so....Not having children=Selfish?

[Vault101]

.

1. Im trying to avoid getting banned so I'll just say, although there is some truth to that (we cant cry over every person in the world) there is no need to be so fucking insensitive, because I find it sad some children dont get much of a chance in life, you dont have to pretend to care, but.....well your wording isnt giving you much respect

2. if they are babies..then its not damaged goods, and if they are? well so fucking WHAT? some are willing and can deal with that, so that kis doesnt have to end up a screwed up adult, more power to them

3. thats nice....like I said, some people adopt for many reasons, and improving some childs life might jsut be a bonus

4. true...most might people dont adopt if they can have their own...but I think some do

5. sounds like a good reason to me, since I;d have to have the thing..you know on top of the other good reason

6. oh sure...biology has alot to do with it theres no denying that..but does that mean you cant love an adopted child? I doubt it, if you dispute that you shoudl ask some adoptive parents/children

 

[Ledan]

mother of all snips

True. But spending years of your life to raise kids is more than a little solidarity. That is years of your life, work you have to do, interests of your own you have to shelve.

That sounds selfish doesn't it? Putting your own interests before others, isn't that what selfish is? (Just to continue a discussion on the internet, nothing personal.)

I agree Comrade! We must go with ze communist system, we must all share and help each other! To keep anything from others is selfish, we must show solidarity in these hard times by raising another communist country!

Seriously though, now that we can soon have vat-grown people, normal people dont need to have kids.

 

[Phasmal]

No, it's not selfish.

It is selfish of other people who presume to tell you what your `biological imperiative` is, and how you're female so you WILL go ga-ga for babies at some point (balls), or that it is somehow your duty to breed. Don't let people make you second-guess yourself, otherwise you could end up with a baby you dont want in order to feel normal.

Basically do whatever the fuck you like and if someone tells you its selfish, flip them the bird. And even if it was selfish, so what? People do selfish shit all the time, why should you be selfless?

I've already decided I am going to have kids at some point, because I want to, not because its my freaking purpose of being, because its not. You are not your kids.

 

[Eventidal]

It's something I might do some day, but it's an insane commitment and a huge lifestyle choice. I'm not having a kid until I'm damn well ready, and if that time happens to be 40 or later then so be it. Is it selfish of me to want to have time and money to raise a kid properly? Yes, selfish to myself, to him/her, and to everyone/everything the child influences throughout his/her life.
If I'm going to jump into that kind of commitment, I'm going to make sure I'm ready first.

 

[Vault101]

To OP, who exactly are you arguing with?

WHO has said that not having children is selfish? Who are these people?
If it's some crazy homeless guy who lives in the alley next to your house then I really can't see why you're thinking so much about it.
It seems to me that you are arguing with yourself.


Should I make a thread called, "So...Child Murder is right?" and argue against an argument nobody has ever made?

no

it was the craxy homeless cat lady...she often screetches at me when I go to work (and throws cats) its quite unerving

(nah...it was just me thinking randomly...this is an attutude some people kind of have, I know its less common thease days, but it was really the logic behined the statment that baffled me)

To OP, who exactly are you arguing with?

WHO has said that not having children is selfish? Who are these people?
If it's some crazy homeless guy who lives in the alley next to your house then I really can't see why you're thinking so much about it.
It seems to me that you are arguing with yourself.


Should I make a thread called, "So...Child Murder is right?" and argue against an argument nobody has ever made?

Um... You should read the thread before making comments like that. Since some people saying that have shown up. Unless you think Vault101 is secretly pretending to be other people in this thread I don't think she's arguing with herself.

.....how did you know?....

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Their remorsefulness is irrelevant. They are homosexual and do not have any interest in the opposite sex. And being homosexual isn't a choice they made, so forcing them to have kids would be cruel if anything.

While no one else should be forced either, i'd consider them to be selfish if anything. I'm mixed myself and want my current unique ethnic groups to continue on existing because I find their values and culture great. So anyone within the group who goes "I don't like children, they're smelly, so im not gonna have them!". I consider selfish. Because some things are bigger than the individual.

And only confused people like Mortai can find these things "racist".

Alright, I think I get what you're saying. You're trying to look at it from, say, a historian or sociologist perspective. You'd rather that a culture be something that you can see and feel and study in person, rather than reading about it in a textbook.

Which for the most part I agree with. I'd certainly prefer that cultures continue to exist rather than die out.

