This is Why Criticizing Anita Sarkheesian is Irrelevant and Pointless

[Stavros Dimou]

SHE IS A BIG TROLL. WHY ARE YOU FEEDING HER ?
She is a pretender,a hypocrite,that makes stuff out of her mind and presents them as facts,and when you are just stating that its all on her mind she calls you a patriarchical hater.
She's been a huge lier and very bad person,and instead of admitting that she is trolling she calls other people chauvinists for their reactions to her big fat lies.
Everybody please lie and pretend the world isn't as it is to make her happy.


This guy nailed her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25o0EZiogw0

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

EDIT v2: just found it, she actually tweeted half an hour into EA's presentation.

Thought EA presentation was at 1pm and her tweet at 2:47...

Like I said, JUST wrong enough...

According to the site linked on the first page her tweet was at 8:37 pm UTC, which puts it at 1:37 pm PDT while, like you said, the EA presentation was at 1 pm. So no, not wrong at all.

 

[spoonybard.hahs]

She eventually mentions Mirror's Edge 2 and the female presenter for Bungie a few hours later.

That said, I don't like her. She's schizophrenic when it comes to her mission statement and what she actually says and does. Yes, she is inflammatory. Maybe not on purpose; her delivery and arguments are lazy and clumsy. But you can't deny she gets a happy when she pokes the hornets' nest and posts her "win."

There's a video where she "reviewed" or "critiqued" [http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/01/kanye-wests-monster-misogyny/] Kanye West's video for his song, "Monster."

She claims this video is an expression of the Drop Dead Gorgeous trope [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DropDeadGorgeous]. The song is actually a condemnation of how rap and hip-hop culture treats women. The dead white women versus monstrous black women is a comment on how society polarizes the gender of either race, and how rap/hip-hop furthers that. Many times throughout the song, West sings, "I am a monster." He is not bragging; he is expressing that he is not okay with this. He is fully aware that he is part of the problem.

Of course, she could be forgiven for not getting that. It's plausible that she knows precisely nothing about rap/hip-hop culture. But that begs the question of why she would even be talking about this in the first place (and also how can someone who talks about pop culture not

know a thing a two about rap). But early in her video, when says how this trope has been popping up a lot lately, she flashes the title graphic for Amanda Palmer's album, Who Killed Amanda Palmer?

For those of you who don't know Amanda Palmer, she's the former lead singer of the Dresden Dolls and current wife of Neil Gaiman.

She's also a feminist and this album is a cornucopia of feminist ideologies.

Sarkeesian tells her audience not to watch the video. To just take her word for it that it's as horrible as she says. I can understand her not wanting to show clips from the video for its explicit nature, but telling others to not watch it smacks of trying to rig the game. She presents a surface level of commentary, not bothering to dig, and then tells others that, "This is misogyny. This is wrong. Just believe me."

This is how she's inflammatory and this is exactly why her arguments in her video game videos are so terribly wrong. Tropes are surface cannon fodder; we can all (hopefully) identify them and (again, hopefully) explain exactly why they are wrong in any context. As we've learned very recently, the problem aren't the tropes. It's the industry and part of the culture. And rather than take the giant leap and analyze the culture itself or the industry, she tackles mundane story telling devices that have been used for centuries. Because it's easy, quick, and everyone regardless of exposure to video games can understand them, she can exploit them and present them as the Big Bad. Do tropes reinforce certain views? Yes. But they also shine a light on where the real problem is.

Regardless of what she says or how she approaches female representation in any medium, she's going to get inundated with trolls and assholes. Close your eyes and run, you'll eventually hit something. However, trolls and assholes do not mean she is right. Admitting you're an atheist or a Catholic in most forums will get you the same treatment.

She's also not a feminist. I'm sorry, but to suggest that segregation as a means to fix any problem immediately negates anything else you have to say.

I apologize for this tome of a post, but I've been needing to get this off my chest for a while now.

 

[Wyvern65]

Like when she trolled 4chan and left her comment section open just long enough for the trolls to show up and paint her as a martyr.

Do you have any proof that this happened or are you just like every other person who brings this rumor up without any evidence?

I'm well aware it's an unsubstantiated rumor; given the thrust of the rest of my arguments, it's clearly one I'm inclined to believe. Was the 'cynic' part at the start of my post unclear? Or the melodramatic sigh?

