The misinterpretation of evolution

[psychodynamica]

First of all, your run on sentences make an extremely incoherent argument. Second of all, you seem to have some of your facts bass-ackwards. You seem to believe that evolution was the lead idea the whole time, and that these filthy newcomers of Intelligetn Design are invading. It is actually quite the opposite. Evolution is an idea that is barely even a hundred years old, while Creationism has had free reign for thousands of years.

I think that it is fair to say that you seem to need to brush up on some things first before you go crying wolf on other people. Also, it is fair that if one idea is taught in the classroom, then another idea must be taught as well. People need to see all of the choices, and then decide for themselves what they want to believe is true. There is no reasone why Creationism nor evolution can be taught simulataneously.

Wait, an idea being around a long time has absolutely no bearing in any way to it's validity, secondly to act as if creation and evolution are both as educationally valid as one another is like saying that if we must teach kids about dinosaurs, we should have to teach them about dragons too. truth is not a choice, facts are not a choice and to overtly lie in the faces of the coming generations by telling them 'god did it' and having the only explanation be 'This really old book says so' would be ethically and morally wrong.

sorry if this seems like a rant, i understand where you are coming from, but for god sake (sorry) please stop trying to make intelligent design seem in anyway scientific. it isn't. also as a side not, when OP mentioned creationism it was simply so he could point out that Intelligent design isn't a theory, it's a rebranding.

Yours Sincerely
The Smoking Fox.

 

[Varitel]

The title of the thread is "The misinterpretation of evolution". In the original post, you mention that people are using misinterpretations and misconceptions of evolution to try and discredit it. You do then bring to light a few examples of misinterpretations of evolution, but not one that actually applies in the sense of it being used to discredit evolution. Therefore, I really don't know what the topic actually is, but there seems to be a lot of discussion about personal beliefs. That said, I believe in evolution. However, I also believe that evolution and creationism are NOT mutually exclusive.

Captcha had an omega and a beta in it. Crazy!

 

[Flac00]

Is it because of the rise of Creationism and Intelligent design (which are the same exact thing)

Are they? If I were you, I'd make sure before making such statements as to avoid coming across as ignorant as those I'm condemning. Just saying.

I am very sure in fact. Creationism and Intelligent Design are the same thing. Creationism is the idea that every living creature was created by some supernatural being (god in most cases). Intelligent Design is the idea that every living creature was created by some intelligent being (both supernatural and probably god). What few differences between them are small and meaningless.

 

[kouriichi]

Kouriichi, I think the word for what you are is "deist". Someone who believes in a supernatural creator, but not necessarily (in fact almost certainly not) the one from any particular religion.

But the point I and others have been trying to make is that, low as the chances of life (especially life as advanced as humans) arising on any planet anywhere might be, even a very small chance is a chance and there is nothing strange about it happening. It may have been very unlikely, but the universe is a very big place and it was as likely to happen here on Earth as anywhere else. We humans are the product of it happening, so it's no coincidence whatsoever that it happens where we happen to be, any more than it's a coincidence that if you design and build a car you end up with a car (sorry for the potentially confusing "design" analogy).

Again, the anthropic argument: it must have happened because here we are.

>.<
No, im not a Deist.
Because i believe that the supernatural power does take part in the affairs of the universe.

For us to exist, i believe that the supernatural power had to have a hand in all the events leading UP to where we are as a species.

Oh ok, I was forgetting about the "indifferent" aspect of deism.

But I still genuinely don't see how you've reached your conclusion. I totally agree that it's amazing to think that we are the result of a very unlikely series of occurrences, but there's no reason to think it's not the case.

Also, hopefully without getting too far into the dangerous territory of full-on theo-debate... if we were created by a being, where did that being come from?

I dont believe so much that it "came from somewhere".
I kinda believe "its part of this". (this being everything)
Kind of like Darkmatter. Its just there.

 

[Flac00]

This thread is a perfect example of why I have a hard time believing in evolution- most of you can't even agree on what we're supposed to believe!

I was raised as a Christian and still believe all that stuff but I've seen more and more evidence that points to evolution being something that may have happened. One thing I've never understood is why people don't believe God could have guided evolution; or at least played a part in it.

