The Needles: Michael Pachter, Ubisoft and the Perils of Rights and Wrong

DTWolfwood

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Oct 20, 2009
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Hubert South said:
DTWolfwood said:
always funny to see pirates think its "right" to steal games. Look if u cant afforded it, don't play it. I cant afford a BMW M3 which means i dont drive one. it doesnt mean i have the right to go steal one because its too damn expensive and i still want to drive one.
No, its not right to steal it. But most places will et you test drive the car so you can find out if you like it.

Edit: also, if you are applying real-world (in this case automobile) industry laws to this scenario from the consumer side, please do so from the producer side. Were I to buy a car, I would own it (and no, bank credit and all that do not factor into this discussion here).
Demos for games, and a lease isnt ownership nor is financing until after pay off. y are you analyzing the analogy? stop over thinking things dammit

This particular type of DRM is BS in every sense of the word. Pachter being the old man didn't get the point of what he was asked. and Piracy is wrong no matter how you look at it. sum of all that is said.
 

Acalla

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Dec 21, 2009
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Srdjan said:
If you are going to buy a game and you pirate it because it's cheaper, then you should buy it, but if you have no intention of buying game you should pirate it, and then if game proves to be a hidden gem then you should consider buying it. I have many games that I bought, but I only buy games that I like, and I go to upper method all the time.
I hear this a lot from people and yet, no one actually does it. They all say they do or will go buy the game but I have rarely seen it. Or they buy the game used (or on Steam for $2.49) years later to help satisfy that reason to pirate in the first place.

So what games have you pirated and then said, "Wow, this is a great game and worth every penny of my $60 bucks (assuming US prices)" and then went out and bought it?
 

Srdjan

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Mar 12, 2010
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Acalla said:
Srdjan said:
If you are going to buy a game and you pirate it because it's cheaper, then you should buy it, but if you have no intention of buying game you should pirate it, and then if game proves to be a hidden gem then you should consider buying it. I have many games that I bought, but I only buy games that I like, and I go to upper method all the time.
Well to be honest non of the games today worth that money but I bought Bioshock, Mass Effect and Dragon Age, of course I bought many indie games and other cheaper games I really liked.

I hear this a lot from people and yet, no one actually does it. They all say they do or will go buy the game but I have rarely seen it. Or they buy the game used (or on Steam for $2.49) years later to help satisfy that reason to pirate in the first place.

So what games have you pirated and then said, "Wow, this is a great game and worth every penny of my $60 bucks (assuming US prices)" and then went out and bought it?
 

Srdjan

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Mar 12, 2010
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Acalla said:
Srdjan said:
If you are going to buy a game and you pirate it because it's cheaper, then you should buy it, but if you have no intention of buying game you should pirate it, and then if game proves to be a hidden gem then you should consider buying it. I have many games that I bought, but I only buy games that I like, and I go to upper method all the time.
Well to be honest non of the games today worth that money but I bought Bioshock, Mass Effect and Dragon Age, of course I bought many indie games and other cheaper games I really liked.

I hear this a lot from people and yet, no one actually does it. They all say they do or will go buy the game but I have rarely seen it. Or they buy the game used (or on Steam for $2.49) years later to help satisfy that reason to pirate in the first place.

So what games have you pirated and then said, "Wow, this is a great game and worth every penny of my $60 bucks (assuming US prices)" and then went out and bought it?
 

Srdjan

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Mar 12, 2010
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WTF it won't comment, it just keep posting blank and quote.

To answer question, I don't find any of newer games worth that money but I have bought Dragon Age, Bioshock and Mass Effect, also I bought many indie or other cheaper games I really liked.
 

geizr

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Oct 9, 2008
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Therumancer said:
geizr said:

Okay first off, I will say that I do not consider "Robin Hood" type heroes or anything of the sort. On this I agree with you, and feel that piracy is wrong... despite the gaming industry being a corrupt group of crooks themselves.

This is why I always refer to the game industry and pirates going at it as being the mafia, and a bunch of gang bangers duking it out. Neither side is right, or has any kind of moral high ground. It's the legitimate users that suffer from the fallout.

