Stolen Pixels #257: The Electronic Artists

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Danceofmasks

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Bioware: You gotta push the date, 'cos we found stuff we want to fix.
EA: Well, let us do the talking. We're the publisher, it's what we do. What's the game, again?
 

Gralian

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Sep 24, 2008
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Thank fuck for the stripping down of RPG elements in Mass Effect.

Because frankly, it always was a shooter, not a slow turn-based system like NWN2 or KOTOR. It tried to be a shooter with number crunching, and you know what the result was? Booooring.

Mass Effect 2 went the right way; exciting gunplay supported by special abilties that work on a cooldown. Like the perfect blend of the TPRS, or "Third Person Roleplaying-Shooter", sort of like what Borderlands tried to do in the first person variety. (Though to be frank, even the RPG elements on that were way too heavy handed. I want my guns to be guns, not see numbers drown out the screen)

Not to mention the utter relief in there being no inventory. Do you know how fucking annoying it was to have to open that shit up every five to ten minutes just to turn everything into omni-gel so i'd have more room to pick up yet more junk and repeat the process all over again? In the end, i just gave up looting, because i was sick to death of it. I really hope we get the same weapon and armour management we got in ME2.

I will agree that the 'ye olde RPG mechanics' do still have a place in gaming, but they have a place in hacky-slashy titles. Not shooter titles. It just doesn't gel well, at all. Dragon Age can keep its Neverwinter Nights mechanics; but it just doesn't belong in Mass Effect.

Oh, and the responses in the comic did elicit a few chuckles from me.
 

bootz

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Gralian said:
Thank fuck for the stripping down of RPG elements in Mass Effect.

Because frankly, it always was a shooter, not a slow turn-based system like NWN2 or KOTOR. It tried to be a shooter with number crunching, and you know what the result was? Booooring.

Mass Effect 2 went the right way; exciting gunplay supported by special abilties that work on a cooldown. Like the perfect blend of the TPRS, or "Third Person Roleplaying-Shooter", sort of like what Borderlands tried to do in the first person variety. (Though to be frank, even the RPG elements on that were way too heavy handed. I want my guns to be guns, not see numbers drown out the screen)

Not to mention the utter relief in there being no inventory. Do you know how fucking annoying it was to have to open that shit up every five to ten minutes just to turn everything into omni-gel so i'd have more room to pick up yet more junk and repeat the process all over again? In the end, i just gave up looting, because i was sick to death of it. I really hope we get the same weapon and armour management we got in ME2.

I will agree that the 'ye olde RPG mechanics' do still have a place in gaming, but they have a place in hacky-slashy titles. Not shooter titles. It just doesn't gel well, at all. Dragon Age can keep its Neverwinter Nights mechanics; but it just doesn't belong in Mass Effect.

Oh, and the responses in the comic did elicit a few chuckles from me.
Go play CoD or Cyrsis 2 or Killzone or Bulletstorm or Bad company 2 or the othe million generic shooters you really want to play.
 

BlindChance

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Sep 8, 2009
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RhombusHatesYou said:
First, practice by herding cats.
Touché. The sad thing is, it may just be Bioware has no more place in the current market. Their game design really seems to need a good two-three year development cycle, and in the AAA world, it seems one year is all companies can afford. I just hope ME3 doesn't sell so well that EA feel happy about it.

Frankly, I really hope it bombs.
 

seditary

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I always enjoy the massive amounts of contradiction things like this bring out in people. They rail against stat shenanigans and samey gameplay mechanics in other games but when talking about Bioware its all 'give us more stat shit and everything else should be more of the same we played before!'

I also remember the crap ME2 got before its release and shortly afterwards. I'm fairly confident the same thing will happen again, a few weirdos will hate it and loads will love the shit out of it.
 

rickynumber24

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BloodSquirrel said:
I think this thread just about makes it official. Nu-Bioware fanboys have become one of the most obnoxious groups of fanboys, with one of the most zealous intolerances for criticism of their beloved company, of the current gaming community.
bootz said:
Gralian said:
Thank fuck for the stripping down of RPG elements in Mass Effect.