Thats science for you. Lots of angry, and somewhat intelligent people arguing for the better part of 2 millennia over the facts of life. Its both brilliant and stupid at the same time. Still, most of us are pretty stupid in comparison to the real scientists in the mix of the full debate. I'd advise watching a movie called "A Flock of Dodos". It does a good job at summing things up.

 

[Harlief]

Evolution is obviously true, and creationism is obviously true.
Anyone who doesn't juxtapose them is an ignoramous.

Creationism is anything but obviously true. It is merely conjecture.
In the words of Tim Minchin: "Science adjusts its views based on what's observed; faith is the denial of evidence so that belief can be preserved."

Also, I love the way you misspelled ignoramus. Pure irony.

 

[kouriichi]

xD thats the thing.
Ive looked.
I use the term "Creationist" because its the closest term to what i believe.
As someone pointed out, i could be "Deist", but that would require that i believe the person who created the universe had NO HAND what so ever in the creation of human kind.

Where as i believe that the supernatural being helped create life, protect and effect the outcome of what that life would be.

I would recommend not referring to yourself as such or these heated debates will arrive XD

Everyone has a title xD
You have to use one for what you believe.

And Creationist is the closest one i can find. Besides, heated debates tend to be the best. Its how you know both sides have valid points.

 

[Flac00]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

If Earth supporting life is proof of some apparently knowledgable force existing and in some way guiding us, then is every other planet that isn't life-sustainable proof that god doesn't exist?

In the bible it says (and I didn't write that statement so either you extrapolated or someone else did) that the universe is a reflection of his beauty and glory.

Essentially an artist doesn't just paint one thing, but not everything in the picture has to be the top focus.

hush you, we're not talking about christianity. Getting into interpretting the bible is an entirely different ball-park, and I don't feel like going and finding the child-stoning instructions.

Lets also not get into how masturbation is evil, but screwing with your daughter is a-ok. Seriously though, this shouldn't have any religious talk as it is about science.

 

[Extragorey]

Wait... Isn't evolution when Alex Mercer grows alien armour or a new limb or something?

But seriously, besides the fact that you haven't actually said what the misinterpretation IS, and besides the fact that I don't live in the US, I still have to disagree.
More people believe in evolution than creation - many more - and this belief is usually based on personal preference or religion rather than scientific knowledge.

Also, you came off as reasonably neutral until the whole "corrupting our science classes and media" bit. At that point you corrupted your post with bias, much like I'm doing now. And it's hard to have a civilised discussion when the discussers are openly predispositioned towards either side. Everyone has their own opinion, but try to obscure it unless the discussion calls for it; this one doesn't.

Back on topic, however, the question isn't really Evolution vs. Creationism - that's a bit like having a debate over the state of light: Particle vs. Wave. Except instead of proving both, you can't prove either one.

So yeah, people misinterpret evolution. People misinterpret everything. Even with a Babel fish in their ear.

 

[Flac00]

Let me wrap this whole thing up in burritos. (thats right, im gunna wrap it like a burrito, with burritos.)

Sheep are Stupid.
Sheep are part of a flock. ((Unless theyre black sheep. Then its a Murder of Sheep))
The sheep will listen to whatever the dogs bark loudest. This is learned from an early age, because of the sheep doesnt listen, they get bit.
The dogs like to keep order, and control the flock ((or murder)) of sheep. So they bark loudly.

Now if you didnt get that analogy, let me explain it.

People are stupid.
People are part of religions. ((Unless theyre black sheep. Then its Atheism))
The people will listen to whatever their leaders/parents/priests ideas are. This is learned from an early age, because of the person doesnt listen, they get punished.
The leaders/parents/priests like to keep order, and control the people. So they force their ideas.

Roughly 50% of Americans dont believe in evolution.
Roughly 76% of Americans identify themselves as christian.
Christians are told from an early age, "God made man".
Because they are "brainwashed" (for lack of a better term) to believe what is RIGHT and WRONG, they never read in depth "theories" like Evolution.
Yes, this means many Christians are able to see past their "brainwashing" (again, for lack of a better term), but it also means many are blind, and dont WANT to see past it.