That said, Ubisoft neither has a legal or moral right to what they are doing. When it comes to these EULAs and DRMs, basically what they are doing is theft just as much as what the pirates are doing. They are functionally wrangling for a legal way to take your money and not be obligated to give you anything in return. That's what a lot of what they're doing amounts to, and that's functionally what the EULAs say, even if they are not binding contracts (despite the fact that they are trying to find ways of making them so).
...
I'll admit that my statement of morality should have been rephrased as "even possible moral." Be that as it may, Ubisoft does indeed have a legal right to control and protect the distribution of their intellectual property. However, we, as customers, are in our legal right to not buy it if we feel we are needlessly inconvenienced(which we are) or that the product has been devalued(which it has). Ubisoft can't force you to buy their product(that would require illegal and potentially immoral actions), and there are other games by companies not trying so hard to rip off gamers from which you can purchase games.

Getting mad and in a huff over Ubisoft's actions(to be clear, I have no sympathy for them if they go bankrupt tomorrow, cause I think what they are doing is a really awful way to treat paying customers) doesn't necessarily accomplish anything. As I wrote in another post, a company only hears and understands two sounds, the creak of wallets opening to give them money and the slap of wallets closing to withhold money from them. Anything else is likely to be ignored as random noise. In other words, as a customer, if you don't like it, don't buy it; buy something else, but don't pirate.

However, I will say that, as a customer, if you want to be the Robin Hood in this scenario, your primary recourse there is to inform other potential customers of the dangers they may face in purchasing from Ubisoft, assuming you've actually purchased the game and suffered as a result. I would suspect many, if not most, gamers are more trusting of other gamers' opinions(especially those who have PLAYED the game) regarding the quality of experience in a game than they do game reviewers or the advertisements for games(at least this is true for us old timers who have learned to not believe the hype). Most businesses seem to significantly underestimate or under-value word-of-mouth advertising, otherwise known as PR. Engendering bad PR by creating draconian DRM systems can cause a significant loss of sales as potential new customers are made wary of purchasing their product. In this sense, you cause additional closing "slaps" of the wallet, which a company actually hears and, if wisely run, will pay attention.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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DTWolfwood said:
I agree with what pachter said too, however i've said this over and over again, he totally failed to answer question posed to him and that is what he thinks about Ubisoft's particular brand of DRM. not whether there should be DRM.

always funny to see pirates think its "right" to steal games. Look if u cant afforded it, don't play it. I cant afford a BMW M3 which means i dont drive one. it doesnt mean i have the right to go steal one because its too damn expensive and i still want to drive one.
If you could copy the car, so that the owner gets to keep it and no insurance company is paying anything out, would you do that?

I don't wish to argue a moral standpoint(and I wish it to be known that I pay for my games), but I can't quite convince myself that downloading some copied data and stealing someones car are the same thing...because they're clearly not.
 

Acalla

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Dec 21, 2009
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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I don't wish to argue a moral standpoint(and I wish it to be known that I pay for my games), but I can't quite convince myself that downloading some copied data and stealing someones car are the same thing...because they're clearly not.
But to the people that created the game and rely on the income it generates to put food on their table, they are.
 

Dastardly

Imaginary Friend
Apr 19, 2010
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We all have a pretty firm grasp on all the things that the gaming industry is doing wrong. Their expectations on profit-per-box-sold are growing faster than the actual quality of their product. And to feed this habit, they're clamping down on the wrong folks.

The problem is that we, the consumers, are not communicating this fact to them. We're arguing in circles, and the responsibility is on US to fix it--with our voices and our dollars. If we're going to establish this dialogue, we've got to change our understanding of a few key terms (and eliminate more than one false dichotomy).

1) "Right," "Wrong," and "A Bad Idea"

We throw around the words "right" and "wrong" more than we should. The problem is that their accuracy depends on what you're MEASURING by. When I come up against a problem with DRM, I feel "wronged," but did the company actually do anything morally wrong?

No. If I buy a season pass to most amusement parks, and it rains on one of the days I show up, they don't refund the whole pass. I can try another day. If I buy a lifetime pass to a gym, and that gym closes down after a couple years, they don't refund the whole pass. Some of these are things we deal with as consumers, and it's not WRONG.

Now, with overly-restrictive DRM, we can argue that it's "a bad idea." It represents stupid choices on the part of the company, there are better ideas out there, and it will cause them to lose business... but it's not WRONG from a moral or legal standpoint. It's like stamping out a kitchen fire with a bag of money--bad idea, costs you more than you're saving, but it's not "wrong."

2) "Rights," "Privileges," and what you're REALLY buying.

Be very careful how you use the word "rights." If something is truly a "right," it has no conditions--it is afforded to you in all situations. You have the right to a fair trial, no matter how guilty you look or how heinous the crime was, for instance. An unconditional entitlement.