Because frankly, it always was a shooter, not a slow turn-based system like NWN2 or KOTOR. It tried to be a shooter with number crunching, and you know what the result was? Booooring.

Mass Effect 2 went the right way; exciting gunplay supported by special abilties that work on a cooldown. Like the perfect blend of the TPRS, or "Third Person Roleplaying-Shooter", sort of like what Borderlands tried to do in the first person variety. (Though to be frank, even the RPG elements on that were way too heavy handed. I want my guns to be guns, not see numbers drown out the screen)

Not to mention the utter relief in there being no inventory. Do you know how fucking annoying it was to have to open that shit up every five to ten minutes just to turn everything into omni-gel so i'd have more room to pick up yet more junk and repeat the process all over again? In the end, i just gave up looting, because i was sick to death of it. I really hope we get the same weapon and armour management we got in ME2.

I will agree that the 'ye olde RPG mechanics' do still have a place in gaming, but they have a place in hacky-slashy titles. Not shooter titles. It just doesn't gel well, at all. Dragon Age can keep its Neverwinter Nights mechanics; but it just doesn't belong in Mass Effect.

Oh, and the responses in the comic did elicit a few chuckles from me.
Go play CoD or Cyrsis 2 or Killzone or Bulletstorm or Bad company 2 or the othe million generic shooters you really want to play.
I have real difficulty believing that your "Nu-Bioware fanboys" are any more vehement than the people who declare that nobody who plays a shooter would ever want to pay attention to the story and the people who want to play a shooter with characterization should go back to playing shooters without characterization.

Also, frankly, it is a shooter and always has been, this coming from someone who hates most shooters (The exceptions are the Mass Effect series, TF2, and Portal. Yes, I'm a PC gamer. Also, I was soured on shooters by UT, which moves too quickly for me.)

Of course, in the spirit full disclosure, I should admit that, after buying the first two when discounted, I'm pretty sure I'm going to pre-order ME3. ... but I missed the weapon customizability from the first game.
 

Hyperactiveman

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lol. epic comic shamus.

Sadly I still have this to say regardless of how ME has been trying to suit the needs of shooter gamers and RPG gamers.

I do have to say though despite all my love for Mass Effect 1... The way Mass Effect 2 has gone has made me lose so much interest in the game... I mean I wasn't AT ALL interested with the first one to begin with because it lacked the shooter concept that most games were pitching to me with their trailers and box art.

But then I gave it a try, got some help from some mates who've played it and ended up loving almost every bit of it as if part of my changed and I stopped becoming a shooter game addict and started liking other game genres!!

It's like what Prey 2 has become... So much has changed that it isn't even a sequel... It just has the same names of things.
 

Gralian

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Sep 24, 2008
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bootz said:
Gralian said:
Thank fuck for the stripping down of RPG elements in Mass Effect.

Because frankly, it always was a shooter, not a slow turn-based system like NWN2 or KOTOR. It tried to be a shooter with number crunching, and you know what the result was? Booooring.

Mass Effect 2 went the right way; exciting gunplay supported by special abilties that work on a cooldown. Like the perfect blend of the TPRS, or "Third Person Roleplaying-Shooter", sort of like what Borderlands tried to do in the first person variety. (Though to be frank, even the RPG elements on that were way too heavy handed. I want my guns to be guns, not see numbers drown out the screen)

Not to mention the utter relief in there being no inventory. Do you know how fucking annoying it was to have to open that shit up every five to ten minutes just to turn everything into omni-gel so i'd have more room to pick up yet more junk and repeat the process all over again? In the end, i just gave up looting, because i was sick to death of it. I really hope we get the same weapon and armour management we got in ME2.

I will agree that the 'ye olde RPG mechanics' do still have a place in gaming, but they have a place in hacky-slashy titles. Not shooter titles. It just doesn't gel well, at all. Dragon Age can keep its Neverwinter Nights mechanics; but it just doesn't belong in Mass Effect.