See how it all fits together? Most people who dont believe in evolution, are Christians. Anyone else is well.... an idiot. (Not in the insulting way. I mean "uneducated". And not in a bad way)
Because the large majority of people were told from childhood, "God is always right, never question him, he made the world and everyone on it", they dont believe in evolution.

Im not saying religion is bad. But there is a pretty large correlation between Religion, and the halt of scientific progress.

Please note: I am not saying anyone else has to believe this. This is just my belief. This is MY take on the situation and reason behind evolution being such a misinterpreted subject. If i offended you, sorry. It was not my intention.

So your belief is that Evolution is obviously the "intelligent" side.

Interesting, though I know numerous intelligent Christians that are far more capable than either of us and they wholeheartedly explain, and defend Creationism.

No, evolution isnt so much the "intelligent" side, as it is the "knowledgeable" side.
((I know people who you would call "intelligent", but they cant even change a flat tire))

And personally, i believe in creationism. But the thing is, Evolution is a fact. Why do you think the common cold is such a problem? Because its constantly evolving. Its always changing its form c. We can never cure it, because of its rapid evolution.

Or the experiment of increasing the lifespan of a fly. http://livelonger.hubpages.com/hub/Longevity_and_Genetics

Evolution is one of the few things we can actively PROVE. xD

So do you think that God created the entire universe within a matter of days, including all life, or do you hold a more intelligent design belief with God creating the universe but evolution doing most of the "work"?

Not really "god".
I believe we were created by something beyond our comprehension.

I could call it "god" just as much as i could call it "fate", "luck", "metaphysical-aliens", or "The flying spaghetti monster".

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

And Creationism isnt the belief it happened in a matter of days. Its just that a supernatural being started it. And yes, "evolution" did most of the work after the foundation was laid.

Thinking that is fine, I have no objections to that. This is mostly because evolution starts after the creation of life. Therefore Creationism has free reign over that area. However, that still doesn't make Creationism a science and thats the big point.

Evolution includes the creation of life. How the hell do you think it happened without it?

Evolution doesn't explain how life began though. It doesn't focus on that. Instead it focuses on what happened after that moment of the existence of life on Earth. Just the same as how relativity was not created to explain how the universe was born.

I think abiogenesis is the field that tries to explain how life came about.

Maybe, I haven't looked into that. However, that is a different field, meaning it is a different subject. The influence of evolution can be used to help determine how life could have arose, however evolution does not focus on that area.

 

[weker]

Besides, heated debates tend to be the best. Its how you know both sides have valid points.

somewhat with you till here. Heated debates just show they really want their belief to be right.

 

[SFR]

Here's a common misconception about evolution: people think it attempts to explain how life started. It doesn't. It says nothing about life's creation.

I don't really get it either. I'm glad Catholicism decided to recently accept it to a degree, but at some point you gotta go "Well, this is fact, and it goes against my beliefs. I guess I will have to change my beliefs". It's hard, yes, but not impossible. At least not many people still believe the Earth is only 6000 years old. Or that the Earth is flat.

 

[psychodynamica]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

Dude, try for a moment to imagine the galaxy in all it's vastness, the uncountable number of stars, and the uncountable number of planets surrounding some of those stars. then remember that our galaxy is one of a near infinite amount of equally large galaxies. Now with that in mind look over you statement, our planet is not an amazing piece of luck, but a mathematical certainty, becuase their are so many planets and all are unique, thus one like ours had to exist somewhere. It's chance, not magic, or any other kind of supernatural thing. it's like if you had an infinite number of entirely unique human beings, their would have to be one who would be in the right time, place and state of mind to say exactly what you just said.

Not trying to insult your beliefs, just telling you what, as a species, we have figured out.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Kouriichi, I think the word for what you are is "deist". Someone who believes in a supernatural creator, but not necessarily (in fact almost certainly not) the one from any particular religion.

But the point I and others have been trying to make is that, low as the chances of life (especially life as advanced as humans) arising on any planet anywhere might be, even a very small chance is a chance and there is nothing strange about it happening. It may have been very unlikely, but the universe is a very big place and it was as likely to happen here on Earth as anywhere else. We humans are the product of it happening, so it's no coincidence whatsoever that it happens where we happen to be, any more than it's a coincidence that if you design and build a car you end up with a car (sorry for the potentially confusing "design" analogy).