Anything that has any sort of condition is a privilege, plain and simple. Your ability to go where you will is a privilege, the condition being that you obey the laws of the land. Otherwise, that privilege is revoked and you're kept in jail.

As a consumer, you have the right to get what you have paid for, and you have the right to choose what you will and will not buy and from whom. That's it. Those are your rights. They're very few, but very important. Where we go wrong is a misunderstanding about how these work.

When I go to Busch Gardens and buy a ticket for admission, that is what I am buying--a ticket for admission. I'm not buying "a good time." I'm not buying "a ride on coasters X, Y, and Z." I'm buying a ticket that allows me to enter the park during normal business hours. Anything else that I expect is not something that is necessarily guaranteed (unless such a guarantee is expressly posted at the time of purchase).

So, if I go in there and half the rides break down, or the guy that does the caricatures is out sick, or there is no more Icee stand, that's my own tough luck. I can either try to enjoy what's there, or I can leave and maybe REQUEST a refund. And if I'm not satisfied with the park's handling of things, I never have to come back again. But at no point in this transaction did Busch Gardens ever cheat me--I received the product for which I paid: a ticket for admission to the park.

Now, if I buy a box of cereal and it says there's a prize inside... and I go home and open it to find there is no prize inside... now my rights as a consumer HAVE been violated. I did not get what I paid for, as per the packaging. I can DEMAND that the company address this--and they can choose to do so by giving me a refund or by providing the missing prize at their own expense.

When you buy a game, even one with restrictive DRM, you're purchasing a box filled with a working copy of the software. You're not purchasing a gameplay experience. You're not purchasing a trouble-free installation. You bought the disk. If the disk works and installs the game presented on the package, you've gotten what you've paid for. If an EA-style DRM keeps you from playing it, or your ISP interferes, these are all unpleasant. But your rights are not being violated, unfortunately. You bought a product. You didn't buy "enjoyment" of that product. Most importantly, you're not buying the RIGHT to do anything--your rights are as a consumer, not a user.

Think of it this way--you bought a helicopter, but that doesn't mean it automatically comes with permission to use the airspace anytime you like. Weather, air traffic control, fuel costs, all of these things can interfere... but your rights aren't being violated.

Now, if in all of this you feel you are not getting your money's worth, you can REQUEST a refund, and perhaps most importantly you can withhold your dollars from that company in the future.

THE PROBLEM HERE:

You don't have a right to play the game. If the ONLY company that makes the game you want is a company that you can't stand to do business with, your choices are two: suck it up and play, or forgo that game in the interest of principle.

You see, the companies have a right, too. They have a right to receive payment for products and services rendered. If you installed the game, they have the right to payment. If you're unhappy with your game experience, that's a bummer. As long as you received those things which were advertised, you have not been stolen from, cheated, lied to, or wronged.

So, if you're pirating to "teach them a lesson about consumer rights," the only one violating any rights is YOU. Go ahead, do it, whatever--but be HONEST about it.

"I stole this game because I wanted it, but I did not want to pay for it." Period. However noble your reasons for withholding the cash, the result is the same. You stole it. And in doing so, you lost any credibility you could have had in the argument to do away with overly-restrictive DRM.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Acalla said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I don't wish to argue a moral standpoint(and I wish it to be known that I pay for my games), but I can't quite convince myself that downloading some copied data and stealing someones car are the same thing...because they're clearly not.
But to the people that created the game and rely on the income it generates to put food on their table, they are.
Is that strictly right? I would imagine that the people who work for any given company will be drawing salaries, not working all year round with the vague hope of collecting some commission when a game is released(which unless you're EA or activision, may be 2 or 3 years...which just doesn't add up). It might damage returns on investments and harm the company, but the people who are doing the creating are surely getting paid.

That really wasn't my point though, and I'd like to again stress that I am not a pirate. But data and a car aren't the same thing.
 

geizr

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Oct 9, 2008
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dastardly said:
We all have a pretty firm grasp on all the things that the gaming industry is doing wrong. Their expectations on profit-per-box-sold are growing faster than the actual quality of their product. And to feed this habit, they're clamping down on the wrong folks.

The problem is that we, the consumers, are not communicating this fact to them. We're arguing in circles, and the responsibility is on US to fix it--with our voices and our dollars. If we're going to establish this dialogue, we've got to change our understanding of a few key terms (and eliminate more than one false dichotomy).