Oh, and the responses in the comic did elicit a few chuckles from me.
Go play CoD or Cyrsis 2 or Killzone or Bulletstorm or Bad company 2 or the othe million generic shooters you really want to play.
Oh wow, lump me in with another crowd entirely. Thanks for that.

Why does it have to be double or nothing? Why do i have to have mindless grey shooter (FIRST person shooter, going by that list) or number cruncher? I want the story. I want the great universe and lore. I just don't want it bogged down with clumsy combat mechanics and needlessly obtuse inventory systems.

Swords and fireballs are slow. Guns are fast. Gun combat should be fast paced, it's not like a "you hit me, i hit you" slow sword and board combat you find in fantasy games, is it? Can you see really not see why heavy RPG systems would compliment a game like Dragon Age rather than Mass Effect?
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Shamus Young said:
I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite evasive answer on the Citadel.
EA also did the same thing with Command and Conquer 4.

Many people are against a lot of the changes in ME3, but true to form, EA only listens to the monies.
 

Fensfield

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Well, whatever happens, I'll buy it to see the end of the story.

And thus will likely end my brief interaction with Bioware >.>
 

Boba Frag

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Loving the return to your glorious ways with this brilliant update, Shamus!

I don't trust EA as far as I can throw them either, but let's hope that BioWare has enough clout of its own to be able to stand up to the narrow minded stupidity of EA's execs.
To be fair, I'm way more of a fan of the Mass Effect rather than the Dragon Age games, and this coming from a guy that's IN LOVE with the fantasy genre.

The Mass Effect games just seem to belong to far more interesting universe, with more original takes on the genre, I guess.

Plus there are big shooty lasers.

This One shall pray to the Enkindlers for BioWare's soul.
 

bootz

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Feb 28, 2011
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Gralian said:
bootz said:
Gralian said:
Thank fuck for the stripping down of RPG elements in Mass Effect.

Because frankly, it always was a shooter, not a slow turn-based system like NWN2 or KOTOR. It tried to be a shooter with number crunching, and you know what the result was? Booooring.

Mass Effect 2 went the right way; exciting gunplay supported by special abilties that work on a cooldown. Like the perfect blend of the TPRS, or "Third Person Roleplaying-Shooter", sort of like what Borderlands tried to do in the first person variety. (Though to be frank, even the RPG elements on that were way too heavy handed. I want my guns to be guns, not see numbers drown out the screen)

Not to mention the utter relief in there being no inventory. Do you know how fucking annoying it was to have to open that shit up every five to ten minutes just to turn everything into omni-gel so i'd have more room to pick up yet more junk and repeat the process all over again? In the end, i just gave up looting, because i was sick to death of it. I really hope we get the same weapon and armour management we got in ME2.

I will agree that the 'ye olde RPG mechanics' do still have a place in gaming, but they have a place in hacky-slashy titles. Not shooter titles. It just doesn't gel well, at all. Dragon Age can keep its Neverwinter Nights mechanics; but it just doesn't belong in Mass Effect.

Oh, and the responses in the comic did elicit a few chuckles from me.
Go play CoD or Cyrsis 2 or Killzone or Bulletstorm or Bad company 2 or the othe million generic shooters you really want to play.
Oh wow, lump me in with another crowd entirely. Thanks for that.

Why does it have to be double or nothing? Why do i have to have mindless grey shooter (FIRST person shooter, going by that list) or number cruncher? I want the story. I want the great universe and lore. I just don't want it bogged down with clumsy combat mechanics and needlessly obtuse inventory systems.

Swords and fireballs are slow. Guns are fast. Gun combat should be fast paced, it's not like a "you hit me, i hit you" slow sword and board combat you find in fantasy games, is it? Can you see really not see why heavy RPG systems would compliment a game like Dragon Age rather than Mass Effect?
So you want half life 2 or crysis or brothers in arms or brink or homefront or medal of honor or fear those games are already made. Let mass effect have rpg elements it will stand out of the crowd. If you want other fps with story there are lots of them.
 