Again, the anthropic argument: it must have happened because here we are.

>.<
No, im not a Deist.
Because i believe that the supernatural power does take part in the affairs of the universe.

For us to exist, i believe that the supernatural power had to have a hand in all the events leading UP to where we are as a species.

Oh ok, I was forgetting about the "indifferent" aspect of deism.

But I still genuinely don't see how you've reached your conclusion. I totally agree that it's amazing to think that we are the result of a very unlikely series of occurrences, but there's no reason to think it's not the case.

Also, hopefully without getting too far into the dangerous territory of full-on theo-debate... if we were created by a being, where did that being come from?

I dont believe so much that it "came from somewhere".
I kinda believe "its part of this". (this being everything)
Kind of like Darkmatter. Its just there.

Fair enough.

This kind of thing is the reason why I'm an agnostic who likes to be thought of as an atheist. Your darkmatter creator could be the truth. The deist's indifferent creator could be the truth. The Flying Spaghetti Monster could be the truth. Even the Judeo-Christian god could be the truth. But so could absolutely, literally anything else we could imagine, and anything we couldn't imagine, because we're talking about things that are going on outside the universe and outside our limited understanding.

So I'm agnostic, but I don't like that term because it apparently has connotations of intellectually happy-go-lucky people who are all friendly and think one belief system is as good as another. I'd rather align myself with hard-line atheists who are, quite frankly, sick and tired of seeing baseless religious beliefs presented as viable alternatives to science and rational thought.

 

[psychodynamica]

Wait... Isn't evolution when Alex Mercer grows alien armour or a new limb or something?

But seriously, besides the fact that you haven't actually said what the misinterpretation IS, and besides the fact that I don't live in the US, I still have to disagree.
More people believe in evolution than creation - many more - and this belief is usually based on personal preference or religion rather than scientific knowledge.

Also, you came off as reasonably neutral until the whole "corrupting our science classes and media" bit. At that point you corrupted your post with bias, much like I'm doing now. And it's hard to have a civilised discussion when the discussers are openly predispositioned towards either side. Everyone has their own opinion, but try to obscure it unless the discussion calls for it; this one doesn't.

Back on topic, however, the question isn't really Evolution vs. Creationism - that's a bit like having a debate over the state of light: Particle vs. Wave. Except instead of proving both, you can't prove either one.

So yeah, people misinterpret evolution. People misinterpret everything. Even with a Babel fish in their ear.

Africa, Indonesia, Asia. Lots of third world countries within. most are run and educated by religions of varying kinds. Majority of human beings have never even heard of the idea. Western europe is not the world.

 

[Flac00]

MITOCHONDRIAL LINK TO EVE

You need that or you can't prove evolution and EVERY SINGLE SCIENTIST will admit they don't know what that link is...

To everyone who doesn't know what he's talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

tl;dr: Every woman has DNA in her mitochondria which was passed on from her mother. By comparing the mitochondrial DNA with that of other living women, scientists have reached the conclusion that an African H. sapien woman is the ancestor of every woman currently alive on earth.. Her contemporaries reproduced, mind, but none of their lineages have survived "unbroken".

If any of you are interested in how this was done, this is a very informative Wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test

Look at the mtDNA section.

& Back on topic, please explain exactly the "link" you say is missing. What would you accept as proof? What is the link we're looking for? Fossil evidence? The name and address of the lady? What do you want from us?

Ask that to the scientists that are looking for it, but essentially they haven't found the chain in the DNA that links it to any animal outside of a Human.

How about the problem of interbreeding with other sapiens. It has been proven recently that Neanderthals and Homos (that sounds weird), uh humans i guess, commonly interbred. Genetics is also a fickle lady so it is hard to have that sort of evidence. I cannot put to much more into it as I am no expert.