1) "Right," "Wrong," and "A Bad Idea"

We throw around the words "right" and "wrong" more than we should. The problem is that their accuracy depends on what you're MEASURING by. When I come up against a problem with DRM, I feel "wronged," but did the company actually do anything morally wrong?

No. If I buy a season pass to most amusement parks, and it rains on one of the days I show up, they don't refund the whole pass. I can try another day. If I buy a lifetime pass to a gym, and that gym closes down after a couple years, they don't refund the whole pass. Some of these are things we deal with as consumers, and it's not WRONG.

Now, with overly-restrictive DRM, we can argue that it's "a bad idea." It represents stupid choices on the part of the company, there are better ideas out there, and it will cause them to lose business... but it's not WRONG from a moral or legal standpoint. It's like stamping out a kitchen fire with a bag of money--bad idea, costs you more than you're saving, but it's not "wrong."

2) "Rights," "Privileges," and what you're REALLY buying.

Be very careful how you use the word "rights." If something is truly a "right," it has no conditions--it is afforded to you in all situations. You have the right to a fair trial, no matter how guilty you look or how heinous the crime was, for instance. An unconditional entitlement.

Anything that has any sort of condition is a privilege, plain and simple. Your ability to go where you will is a privilege, the condition being that you obey the laws of the land. Otherwise, that privilege is revoked and you're kept in jail.

As a consumer, you have the right to get what you have paid for, and you have the right to choose what you will and will not buy and from whom. That's it. Those are your rights. They're very few, but very important. Where we go wrong is a misunderstanding about how these work.

When I go to Busch Gardens and buy a ticket for admission, that is what I am buying--a ticket for admission. I'm not buying "a good time." I'm not buying "a ride on coasters X, Y, and Z." I'm buying a ticket that allows me to enter the park during normal business hours. Anything else that I expect is not something that is necessarily guaranteed (unless such a guarantee is expressly posted at the time of purchase).

So, if I go in there and half the rides break down, or the guy that does the caricatures is out sick, or there is no more Icee stand, that's my own tough luck. I can either try to enjoy what's there, or I can leave and maybe REQUEST a refund. And if I'm not satisfied with the park's handling of things, I never have to come back again. But at no point in this transaction did Busch Gardens ever cheat me--I received the product for which I paid: a ticket for admission to the park.

Now, if I buy a box of cereal and it says there's a prize inside... and I go home and open it to find there is no prize inside... now my rights as a consumer HAVE been violated. I did not get what I paid for, as per the packaging. I can DEMAND that the company address this--and they can choose to do so by giving me a refund or by providing the missing prize at their own expense.

When you buy a game, even one with restrictive DRM, you're purchasing a box filled with a working copy of the software. You're not purchasing a gameplay experience. You're not purchasing a trouble-free installation. You bought the disk. If the disk works and installs the game presented on the package, you've gotten what you've paid for. If an EA-style DRM keeps you from playing it, or your ISP interferes, these are all unpleasant. But your rights are not being violated, unfortunately. You bought a product. You didn't buy "enjoyment" of that product. Most importantly, you're not buying the RIGHT to do anything--your rights are as a consumer, not a user.

Think of it this way--you bought a helicopter, but that doesn't mean it automatically comes with permission to use the airspace anytime you like. Weather, air traffic control, fuel costs, all of these things can interfere... but your rights aren't being violated.

Now, if in all of this you feel you are not getting your money's worth, you can REQUEST a refund, and perhaps most importantly you can withhold your dollars from that company in the future.

THE PROBLEM HERE:

You don't have a right to play the game. If the ONLY company that makes the game you want is a company that you can't stand to do business with, your choices are two: suck it up and play, or forgo that game in the interest of principle.

You see, the companies have a right, too. They have a right to receive payment for products and services rendered. If you installed the game, they have the right to payment. If you're unhappy with your game experience, that's a bummer. As long as you received those things which were advertised, you have not been stolen from, cheated, lied to, or wronged.

So, if you're pirating to "teach them a lesson about consumer rights," the only one violating any rights is YOU. Go ahead, do it, whatever--but be HONEST about it.

"I stole this game because I wanted it, but I did not want to pay for it." Period. However noble your reasons for withholding the cash, the result is the same. You stole it. And in doing so, you lost any credibility you could have had in the argument to do away with overly-restrictive DRM.
Underlined, bolded, and strung in flaming, neon lights to out-shine the sun. This is exactly what people, gamers and techies especially, need to understand.
 

