Super Mario Galaxy 2

[Prexus]

I don't think Yahtzee is right about this at all. The Escapists themselves published the article about how Super Mario Galaxy 2 started out as DLC for Super Mario Galaxy, but after realizing they had so much extra content they could sell a game out of it, they did so.

Which is a perfectly fine reason to do so. They do it with Mumorpergers all the time and don't get me started on Starcraft II-1, 2 and 3.

I wonder, if Nintendo had entitled it Super Mario Galaxy Lost Levels, and sold it as a DLC, would he have cared so much? He really has no reason to dislike the game other than it is the same as other games which he liked, so it appears he is splitting hairs for the purpose of splitting hairs. Wait, isn't that what Yahtzee is known for best?

Maybe he has every right to complain, maybe he doesn't; my main problem with this Zero Punctuation is that it wasn't funny... at all.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/100611-Super-Mario-Galaxy-2-Started-As-Galaxy-1-5

^ Link to Article referenced above

 

[GLo Jones]

For the first time, I must completely disagree with Yahtzee. He is absolutely and utterly wrong:

Spoiler: Why?

Angry Birds is FUCKING HARD.

I'm a pretty quick learner when it comes to knew games, but damn, I just couldn't do it... I couldn't do it!

*curls up and cries*

 

[Miles Tormani]

My recommended games would be LittleBigPlanet, Halo, and Assassin's Creed 2. With AC2 being the one I would introduce later.

The controls are relatively easy compared to other games, and they all pretty much weave tutorials into the narrative to a point, so it's possible to not even realize you're in the middle of a tutorial until later (except LBP). The Halo games in particular have a tendency to give the player a lot of enemy-free space to just get used to the controls. Finally, each one caters to a different flavor of gaming, while not quite being mutually exclusive.

LittleBigPlanet has 2D platforming, and shooting. Basic stealth in Metal Gear pack.
Halo has 3D shooting, with a dash of stealth and platforming.
Assassin's Creed has 3D platforming and stealth, with some very minor "shooting."

They're also games I personally enjoy, so it wouldn't quite look like I'm emasculating the newbie. LBP and Halo also have the added bonus of being co-op, so I could, like Yahtzee said, play the role of the "active teacher" and/or respawn point.

(By the way, when I bring up Halo, I specifically mean the campaign. Throwing someone into the online multiplayer space with no prior experience is just cruel.)

As an aside, this was an excellent article, Yahtzee. Well thought out.

 

[Something Amyss]

I thought the reason we got that whole reskinned Doki Doki Panic was because the original SMB2 was brutally hard, and NoA thought that us Americans were all a bunch of doughy wimps.
At least that's what I believed...

Likewise, that's the first I heard of the idea of them thinking people wouldn't buy something so similar. The number of iterations of other titles back then wasn't anywhere near as bad as now, but I know there were a lot of popular titles with slight upgrades in their sequels.

However, Super Mario Brothers 2 was known for being brutally hard. That reputation still survives. And that's always the reason I've seen for reskinning Doki Doki Panic.

Ignoring the argument of "casual" versus "non casual," I dislike this concept of "It's for everyone" being an excuse for various creative problems. It's possible to make a game creative and fun while not excluding people. I don't think there are many games that will literally captivate everyone, but "accessible" and "youth friendly" doesn't have to translate to "handicapped" or "stupid." You're not going to merge the shooter crowd and the Wii Fit crowd, but most gamers aren't extremists.

 

[ajemas]

Thank you! It's nice to see that somebody shares my opinion on the series, and my disappointment with Super Mario Galaxy 2.
Sure, a lot of people say that the Super Mario series has been recycling itself for a very long time; but that doesn't mean that each game is the same. Just because the plot is simple, saving that Princess every other day, does not mean that the path to get to the castle that does, in fact, contain a Princess, is the same.
I don't want to mindlessly parrot your article, but I will say something about the plot that I think you might have missed (or simply not bothered with.)
Take a look at 28 Days later, The Day After Tomorrow, and 2012. While all of the movies are different, they all have the same basic plot: There is some serious shit going on where the protagonists are, and they have to be somewhere else. The rest of the movie is about them trying to leave. While these are all the same movie on paper, 28 Days Later involves repeated zombie attacks, The Day After Tomorrow deals with the environment ***** slapping humanity in the face, and 28 Days Later is filled with enough bullshit science to inspire even more fear in an even more bullshit event. (Ahem.)
My point is that each though the plot is the same in each, the way that the events are laid out are completely different. So calling each Mario game the same is equally ridiculous. Sure the plot is the same, but the methods in which you do it are totally different. Compare the first game, where you had to take down each one of Bowser's castles in succession in order to save Peach, verses Super Mario 64, where infiltrating his paintings in order to achieve stars is the primary goal.
This is the only console Mario game in which there was almost zero major innovations, and the one time that I have ever been truly upset at Nintendo.
Hats off to you, Yahtzee, and keep up your good work!

 

[Blue Musician]

It somewhat surprises me the you are defending to a certain degree the Mario games.
But it's OK, I guess, I was never a fan of console games nor any Mario games, so I do not really care.