Gralian

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Sep 24, 2008
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bootz said:
So you want half life 2 or crysis or brothers in arms or brink or homefront or medal of honor those games are already made. Let mass effect have rpg elements it will stand out of the crowd. If you want other fps with story there are lots of them.
Er, no.

Let's start on the most basic, fundamental level. Those games are FIRST person shooters. Mass Effect is a THIRD person shooter. Got that? Good.

Now, please, tell me in what possible way any of those games can compare to the lore, story, characterisation and universe of Mass Effect? Are you seriously trying to tell me that Half-Life, Crysis and Brink (a game that doesn't even really have a single player component) can possibly compare to the world of Mass Effect? Good freaking lord.

You're basically saying that "You're not good enough to enjoy what we enjoy because you refuse to accept combat mechanics. Go back to more simplistic games, because what you want is trivial and less important than what we want." Does that not strike you as terribly self-centered?

Are you honestly trying to tell me that you didn't think the original Mass Effect's combat was cumbersome? The reason ME2 had to change to be more fast paced, is that you can't do it half and half. You either have to make it properly turn based or make it free fast paced action. Let me give you an example. Remember Knights of the Old Republic? Well, the way guns were handled in that, were that you would simply target the enemy to attack, and then your character would spend forever aiming and then auto-attacking with a single shot, and the enemy would do the same and it operated just like an MMO style fight, complete with skills in the hotbar for things like "rapid fire" which had cooldowns. That's great, i have no problems with that, because it's a one hundred percent RPG system. But if you try to mesh it with live action, it becomes horribly bogged down under its own weight. Pointless engagements that lasted far longer than they should because it's all based on numbers rather than specific tropes of location specific damage and damage types in the form of ammunition that was specifically useful in each given situation. Not only that, but regardless of your stance on the "Roleplaying Shooter", the inventory system was, i'm sorry to say, a terrible mess that was easily cluttered and far too reliant on the player to act as a janitor to clean out the junk every time you cleared a room. No-one wants to be doing that. Getting gear is nice, but it shouldn't be a chore to sort out your shit after every single engagement. With ME2, you had no junk, and the few times you did get a new gun or armour it felt like a meaningful upgrade and was readily accessible. No need to compare stats or sift through a lofty inventory with items that may or may not be useful.

I think you are conflating my distaste for RPG combat mechanics with other elements of the RPG genre such as narrative and storytelling and i think it speaks volumes about you if you think for one second that the story told in something like Mass Effect can even remotely compare to something as trivial as "homefront" and other games you listed and i think it says even more about you when you try to push other gamers away who are dissatisfied with certain aspects of other things they might enjoy and say "Why don't you entertain your simple mind with something else instead, this isn't for you".
 

Epic Fail 1977

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The first picture (frame?) made me really LOL

But honestly Shamus, IMHO you're (intentionally?) misunderstanding what EA and Bioware have been saying. It doesn't sound to me like ME3 will be any less of an RPG than ME2 was. But time will tell I suppose.
 

Warachia

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Actually Shamus, you're a bigger asshole drawing conclusions without any conclusive facts leading to said conclusions.
It comes off as a fanboy crying because they think they can't have their favorite ball.
I honestly wouldn't have any problem with this if you didn't immediatly pass judgement before thinking things through (kind of like a certain article you wrote on ME2's story where 95% of the things you wrote were wrong).
 

Epic Fail 1977

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Warachia said:
Actually Shamus, you're a bigger asshole drawing conclusions without any conclusive facts leading to said conclusions.
It comes off as a fanboy crying because they think they can't have their favorite ball.
I honestly wouldn't have any problem with this if you didn't immediatly pass judgement before thinking things through (kind of like a certain article you wrote on ME2's story where 95% of the things you wrote were wrong).
That's a bit harsh. Are you actually trying to incite moderator wrath?

I read that article on ME2's plot. Shamus did make a couple of mistakes but I thought the gist of his article was spot on. Just saying.
 

Littlee300

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Ephraim J. Witchwood said:
Still gonna be great.

Quit crying, people. At least until you've actually played it.
If the developers of Max Payne said Max Payne 2 would not focus on story then I would be pissed and rightfully so.