Acalla

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Dec 21, 2009
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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Acalla said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I don't wish to argue a moral standpoint(and I wish it to be known that I pay for my games), but I can't quite convince myself that downloading some copied data and stealing someones car are the same thing...because they're clearly not.
But to the people that created the game and rely on the income it generates to put food on their table, they are.
Is that strictly right? I would imagine that the people who work for any given company will be drawing salaries, not working all year round with the vague hope of collecting some commission when a game is released(which unless you're EA or activision, may be 2 or 3 years...which just doesn't add up). It might damage returns on investments and harm the company, but the people who are doing the creating are surely getting paid.

That really wasn't my point though, and I'd like to again stress that I am not a pirate. But data and a car aren't the same thing.
True, but if the game does not sell well then the studio might not get new funding for another project and lay-off the people that were drawing that salary.

And yah I agree, data is not the same as a car... but they aren't even in the same ballpark in price either. Lets just look at media then and say, if you steal a DVD to get a movie or d/l that movie off the Internet, you still have stolen the data. The physical DVD is just about worthless compared to the data that is on it. So what is the difference? Just because you can put it in your pocket? I have to admit, even while writing this, I find it hard to say they are the same. There is something inside me that says having that physical copy is inherently more valuable then just the data. But the truth of it is, the data is the part that give me the entertainment and, therefore, is the valuable part.

I understand you don't pirate, so I am not trying to pick on your stance... just using your post as a jumping off point.
 

Xanthious

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Dec 25, 2008
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The reality of the situation is this. These companies like Ubisoft, EA, and the like have deluded themselves into thinking they can come out on top in this skirmish. Hell Ubisoft still refuses to admit their most recent DRM was cracked. The reality is they are now to the point where they are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The most recent debacle with Ubisoft demonstrates this perfectly.

Companies are getting so single minded about stopping pirates that they are angering their honest and legitimate customers. And to what end? Ultimately the pirates do what they must to crack the games. In the case of Assassin's Creed 2 they DDOS'd the servers to get codes causing a couple weekends worth of down time for a good many of Ubisoft's customers. Now it's not hard to guess who the average customer was angry at because they couldn't play their game. In the end of it all Assassin's Creed 2 was cracked and Ubisoft was left with a cracked game and a lot of angry people who went days w/o being able to play their games.

Pirates, as a whole, operate anonymously in a world without consequences. They don't care who they piss off or what they have to do in order to crack the next big game. The same can't be said for the publishers. The sooner these companies learn they will end up driving away their legitimate customers well before they drive off the pirates with these crazy DRM schemes the better the industry as a whole will be. There are some companies like Stardock, Blizzard, and Valve that "get it" and others are still fighting a battle they can't hope to win.
 

The Lunatic

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Jun 3, 2010
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DRM simple doesn't work currently.

As it stands, people buying the games are better off cracking it.

I'm no hardcore pirate, I'll buy games if they take my fancy. I was one of the few people who actually bought spore apparently.

Was it worth it? Nope. But, well, there you go.

I've pirated a few games however, and, if it wasn't for me doing so, it's unlikely I would have bought others.

Ultimately, if it wasn't for piracy, a few of the games I own today, I would not do.

On the flip side, would have I bought games I wasn't sure of if piracy didn't exist? No, probably not.

Not to say "Piracy is helping!". But, from first hand experience, I'm spending more money due to it.

The only advice I'd really give to these companies, is rather than spending thousands on a DRM which gets cracked within a few days, to maybe a week if you're lucky, spend it on improving the game.

People who want a game for free, will get a game for free, that's just how it is. You shouldn't waste resources which you could be spending on improving your games on systems which get cracked very quickly.
 

DTWolfwood

Better than Vash!
Oct 20, 2009
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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
DTWolfwood said:
I agree with what pachter said too, however i've said this over and over again, he totally failed to answer question posed to him and that is what he thinks about Ubisoft's particular brand of DRM. not whether there should be DRM.

always funny to see pirates think its "right" to steal games. Look if u cant afforded it, don't play it. I cant afford a BMW M3 which means i dont drive one. it doesnt mean i have the right to go steal one because its too damn expensive and i still want to drive one.
If you could copy the car, so that the owner gets to keep it and no insurance company is paying anything out, would you do that?