I just wonder if the eventual death of a culture is every bit as inevitable as the death of an individual. There are tons of cultures that have disappeared over the course of human history, and no doubt there will be more to come. One could even argue, I suppose, that every day we watch the death of various cultures as societal attitudes change toward behavior and language.

So I guess the way I see it, cultures are fated to disappear with time... but that's no reason to fast-forward to that point.

I'm not really sure I'd call that a racist ideology. I don't think I would, anyway.

 

[AngloDoom]

-SNIP

So? Your point? Seriously, what the fuck is your point. It's a person, great, doesn't mean I or the majority of the rest of the world has any reason to give a shit. The biological parents shouldn't have made it, doesn't make it my problem.

Wow, you're very aggressive, huh?

Anyway, here's me butting in =D

"The biological parents shouldn't have made it"? What does that even mean? What if the parents died? Should they not have had a child in case they got hit by a drunk-driver?

Because they're only damaged insofar as they don't have parents.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

No. You don't really believe that, do you? You really think that them not having parents does nothing to them? Or that they aren't up for adoption for entirely different reasons, such as having been removed from a Household? What about Diseases?

Because kids who aren't adopted never suffer violence in their own household, never get ill, and are always totally well-grounded and healthy. That's why all the weirdos are adopted, amirite?

Because you're actively improving someone's life.

When I want a kid I'm not looking to improve the life of someone pre-existing, I'm looking to improve my own.

Agreed, no argument there.

Because your own genes mean that maybe having children isn't the greatest idea when adoption is viable.

You don't get to leave the constraints of the question. Very simple situation, your own children are a perfectly viable option. No reason to adopt some random kid, all it does is cause problems.

Well, I certainly am thinking about it rather than having my own child. Why, you may ask? Because I'd rather not produce another privileged white middle-class child when I could, with a little more/less difficulty (depending on where you stand) improve another child's life. I want to improve my own life, definitely, but why not make myself feel better about helping out someone in need too while I'm at it?

Because maybe some people don't want to go through the physical trauma of giving birth when they don't have to.

Doesn't seem like a good reason to me, but whatever I'll let you have that.

Really? 'Cus I've grown up with women saying "IT'S THE MOST PAINFUL THING IN THE ENTIRE WIDE WORLD". Why would you not avoid that if you could?

Because blood-ties, ethnicity, and love don't have to have anything to do with one another, and any reasonable couple and their reasonable adopted kid can probably find a way to see that.

Look it up, you'll find that you are wrong.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. That individual came up with a claim, it is up to you (as the current champion of the opposite side of the argument) to disprove it. I'd be interested to know where you're getting this information from too.

Hell, my relationship with my parents has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to have the same genes as them,

Yes, it does.

To what degree, though? How far can you prove this? I can just counter with 'No it doesn't' and we're no further into a decent discussion. Why does it? How can we see these effects in adopted children? What about if I had a wife who was unfaithful, had the child, but I was unaware? Would my nature-sense kick in and I could tell the kid wasn't mine because I couldn't feel quite so comfortable walking around my own house naked or something? That sounds rather silly, if you ask me.

except when my dad projects on me and erroneously interprets personality quirks as OCD.

There's plenty of reasons for adoption.

No, not really, the only reasons are:

In your mind, no, and we're fortunate enough as a species not to be one hive-mind, but hey let's go through your points:

I am already insanely rich and this is very much like getting a souvenir

What? Where the hell did you get this opinion from?

I can't have children of my own and other more natural options either also do not work or do not appeal to me.

Wait, let me check that again:

more natural options either also do not work or do not appeal to me.

So a valid reason, in your words, is that having a kid 'naturally' does not appeal?

Didn't you just explode your own argument?

I'm just wierd like that.

Yes, weird because we don't all think the same as you. What a lovely safety-net you've deployed there to save you the effort of making any real point. If someone comes along and defeats your 'criteria' then the failsafe "You're weird" pops up and catches them before any real debate can get rolling. Well done, absolute genius.

Those are the only reasons.[/quote]

Except for the one's I've already given. I suppose that makes me "weird" for not thinking that having a child pop out of someone else's body with my hair and my eyes will make that kid any more special.

 

[Li Mu]

no

it was the craxy homeless cat lady...she often screetches at me when I go to work (and throws cats) its quite unerving

(nah...it was just me thinking randomly...this is an attutude some people kind of have, I know its less common thease days, but it was really the logic behined the statment that baffled me)

Fair enough.