Its truth value doesn't have the least thing to do with an argument I've now elaborated over two posts, one which you chose to ignore, I'm not feeling compelled to do much beyond note that you are correct.

I did like the 'just like every other person' part; always nice to be part of a group.

Either address my main point (now made in two posts,) or feel free to ignore me.

 

[invadergir]

I'm surprised she didn't tweet about Ellen Page getting punched in the face. Female protagonists who play super agents who get punched in the face is misogyny.

That actually would have been funnier than what she actually did. Which was ignore the game completely.

 

[Uhura]

snip.

So no proof then.

@Xanex
How about you? Do you have any proof that she actually trolled 4chan?

 

[Xanex]

snip.

So no proof then.

@Xanex
How about you? Do you have any proof that she actually trolled 4chan?

If it wasn't her it was someone doing it on her behalf. You could link a video of kittens and puppies on 4chan and get rape and death threats in the comments. Kinda funny how here kickstarter was around for months and got next to no support. But suddenly someone starts posting links in 4chan and the trolls respond. Instant sympathy monies start raking in. So as many others have said(Hell even a clueless CNN reporter). DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!

 

[Angelblaze]

Ahahahahahahaha. She's a joke, "these reactions show the male privilege in the gaming community". It's like she's a cartoon figure. A cartoon damsel in distress at that, she can't help but show how much she's a victim of the ebil internet. Come on white knights rescue the damsel!

Playing the "White Knight Card" already? Sorry, but it's quickly becoming more a badge of honor than a shameful mark.

I mean, regardless of what one thinks of feminism today (relevance, methods, agenda, whatever) - how does exposing genuine sexism in a media, going deeper into the matter than anyone else, and making fairly intelligent arguments about it - make oneself a "cartoony damsel in distress?".

She has more than proven there is a dark, anti-woman side to the industry / fandom. How about adressing that, rather than trying to shame her and those women AND men who agree and support her into silence?

Ok where is the proven anti-woman side to the industry that she's shown.

And complaining that there were no women protagonists in the conference is not sexism it's just complaining that they aren't making games you want to see. It's no different than complaining about a lack of horror games (if there was a lack, I didn't see that conference).

The Remember Me scandal would be a good example. The game developers had to fight to keep the female protagonist. The Jimquisition's talked about this multiple times.

Or the Bioshock infinite cover. They didn't want the main female character on the front cover (although, that was tested so I will concede that one)

Or Last of Us, also wanted the main female character off the cover and put onto the back.

Recent episodes of Jimquisition help everything.

Or you know, some of the comments made about her. Most of them are made purely because she is a woman (I've never seen Glenn Beck or any male Fox news correspondent get rape threats en masse but they spout much more dangerous, terrorist level bullshit)

Honestly, for those of you saying that it's okay for her to get insulted because she just 'doesn't get it', I remember when the Nostalgia Critic didn't seem to get 'Last Action Hero' - go watch the review.

He didn't get rape threats.
He didn't have his video removed.
He certainly doesn't get half as many insults.
And none of them had to do with his gender.

I'm not even going into the topic of this 'feminist agenda' bs. Agenda is just a hot word to add some type of eeeeeeevil mystery bullshit to a group of ideals- you know what? An episode of Billy and Mandy already did that for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgv0DVSMB8g

 

[maddawg IAJI]

I think people are misunderstanding something. She did not feed the trolls. She is the troll. And a good one. Raging and insulting is not trolling. At least it wasn't.
The aim of trolling is to get an inadequate response. And she achieves it with just one message on twitter. Fascinating.
Using all the hate of stupid people to prove her point even more. Smart move.
I don't understand what there is to rage about. For a smart person. She has a point(doesn't mean she is always right), she stirs up the bowels of the internet, and maybe, as a result, we will see less cringe-worthy plots in games. Until I see some negative effects from her activity, I support her idea.
And it's fun to observe internet drama. Especially if she knowingly puts herself in front of the hate train and manages to gain momentum from it.

And it's not like she went for this low-hanging fruit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P75YQHFnyKY
Not particularly offensive, but fake, tasteless and retarded, considering all of the feminist backlashes of the last 6 months.