My question is what you said in the original SMG review if I'm not mistaken, what is Mario going to evolve into now? I mean, it has all the bases covered already.

oooo i have and idea!

[HEADING=1] TIME TRAVEL! [/HEADING]

Mario goes back in time to defeat Bowser before he can do anything bad and has to play through 3d versions of some of his old games, at least at first, then once he suceeds he creates a time paradox that destroys the universe and... then.... something....

Nice idea, but that would be the only thing new, a story. No new gameplay mechanics, no new cake, just the story.

 

[Giest4life]

Totally agree on LBP. Started my six-year-old gamer prodigy - I mean, niece on 3D environment avatar control with that one; still one of her favorites. And god it is FUN when she figures out how to break the game in the level editor mode. (Note: the most used item is Rockets. I love she's already developed a Mad Scientist laugh at this early age.)

Be careful because I tried the same thing with my 7 year-old niece (now ten) and she ended up beating me in Wii bowling, and that was the last time she received any gaming tips from me.

 

[Giest4life]

For the first time, I must completely disagree with Yahtzee. He is absolutely and utterly wrong:

Spoiler: Why?

Angry Birds is FUCKING HARD.

I'm a pretty quick learner when it comes to knew games, but damn, I just couldn't do it... I couldn't do it!

*curls up and cries*

Ha! Took me over 300 tries to do it, but I did get 3 stars in all of em'.

 

[kaijyuu]

Basically:

1) Yahtzee found the game disappointing because it's more of the same.
2) Others are saying more of the same isn't always a bad thing.


Both are absolutely well founded and reasonable opinions. I can't see anyone making compelling arguments against either... you either wanted more Galaxy or a new Mario game. Agree to disagree already.

 

[cauby]

hmmm,ironically i would recommend super mario world to newbies but just because it was the game that introduced me to gaming,along with sonic 2.But if I had to follow the recomendations yahtzee made,i'd think Portal.I mean,it starts really easy,but it gets progressively harder (too hard by the end),the controls are simple if you compare it to other games,the mechanics are simple yet creative and it's short,the graphics are ok and finally because it's short,so people won't get bored too quick.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Actually, that's exactly what I would do. Shove a classic controller in their paws and put them in front of a classic game to understand some of the basics of gaming like how to use a controller ... and that you have to press start ...

"Start" just might be the most direct command button on any controller. It's like F1 in most programs, only even more direct.

I recall cutting my gaming teeth on the original Zelda, which, without a guide, gamefaqs, or previous knowledge, is a total ***** to get through (I imagine that the linearity of the second title was a response to address the confusion following the first game. The second quest in Zelda 1 is infuriatingly close to impossible to finish based on what you know from the instructions alone).

Today though, we have "casual" games and "hardcore" games of varying flavors and creeds.
Perhaps that is why we have so many shooters today; the FPS is the first "hardcore genre" a casual player is likely to stumble into. Sort of how there were not nearly as many players of the original Halo as there were Halo 2 players (based on online anyway and yes, I am painfully aware of the Broadband Availability issue back in 2002), despite Halo being a massive commercial success.

 

[TheSorrow1145]

Portal would, I think, be a good starting point for new gamers. You need to learn how to move, look, and shoot. That's all the controller mechanics you have to keep in mind. The main complications in that game are the puzzle designs, but they start off fairly simple and go through a smooth difficulty curve before they start to get frustrating. Good intro to navigating in a 3D environment.

Just don't start them off with CoD or something like that. Was playing it with my cousins and my dad walked in and started playing. He was okay, but he didn't like the fact that you push the analog stick forward to look down (we turned on look inversion for him and he still didn't quite get it). He doesn't seem to get moving and aiming at the same time. Was kinda embarrassing to watch. Then we gave him a shotgun and he did alright.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

Personally as a first time gaming experience I would recommend a whole slew of games for the Nintendo DS. Handhelds are a great way to get people used to the idea of gaming controls, themes, structure, etc.

Their size and simplified games and controls make for a perfect introduction, and the variety of games and low price (especially for the DS that plays GB and GBA titles) are appealing to non-gamers. They also offer plenty of challenging games so there's room for an upgrade.

 

[Gilfareth]

To be honest, what's the point of discussing an 'introduction' game? For us who care, who have already played a myriad of games, why should we bother with figuring out what to show to a new-timer? As Yahtzee himself has said, gaming needs to evolve. We've gone from the processor competition, graphics competition, and all three consoles out are fairly stable in their markets and niches.

See, the thing that worries me here is that someone will likely start trying to make introduction games. Useful, perhaps, but I believe that gaming as a whole needs to evolve, new ideas constantly tried and tested. If we allow gaming to simply stagnate with casual games (not so bad in themselves, but they're rarely much different from one to the next) and the complete halt Galaxy 2 represents, why will anyone bother with innovation? Why will companies fund something new and dangerous when we're just willing to buy the same crap again and again? On that, my friends, I leave you.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Actually Yahtzee if I were to introduce a newbie to gaming I probably would start them off on one of the original 3 Mario titles. I wouldn't want to rush them into 3D gaming right away, after all you have to walk before you can run. Once they had the hang of 2D then maybe I'd move them on to 3D.