 

[Phasmal]

It is selfish of other people who presume to tell you what your `biological imperiative` is, and how you're female so you WILL go ga-ga for babies at some point (balls), or that it is somehow your duty to breed. Don't let people make you second-guess yourself, otherwise you could end up with a baby you dont want in order to feel normal.

I'd say it's ignorant of them, not necessarily selfish. Though the last bit about duty to breed would likely classify as selfish.

Just saying since throwing the word selfish at people who seem more ignorant would probably just confuse them.

Other than that, totally agree.

I think its selfish of random people to go `Fuck what you want, do whats normal, because I say so`.
But I imagine it probably is quite easy to confuse people like that. Use small words ;D

 

[Smiley Face]

Because the damaged goods you're talking about are people.

So? Your point? Seriously, what the fuck is your point. It's a person, great, doesn't mean I or the majority of the rest of the world has any reason to give a shit. The biological parents shouldn't have made it, doesn't make it my problem.

No, but it does make it A problem, and some people like solving those problems. It's called altruism. Some people have it.

Because they're only damaged insofar as they don't have parents.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

No. You don't really believe that, do you? You really think that them not having parents does nothing to them? Or that they aren't up for adoption for entirely different reasons, such as having been removed from a Household? What about Diseases?

No, I don't assume that. I'm talking about adoption as a generalization. Not every kid up for adoption is damaged goods. Not every kid up for adoption has 'Diseases'. That's a case-by-case basis. I'm talking about why someone would adopt someone in the first-place. The only universal qualifier for a kid up for adoption is that, right now, their legal guardian is the state, rather than individuals, so yeah, actually, I am right. And don't do that mocking laugh and 'you can't be serious' thing, by the way, it makes you seem like a jerk - just mentioning. Probably also isn't a good move if you're wrong, either.

Because you're actively improving someone's life.

When I want a kid I'm not looking to improve the life of someone pre-existing, I'm looking to improve my own.

Yeah, but my point is that, adoption or your own kid, you get a kid. Adoption gives the added bonus of improving the life of someone pre-existing. It's called altruism. Or kindness. Or being nice. Look it up.

Because your own genes mean that maybe having children isn't the greatest idea when adoption is viable.

You don't get to leave the constraints of the question. Very simple situation, your own children are a perfectly viable option. No reason to adopt some random kid, all it does is cause problems.

Actually, no, my point is perfectly valid, because you're assuming that making your own kid doesn't cause any of its own problems. It does. My family has a predisposition to cancer, heart disease, alzheimer's, bipolar, OCD, etc. Those are the potential problems with any kid of mine. If I adopt a kid, I get to avoid all that. So that actually does give a reason to adopt a kid, and doesn't leave the constraints of the question.

Because maybe some people don't want to go through the physical trauma of giving birth when they don't have to.

Doesn't seem like a good reason to me, but whatever I'll let you have that.

I can't say I'd feel that way, but I'm not a woman, and I've met some who do. To each their own.

Because blood-ties, ethnicity, and love don't have to have anything to do with one another, and any reasonable couple and their reasonable adopted kid can probably find a way to see that.

Look it up, you'll find that you are wrong.

Depends on what definition of love we're using. If we're using the biochemical one, then they are related, yes. If we're using the more common, colloquial definition of love, someone that you really care for, then no, blood-ties and ethnicity don't HAVE to play a role in the building of that relationship.

Hell, my relationship with my parents has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to have the same genes as them,

Yes, it does.

No it doesn't, not in any meaningful way. It may have in the past, but right now, at the moment, our relationship is founded upon the fact that they raised me, not that we have the same genes. I could not care less about that. And I'm the only one here qualified to say that.

There's plenty of reasons for adoption.

No, not really, the only reasons are:

I am already insanely rich and this is very much like getting a souvenir

I can't have children of my own and other more natural options either also do not work or do not appeal to me.

I'm just wierd like that.

Those are the only reasons.

[/quote]

You may note that 'I'm just weird like that' implicitly covers every possible reason imaginable, right? It can mean anything. And 'more natural options... do not appeal to me' sort of covers a LOT of people who consider adoption - for one of many reasons, the alternatives don't appeal to them.

 

[Vault101]

[snip

you talking about him or me?

because if youre talking to me then I disagree..I made my point

 

[JoshuaMadoc]

I'd sooner die than be coerced by pro-babby lobbyists to have children, in spite of the fact that I have a family that's so fucked up that they've doomed us all into teaching future generations on how to be the most hopelessly abusive human beings in the world.

I will not let any future brides and children-to-be suffer what I've suffered. My lineage will end with me. Selfishness is irrelevant at this point.