But there is a good reason to be against her. Her goal may not be bad but her methods are dangerous for gaming. Do you know who also links RL social issues with games like she does? Jack Thompson did, Hilary Clinton did and so many others who blame video games for RL violence. If we support Anita we de facto support all those other people who attacked video games based on the idea it has a crappy effect on RL attitudes. This is why by supporting Anita you're supporting anti-gaming attitudes. Hence why gamers who support her are traitors. They're betraying their community and hobby, why? Because of some White Knight attitude or egoism.

I'm calling bullshit on that one mate, largely because there is evidence that video games does have an effect on attitudes, but also because what you're arguing goes against EVERYTHING video gamers have been doing for the past 5 years.

Video Games are an art form and like any other art form, they're required to effect the observer in some way and evoke emotion and thought. That is what art is, they effect personalities and ways of thinking. What you're defending isn't art. What you're defending is just a hobby and nothing more.

Do I agree with Anita on all of her arguments? Of course not, but I do recognize that there is a problem within the industry regarding the place of Female characters and you'd be blind not to realize that hardcore gaming is a male dominated thing. But after what you just said, you have the audacity to call me the traitor for agreeing on a few points?

That is something that a lot of people aren't realizing here. You can like something and still recognize its flaws and work to fix those flaws.

 

[Uhura]

@Xanex

So you don't have any proof that it was her. It could have been her friend or someone who hated her or just some random bored person or Santa or...

According to the Kicktracker data, her project had reached the funding goal already during the first 2 days of the fundraising. In fact, on the day before that 4chan discussion you posted, the Trope Kickstarter had already raised 43k. So "next to no support" is not true.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/#chart-daily

 

[Sir. Jasper Colinwell]

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/5/56858/1302389-1246890_haruhi___not_this_shit_again_super.jpg
And with that i'm done.
I'm done, i can't take it anymore and i don't want to. As far as i can see, this will never go anywhere. Because as long as people like Anita sit and complain instead of taking ACTUAL action then we'll remain here in this painful Leftist Circle Jerk. We will always blur the lines between what is offensive and what is being taken out of context because there isn't even a line to establish. If you want someone to stop kicking you in the stomach then you need to break their leg, you DO NOT politely ask that they stop as they continue to. It's just as well either way, Anita has never been one to actually want change, she just sits there and complains, which is a pretty bad look for actual feminists who want to change things. I no longer care about her poorly fleshed arguments because they're are all things you could explain to a 5th Grader and they could understand. Call me when the feminists make a move as big as Fat, Ugly, & Slutty or when more Black Men as Protagonists show up and then we can talk.
http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24180000/ngbbs503823d293964.jpg

 

[TomPreston]

http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games

She can pretty much film herself juggling fruit in her basement and as long as the title of her video touches on how much sexism there is in the culture, then she has a legitimate point. I don't want to imply that criticism of her points/videos is invalid or unwelcome on all accounts, but breaking down her style of delivery sort of strikes me as imprudent and short-sighted, like trying to find grammatical errors in Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream Speech."

You know, when someone points out an obvious sexist issue and then is met with attacks of actual sexism "just because" you do realize that there is a problem there, right? Gaming hasn't grown up at all and sexism against women is extraordinarily prevalent. This is not a fantasy, it's a fact.

Had anyone else pointed out her same point, no one would've batted an eye. But because she's one of those "evil feminists" suddenly she's being hit with tons and tons of real life sexism and hate speech.

I know people don't like Anita, but the way people react around her anytime she so much as twitches a finger is hilariously stupid. Grow up and realize that YES, there are problems in the games industry and with a lot of gamers. It's OK to admit it. No one is gonna take your previous games away from you. You can still like something while admitting there's a problem. These things can co-exist. We don't need these sexist knee-jerk reactions every time she points out the painfully obvious.

 

[Wyvern65]

snip.

So no proof then.

You clearly have little interest in engaging me in an actual discussion, which is certainly your right.

I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.

Whether or not Anita trolled 4chan is unprovable. Quite possibly it's an evil character smear put out by her ideological opponents to discredit her.

Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.

In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Since when did apathy or ignorance decisively show privilege or entitlement?