I don't wish to argue a moral standpoint(and I wish it to be known that I pay for my games), but I can't quite convince myself that downloading some copied data and stealing someones car are the same thing...because they're clearly not.
so i guess plagarism, copyright, trademark, and patent infringements aren't stealing?

yep your absolutely right, i cant quite grasp y me downloading data, that some1 made and is selling, for free doesn't equate to me taking a car, that some1 made and is selling, for free as stealing. Yep totally different. Sorry to have posted.

Here lemme teach you a new word.
Metaphor: a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity

Btw you can copy a car, take existing vin number and stamp it on a different car of same make and model (usually done on a wrecked car that was fixed, aka a lemon). Boom car copied, clearly ILLEGAL.
 

The Lunatic

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Jun 3, 2010
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Archangel357 said:
Anybody who defends piracy should be flogged. As a university TA, I am not a wealthy man; however, I buy original games with my money. When you pre-order console titles from amazon.co.uk or sites like that, prices are reasonable, as far as I'm concerned; as for PC games, they're fairly cheap already, and if you wait a few months, you can easily get a AAA title like Dragon Age: Origins for ten quid. At that point, justifying piracy becomes really hard. Ten quid are three fucking beers at the pub. Anybody can afford that.
You're right, and I'm not defending piracy, however, the pricing for some games a bit much these days.

Take the new Call of Duty for example.

With a RRP of £55 ($80) it's asking a bit much for a game which contains about a year's work. Not to say "So piracy is the only option!", but, I can't blame people for not wanting to pay that much for something like that.

If you want to avoid piracy, then bringing the price down is one step, especially with games which are going to make hundreds of millions of profit like the new CoD will, it'll also improve the gaming experience for those who don't fancy tolerating DRM.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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DTWolfwood said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
DTWolfwood said:
I agree with what pachter said too, however i've said this over and over again, he totally failed to answer question posed to him and that is what he thinks about Ubisoft's particular brand of DRM. not whether there should be DRM.

always funny to see pirates think its "right" to steal games. Look if u cant afforded it, don't play it. I cant afford a BMW M3 which means i dont drive one. it doesnt mean i have the right to go steal one because its too damn expensive and i still want to drive one.
If you could copy the car, so that the owner gets to keep it and no insurance company is paying anything out, would you do that?

I don't wish to argue a moral standpoint(and I wish it to be known that I pay for my games), but I can't quite convince myself that downloading some copied data and stealing someones car are the same thing...because they're clearly not.
so i guess plagarism, copyright, trademark, and patent infringements aren't stealing?

yep your absolutely right, i cant quite grasp y me downloading data, that some1 made and is selling, for free doesn't equate to me taking a car, that some1 made and is selling, for free as stealing. Yep totally different. Sorry to have posted.

Here lemme teach you a new word.
Metaphor: a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity

Btw you can copy a car, take existing vin number and stamp it on a different car of same make and model (usually done on a wrecked car that was fixed, aka a lemon). Boom car copied, clearly ILLEGAL.
I was trying to further the discussion, you don't need to give me attitude about it. Perhaps your immaturity is why you see all of the examples you have given as exactly the same, when they're not. The immature mind loves absolutes and bundling things in together, that's why we have assholes on every forum who completely need for either the 360 or the ps3 to be clearly the better console.

Have you ever read an article in a newspaper or a magazine without having paid for it? If you have you have broken the law by your very strict definition of what theft is. Someone you know might have bought the newspaper, but you have consumed the data on the page without the writer being compensated, if I caught you doing it and called you out on it...you'd accuse me of being ridiculous, because in this instance we only see the physical product as being valuable. Which is somewhat of a double standard.

It's principly the same as buying a game and then copying it(or even just installing it on another machine) so your brother or friend can play it too, but that is illegal, industry destroying behaviour that the newspaper industry(which is dying, not flourishing like the gaming industry)apparently has no case to complain about.

The rules apparently don't work across the board, there is a very definite grey area, I certainly don't see how you can deal in absolutes with this issue. It begs the question, are we letting people in the industry(with obvious bias) tell us how we should feel about the issue, or are we reasoning for ourselves?

I'm not sure you are grasping what a copy is, it's something out of nothing, not the same as putting new plates and serials on a shitty car and selling it(which would be fraud, not theft, as would your plagieurism example).

I really wasn't trying to get at you or make you look stupid, I was encouraging you to explain yourself further. I don't know why you responded so aggressively. Shall we go back to civil discussion?