 

[kouriichi]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

Dude, try for a moment to imagine the galaxy in all it's vastness, the uncountable number of stars, and the uncountable number of planets surrounding some of those stars. then remember that our galaxy is one of a near infinite amount of equally large galaxies. Now with that in mind look over you statement, our planet is not an amazing piece of luck, but a mathematical certainty, becuase their are so many planets and all are unique, thus one like ours had to exist somewhere. It's chance, not magic, or any other kind of supernatural thing. it's like if you had an infinite number of entirely unique human beings, their would have to be one who would be in the right time, place and state of mind to say exactly what you just said.

Not trying to insult your beliefs, just telling you what, as a species, we have figured out.

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

 

[weker]

Wait... Isn't evolution when Alex Mercer grows alien armour or a new limb or something?

Thats mutation.

From my understanding.
Mutation = Changes in the DNA
Adapting = Changes in the DNA (and other things) that help the organism survive or reproduce
Evolution = Changes in the DNA which are inherited throughout the generations

 

[kouriichi]

Kouriichi, I think the word for what you are is "deist". Someone who believes in a supernatural creator, but not necessarily (in fact almost certainly not) the one from any particular religion.

But the point I and others have been trying to make is that, low as the chances of life (especially life as advanced as humans) arising on any planet anywhere might be, even a very small chance is a chance and there is nothing strange about it happening. It may have been very unlikely, but the universe is a very big place and it was as likely to happen here on Earth as anywhere else. We humans are the product of it happening, so it's no coincidence whatsoever that it happens where we happen to be, any more than it's a coincidence that if you design and build a car you end up with a car (sorry for the potentially confusing "design" analogy).

Again, the anthropic argument: it must have happened because here we are.

>.<
No, im not a Deist.
Because i believe that the supernatural power does take part in the affairs of the universe.

For us to exist, i believe that the supernatural power had to have a hand in all the events leading UP to where we are as a species.

Oh ok, I was forgetting about the "indifferent" aspect of deism.

But I still genuinely don't see how you've reached your conclusion. I totally agree that it's amazing to think that we are the result of a very unlikely series of occurrences, but there's no reason to think it's not the case.

Also, hopefully without getting too far into the dangerous territory of full-on theo-debate... if we were created by a being, where did that being come from?

I dont believe so much that it "came from somewhere".
I kinda believe "its part of this". (this being everything)
Kind of like Darkmatter. Its just there.

Fair enough.

This kind of thing is the reason why I'm an agnostic who likes to be thought of as an atheist. Your darkmatter creator could be the truth. The deist's indifferent creator could be the truth. The Flying Spaghetti Monster could be the truth. Even the Judeo-Christian god could be the truth. But so could absolutely, literally anything else we could imagine, and anything we couldn't imagine, because we're talking about things that are going on outside the universe and outside our limited understanding.

So I'm agnostic, but I don't like that term because it apparently has connotations of intellectually happy-go-lucky people who are all friendly and think one belief system is as good as another. I'd rather align myself with hard-line atheists who are, quite frankly, sick and tired of seeing baseless religious beliefs presented as viable alternatives to science and rational thought.

Well, for all i know, the supernatural being could be nothing but, "The pure hopes and dreams of children! "
xD It could be "luck" as we know it, tipping its favor at us.

I just dont believe it all happened, without help. It could even be aliens, but because we have no tangible proof aliens exist, i dont believe it was them. (i partially believe in aliens, but not to the extent most people do.)

 

[Hides His Eyes]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

Dude, try for a moment to imagine the galaxy in all it's vastness, the uncountable number of stars, and the uncountable number of planets surrounding some of those stars. then remember that our galaxy is one of a near infinite amount of equally large galaxies. Now with that in mind look over you statement, our planet is not an amazing piece of luck, but a mathematical certainty, becuase their are so many planets and all are unique, thus one like ours had to exist somewhere. It's chance, not magic, or any other kind of supernatural thing. it's like if you had an infinite number of entirely unique human beings, their would have to be one who would be in the right time, place and state of mind to say exactly what you just said.

Not trying to insult your beliefs, just telling you what, as a species, we have figured out.

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

But the fact that we are here talking about it proves that it DID happen. And as Psychodynamica said, the universe is so damn big that there was never any reason why it shouldn't happen somewhere.

BTW I'm not saying this definitely rules out a creator, just that a creator is not necessary to explain it, as you seem to think.