine if we'd shrink some.

 

[Britisheagle]

What most others have said... That it depends on both you and your partner as it IS selfish if they want kids but you didn't, or vice versa, and its only when you have spent years together that this point is brought to light thus causing a rift and possibly a very difficult situation. This is what happened to break up my dad's first marriage before he got with my mum.

In addition you have to remember that if everyone thought like yourself the entire population would come to a stand still, or even worse all the people that just have kids for the government's money are the majority it the next generation. Now they are the selfish ones.

I think it depends though, end of the day it is your choice and to be honest it isn't going to bother me nor many others if you decided that you didn't want to have kids. But you have to be certain. I know a number of peole who have said that all their life only to get broody when it's too late.

I personally love the idea of having kids and can't wait til me and my girlfriend get our own place to make that a reality. Raising and caring for someone I helped bring onto this planet is just something I would love to do and would be proud of, an achievement that doesn't have Gamerscore associated with it! But thats just me.

 

[idontwannabeaschizo]

Hmmmmm, alot of interesting stuff, and its fecal-slinging counterpart as well. From reading all 5ish pages all I can really do is contribute my own opinion rather than reply to another's.

So for starters, if its selfish to not have kids, is it selfish to have them too? *shrugs* Sorry I like being "Devil's Advocate" as it were.

I for one wish for a family in the future once I can actually support a family, for those who do not wish for one and wish to go about your life as such, some serious consideration on that fact would be (in coming with being self-aware and us being able to at least nominally "think" for outselves) needed. Like for one are you unprepared for being a parent in the first place, let alone a good one (I mean in economics/lifestyle). Then after that, whether or not you wish this as BOTH a furtherance of yourself and allowing a new life into the world, and the sacrifices and benefits thereof (because why can't helping someone else ALSO help you in your purposes?).

As for not having kids for overpopulation, the world's peoples are not homogeniously spread over the earth, some have far far too many, others are struggling to even break their birth rate even. So before you consider overpopulation consider how many people actually live around you, not people far far away, personally those people should not be in my (primary) consideration unless I can get my own home (with or without children) stable and harmonious. I find myself annoyed at the choice of not having kids at being just over-population without actually taking a look into where YOU live. Once again, serious consideration must be given to be a parent for at least these reasons, bringing a new life into this world and being at least for 20 odd years as is current responsible for it is another.

As for ethnicity, I'd like to go by the British Statesman who said "No permanent allies, only permanent interests." The allies can change like race or ethnicity, but the values I espouse, like community, law and order, and respect for the individual AND society is something I wish to keep into the future, and that future is in my children's hands after that. So if the foundation is all I can give, all I have the right to give, and then anything after that is their privilege so be it (as I sometimes doubt that we have these "rights" at all in the broad sense).

And yes I do have a at least current preference for the Greco-Roman-Anglo style of these values/morals/ethics, sorry but thats how I feel, take it or leave it. I wish to see them continued, whether or not the world does is its own matter.

As for adopting, I'd say go for kids in your own country, again its my belief it helps to make your own region better before attempting the noble and/or vainglorious attempts at charity in places far far away. Thats just me though, otherwise its your call and I won't mess with it.

I'll end with irregardless of your endpoint, GIVE SERIOUS CONSIDERATION to ALL the issues surrounding this before making a final decision, superficial reasons will only hurt you and the people around you. Otherwise stick with it, don't give in and your alright in my book.

 

[Mortons4ck]

discussion value, have you or somone you know ever encountered this kind of attitude? can you explain why not having kids is somhow selfish/non-selfish? and what do you think about it in general? [/B]

because seriously, I dont get it

It may or may not be selfish to not want to have kids. But I think it's better for potential kids in the long run that their would be parents identify themselves as not wanting children, as they probably wouldn't be emotionally invested enough to be good parents. So, in some sense, it could be considered non-selfish to not have kids because it would be in the kids best interest not to have non-emotionally invested parents.

edit: Maybe it's selfish, maybe not. But it's certainly a valid choice.

 

[Andaxay]

snip

like a woman who doesnt have children so she can focus on her carerr in science...and ends up curing cancer, sure thats exagerating but there are all kinds of ways you can contribute, adding anotehr human to the mess isnt nessicaryly the best thing ever

This, oh my GOD this.

I don't want children. Never wanted them. And in September I'm going back to college to study science and maths. To hopefully end up in biology or chemistry after a degree. And I might well end up curing something or furthering something! Because it's something I so badly want to do: no matter how small, I want to change something for the better in this world. If I had children, there is absolutely no way I could go on to dedicate my time to my dream. And you never know, if I really did go on to do well, then the world might miss out on something if I didn't and had kids instead.

I don't want children because I have goals. I find it funny that people are expected to stop their own lives to raise children. All focus on the children, please! Hilariously, though, once those children reach child-bearing age, THEY'RE expected to give up THEIR dreams to have children! And if that happens, no one will ever further anything! In my last job, exhausted parents walked through the doors so often that it put me off even more. I'm tired enough after a normal day (anaemia doesn't help), I'd be drained to hell if I then had to go home to look after children.

I don't feel like I can look after a child, I certainly can't afford to take care of one, and I don't want to raise them. Simple as. There seems to be a taboo - my close friends understand, but I was at a baby shower last week. Everyone there was either pregnant or had children. And a lovely girl commented that I had all this to look forward to. And you know what? I didn't feel like I could say "I don't want children" in a room full of parents. I laughed and said "maybe in a few years." Why, though? It's my choice. Not EVERYONE has to have kids. Enough people in Britain are pumping out ten kids just for child benefits anyway, and surely that makes up for the population. I'm not giving up my dream for the sake of trying to save the population in a country that certainly doesn't need it adding to.

I'll never say never, but I've never wanted them, will not be pressured into having them because society says I have to, and I am NOT putting my goals on hold to raise a child that will eventually have to put their own goals on hold. Pointless.

 

[azurine]

My response would be "well excuse me for not furthering the problem of over population".
No one should be tied down to the "moral values" of humans that should have been given up centuries ago. No one has any right to tell you "you're wrong" if you want to do something else with your life.