Ever since the internet learned of that word's existence last year.
"Entitlement" has been cropping up as a generic "Catch-all" pseudo-insult due to its popularized negative connotation.

It's being misused. A lot. Like in those twitter comments.

While most of those comments are negative, dismissive, hateful and some downright misogynistic, not a single one of them is actually "entitled".

And for those of you ready to defend the misuse of the word here keep in mind:
1) Disagreement with Anita does not equate to misogyny. And even if that were magicked into being true...
2) Misogyny itself does not equate to "male entitlement". Misogyny literally just means "hatred of women".

(While unlikely, a woman can in fact be misogynistic. Therefore, "male entitlement" is not automatically implied, since said woman could be indifferent, favorable, or even hateful of men as well.)

I couldn't even get past the first page of this topic's responses without seeing its misuse.

Or are we just taking advantage of people less educated/intelligent/compassionate(lol) than ourselves?

Given the general ignorance on display, and the fact that the topic is trying to excuse Sarkeessian's work from criticism because "assholes exist" (*glares at topic title*), I'm guessing you're correct here.

 

[Uhura]

I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.

There is nothing disingenuous in pointing out that people who spread the 4chan rumor do not actually have any proof that she did any trolling. Look, you have joined the forums only a month ago and I'm not sure if you have followed the Anita discussion before you joined, but the 4chan rumor is one the most common things people bring up when they want to attack Anita or dismiss the abuse she received. The argument is always "she had it coming, she trolled 4chan", and those posts are most of the time followed by other comments about how fucking stupid Sarkeesian is for trolling 4chan.

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.

Trolled? Really? Since the Xbox One reveal in May, people have been bashing Xbox and Microsoft for their anti-consumer business practices, for the design of the console, for the name of the console and for whatever else they can think of. It's been one of the most popular punching bags on these forums and pretty much on any other gaming site for weeks. Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.

A hero? Oh come on.

 

[Schadrach]

The man's love of a woman, determination to protect her and avenge her when she dies is not Sarkeesian's issue, her issue is when, in the form of story telling, that becomes the only role the female lead has and never has a role or agency beyond that. It makes her not really a character or even an active part in the story as much as she is just an extension of the main character. This in turn doesn't create a particularly relatable character for female audiences and certainly not a role model to aspire to. Women want to actually be participants in a story, not the motivational device for someone else's story.

No, this is what somewhat more reasonable people think her issue should be, when looking at it through a set of blinder that ignores what she actually says. A good example: Quick show of hands, who hear would suggest that Angel has no agency within Borderlands? Who hear would claim that women with in the series lack characterization or agency in general?

Now, who hear wants to bet that Anita will complain about Moxxi at some point before it's all over, since she's already complained about Angel?

She too often makes complaints about things that sound kind of true in the most technical sense possible (read: technically not quite lying) so long as you aren't actually familiar with the work in question.

She was even called on it in a CNN interview and she couldn't even respond to the reporter.

I want a link to this. It would be handy for my pile of links to reference on teh internets.

Scummy reponses from scummy people (the twitter trolls), but it's pretty tiresome how she pretends its because she is a woman criticising games, rather than an issue people have with her specifically as an individual. She has a persecution complex of an almost astounding degree, or else she is just a very clever and manipulative person.

I would guess the latter. Especially given how she's managed to turn "I baited 4chan" into essentially professional victimhood.

People go onto twitter and tell celebrities that they wish that their kids would get cancer and other nasty things, it doesn't "prove" anything at all. Except that anonymity causes people to act nastily, which most of us have known for years.

Welcome to the internet's greatest GIFT. You know, the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (also known as the online dis-inhibition effect, though even researchers sometimes refer to it as GIFT).

She is completely blinkered by sexism and is incapable of looking at anything beyond it.

She has no reason to. Sexism is what the target audience wants to see.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

The man's love of a woman, determination to protect her and avenge her when she dies is not Sarkeesian's issue, her issue is when, in the form of story telling, that becomes the only role the female lead has and never has a role or agency beyond that. It makes her not really a character or even an active part in the story as much as she is just an extension of the main character. This in turn doesn't create a particularly relatable character for female audiences and certainly not a role model to aspire to. Women want to actually be participants in a story, not the motivational device for someone else's story.