As for Mario Galaxy 2, yeah I suppose it was a bit of a cop-out. I guess after all these years we've come to expect quite a bit from one of gaming's biggest icons. But you know what? It kept me entertained. Sure it was kinda odd that everybody seemed to have developed selective amnesia and had completely forgotten about the first Mario Galaxy game. Come to think about it, I'm pretty sure the centennial star festival was the opening event of the first game too, so either 100 years have passed since the first game or something screwy is going on (or both). But again you know what? It's a Mario game, I don't think your supposed to but that much thought into it. All you really need to know is that Bowser has kidnapped the Princess again and that you (as Mario) have to go rescue her. ...again. I mean you've got a brain-dead monarch ruling a kingdom of mushroom people, and said monarch is continually kidnapped by a giant mutant turtle and the only ones around to save her are a pair of plumbers. If you've already accepted that, and if you're a fan you have, then you should pretty much be able to accept anything else they could possibly through at you. I know I can.
Although I do think Bowser needs a new scheme, the save the Princess mechanic is starting to loose believability, even by Mario standards. ...but I suppose young and new fans wouldn't notice.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

That last line was hilarious.

I think I'd recommend Super Mario 64 as a nice jumping off point. The first couple levels are pretty easy, and the starting level in particular is great for just running around and getting the hang of things. Here are a few skills you can learn from just messing around in the starting level (Bomb-Omb Battlefield) while a more experienced player yells button commands at you as the need arises:

-Wrestling with a finicky camera until you finally get a viewpoint that's almost not crap. This is a skill you will use for your entire 3D gaming life, across multiple genres.
-Judging distances in virtual 3D space by punching, jumping on and kicking Goombas. Goombas are pathetically weak in Mario 64 UNLESS you are terrible at judging distances (when they run at you), in which case they pose a slight threat.
-Dealing with inertia. Mario jumps much less far when jumping from a standstill, his running speed builds gradually and many of his moves change based on your current movement speed.
-Jump basics. Most other platformers, from Banjo to Ratchet to Jak, have copied the Super Mario 3D basic jumps. They are:
-The High Jump
-The Long Jump
-The Wall Jump
-The Butt Stomp
Subsequent platformers also ripped off the Banjo-Kazooie "Hover Jump" as well, but since Mario 64 doesn't have such a move, well... It's not a huge deal.

Yahtzee mentioned that Super Mario 64 hasn't aged well, but in my opinion the level design is superior to Sunshine and the difficulty curve is pretty balanced. To me, those are more important than graphics or some minor control issues. Eh, echoing Yahtzee, learning to deal with floaty controls is important because they're freaking ubiquitous.

Oh, I'd like to point out this is for introducing a new gamer to 3D platforming specifically. If it was gaming in general, I'd pick something like Donkey Kong or Mario World, THEN move into Mario 64. Then again, I'm not sure somebody needs to learn 2D gaming to move on to 3D.

 

[carpathic]

Perhaps it is because I don't really care much about nintendo, but the doki doki thing, I felt you really were showing off your gamer balls. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it.

I guess for me, getting into gaming is hard, but the problem facing gaming is similar to those facing movies in many ways - it is expensive to make a game, and there needs to be a compelling case that there is money to be made before a game will be made.

 

[culade]

Ive had Wolfenstein 3D on Can I play, Daddy? work for this purpose. Simple controls, hitting targets only requires facing the enemy's direction while firing, secret areas find.. it's been good for a starter.

For 3D platforming i'd go with Whiplash since it's fairly simple at the start and the humor might help keep their interest for awhile.. maybe until the waste area.

i got started with games like Kid Kool, Metroid, SMB, and Zelda on NES. but i didnt get good at them until i got to Sonic 2 and Talespin on Genesis, both of which are co-op and i'd recommend them as training aids for non-gamers.

 

[dashiz94]

I'd honestly suggest Bioshock. It has a great art style, wonderful score, a decent difficulty curve, the learning curve is not hard, and the game is relatively easy, even on hard, so it won't drive anyone away. The mechanics of everything works wonderfully, and most importantly, it exemplifies innovation in a subgenre that has a lot of difficulty in really innovating, the first person shooter. The objective in those games will always be the same, go there and shoot that, but Bioshock presents it in such a brilliant way. Definitely a recommendation.

 

[dashiz94]

To be honest, what's the point of discussing an 'introduction' game? For us who care, who have already played a myriad of games, why should we bother with figuring out what to show to a new-timer? As Yahtzee himself has said, gaming needs to evolve. We've gone from the processor competition, graphics competition, and all three consoles out are fairly stable in their markets and niches.

See, the thing that worries me here is that someone will likely start trying to make introduction games. Useful, perhaps, but I believe that gaming as a whole needs to evolve, new ideas constantly tried and tested. If we allow gaming to simply stagnate with casual games (not so bad in themselves, but they're rarely much different from one to the next) and the complete halt Galaxy 2 represents, why will anyone bother with innovation? Why will companies fund something new and dangerous when we're just willing to buy the same crap again and again? On that, my friends, I leave you.

For only your second post, that was downright brilliant. Welcome to The Escapist.