No, this is what somewhat more reasonable people think her issue should be, when looking at it through a set of blinder that ignores what she actually says. A good example: Quick show of hands, who hear would suggest that Angel has no agency within Borderlands? Who hear would claim that women with in the series lack characterization or agency in general?

Now, who hear wants to bet that Anita will complain about Moxxi at some point before it's all over, since she's already complained about Angel?

She too often makes complaints about things that sound kind of true in the most technical sense possible (read: technically not quite lying) so long as you aren't actually familiar with the work in question.

She was even called on it in a CNN interview and she couldn't even respond to the reporter.

I want a link to this. It would be handy for my pile of links to reference on teh internets.

Scummy reponses from scummy people (the twitter trolls), but it's pretty tiresome how she pretends its because she is a woman criticising games, rather than an issue people have with her specifically as an individual. She has a persecution complex of an almost astounding degree, or else she is just a very clever and manipulative person.

I would guess the latter. Especially given how she's managed to turn "I baited 4chan" into essentially professional victimhood.

People go onto twitter and tell celebrities that they wish that their kids would get cancer and other nasty things, it doesn't "prove" anything at all. Except that anonymity causes people to act nastily, which most of us have known for years.

Welcome to the internet's greatest GIFT. You know, the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (also known as the online dis-inhibition effect, though even researchers sometimes refer to it as GIFT).

She is completely blinkered by sexism and is incapable of looking at anything beyond it.

She has no reason to. Sexism is what the target audience wants to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWIefam53E

Here's a link it's the ONLY video I could find of her on CNN news.
Her facial expression is at 5:20

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.

There is nothing disingenuous in pointing out that people who spread the 4chan rumor do not actually have any proof that she did any trolling. Look, you have joined the forums only a month ago and I'm not sure if you have followed the Anita discussion before you joined, but the 4chan rumor is one the most common things people bring up when they want to attack Anita or dismiss the abuse she received. The argument is always "she had it coming, she trolled 4chan", and those posts are most of the time followed by other comments about how fucking stupid Sarkeesian is for trolling 4chan.

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.

Trolled? Really? Since the Xbox One reveal in May, people have been bashing Xbox and Microsoft for their anti-consumer business practices, for the design of the console, for the name of the console and for whatever else they can think of. It's been one of the most popular punching bags on these forums and pretty much on any other gaming site for weeks. Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.

A hero? Oh come on.

I am going to double post, because I am going to LOL after you watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWIefam53E

She clearly is trolling just watcher facial expression at 5:20.
IF you ever deny it now after this point... well yeah.

 

[Uhura]

@The-Taveling-Bard

Seriously, a facial expression? That's all you got?

 

[Wyvern65]

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

Except I never made that argument. I don't think the abuse she's received is in any way excusable. I went out of my way in my second post to categorize it as vile because I realized I failed to do so sufficiently in my first post. I just assumed that everyone already agreed that it was. I seem to be naive in that regard.

Obviously I can't speak to what happened here before I arrived. You're attributing malice where there is none.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Again, you're characterizing my motivations and without bothering to check what they are. I have no problem admitting to ignorance. I have no problem with being proven wrong. It happens with tedious frequency.

I accepted that graphic, which I had seen in an earlier thread, uncritically. I'd thank you for pointing it out to me and making me examine it, but I suspect you'd read it as either being condescending or patronizing.

Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Of course, that's exactly what I said. Stop doing that, please.

Anita did not 'just' post an innocent criticism of Xbox One. [And I'd say she was criticizing the Microsoft press conference, not the console itself, but I suppose it could be read either way.]

She is a high profile feminist, whose views are highly divisive within the gaming community. She posted a pointed criticism about lack of gender representation to two high-profile twitter feeds. She then collected the inevitable outrage, removed all context from it, and publicized it. I believe that those actions say something about her character. You can mischaracterize my argument all you like but it's fairly straightforward.

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

Yes, that's clearly the argument I was making.

She is not nearly as much of an ingenue as you are portraying her as. Frankly, I think you're insulting her clear media savvy by even pretending she could possibly fail to know precisely how her comments would be received.

I have a modicum of respect for your intelligence. It would be nice if you displayed a modicum for mine, and either moved beyond Debate 101 type tactics or simply consigned me to the dustbin of the unsavable.