Trump Town Hall Disaster

fOx

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I've read your posts; and frankly I think most of them are the kind of bullshit that gives the political left a bad name.
I'm not sure how. From what I can tell, I'm the only leftist on this entire board. I guess it's just a result of the skewed american view of the left right paradigm. It's even worse then the skewed view of what we pretend is "democracy." By the standards of most places, you're all supporting a solidly right leaning candidate.
 

Gordon_4

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I'm not sure how. From what I can tell, I'm the only leftist on this entire board. I guess it's just a result of the skewed american view of the left right paradigm. It's even worse then the skewed view of what we pretend is "democracy." By the standards of most places, you're all supporting a solidly right leaning candidate.
I’m from Australia, and my family are from Ireland and the North of England. I know left wing when I see it. But I’ve got no time for revolutionary romanticism from people behind keyboards.
 

fOx

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I’m from Australia, and my family are from Ireland and the North of England. I know left wing when I see it. But I’ve got no time for revolutionary romanticism from people behind keyboards.
Man, gryph is right, the irony IS strong.

Radical centrism strikes again.
 

fOx

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Nothing is ever going to change as long as people continue to support a structure that is specifically designed not to change
 
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lil devils x

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Nothing is ever going to change as long as people continue to support a structure that is specifically designed not to change
The only constant IS change. Things change all the time, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is correct in "Real change, enduring change, happens one step at a time."
You not understanding that does not mean it doesn't happen.

You have to understand how to get from point A to point B. You are not looking at the cause and effect of what you do. What is the end goal of the changes you propose? What is your step by step plan to accomplish these changes? Saying " tear it all down" doesn't help you build anything. It just makes a pile of shit and everything goes to shit and everything is worse for everyone rather than anything actually being better for anyone.
 
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fOx

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The only constant IS change. Things change all the time, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is correct in "Real change, enduring change, happens one step at a time."
You not understanding that does not mean it doesn't happen.

You have to understand how to get from point A to point B. You are not looking at the cause and effect of what you do. What is the end goal of the changes you propose? What is your step by step plan to accomplish these changes? Saying " tear it all down" doesn't help you build anything. It just makes a pile of shit and everything goes to shit and everything is worse for everyone rather than anything actually being better for anyone.
I'm amused that you all think that there's time for this sort of slow, incremental change. There isn't. I wish we had that luxury. In case you haven't noticed, the earth is burning up. If we actually want to make changes, drastic action needs to be taken immediately.

But that won't happen under trump. It won't even happen under biden. So what's the answer? "Atleast biden believes in global warming?" "A weak response is better then no response?" Even if biden did take real steps toward change, it would get overturned in 4-8 years. But I don't think he will. I don't even think he's competent enough to do so if he wanted to.

Frankly, my kind of dramatic action is the only thing that makes sense.
 

lil devils x

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I'm amused that you all think that there's time for this sort of slow, incremental change. There isn't. I wish we had that luxury. In case you haven't noticed, the earth is burning up. If we actually want to make changes, drastic action needs to be taken immediately.

But that won't happen under trump. It won't even happen under biden. So what's the answer? "Atleast biden believes in global warming?" "A weak response is better then no response?" Even if biden did take real steps toward change, it would get overturned in 4-8 years. But I don't think he will. I don't even think he's competent enough to do so if he wanted to.

Frankly, my kind of dramatic action is the only thing that makes sense.
Go ahead, you have yet to explain your step by step plan to accomplish these goals, and how we can expect the cause and effect of your plan to actually result in that happening. I'm waiting.
 

Thaluikhain

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I'm amused that you all think that there's time for this sort of slow, incremental change. There isn't. I wish we had that luxury. In case you haven't noticed, the earth is burning up. If we actually want to make changes, drastic action needs to be taken immediately.

But that won't happen under trump. It won't even happen under biden. So what's the answer? "Atleast biden believes in global warming?" "A weak response is better then no response?" Even if biden did take real steps toward change, it would get overturned in 4-8 years. But I don't think he will. I don't even think he's competent enough to do so if he wanted to.

Frankly, my kind of dramatic action is the only thing that makes sense.
Not wanting to speak for others, but I'm guessing mostly everyone agrees with this, they just don't think your kind of dramatic action is a feasible option either. As you say, a weak response is better than no response. Maybe, maybe we'll see a weak response, we'll likely see little or no response, we won't see a good response.
 

lil devils x

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I'm amused that you all think that there's time for this sort of slow, incremental change. There isn't. I wish we had that luxury. In case you haven't noticed, the earth is burning up. If we actually want to make changes, drastic action needs to be taken immediately.

But that won't happen under trump. It won't even happen under biden. So what's the answer? "Atleast biden believes in global warming?" "A weak response is better then no response?" Even if biden did take real steps toward change, it would get overturned in 4-8 years. But I don't think he will. I don't even think he's competent enough to do so if he wanted to.

Frankly, my kind of dramatic action is the only thing that makes sense.
IF Democrats are able to get a majority, they seem to be floating the idea currently of making DC and Puerto Rico states. If that happens, there would actually be a real possibility of not having it flip to the GOP in 4 to 8 years. Then they could actually get more done that fixing the mess the GOP made while they were in the house crapping all over the place.

If the next time democrats control the white house, house and Senate they actually make that move, they actually could make it much easier for them to shift left because it would give them a little bit of breathing room they currently do not have. If they ever managed to get a comfortable enough lead, they wouldn't have to wrestle for conservative votes like they do now, but they still would need more regions to shift left to get us to that point. Puerto Rico and DC would definitely help though for sure.
 

fOx

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Go ahead, you have yet to explain your step by step plan to accomplish these goals, and how we can expect the cause and effect of your plan to actually result in that happening. I'm waiting.
Overthrow the bourgeoisie, seize their wealth, return control of the means of production to the people, and set up a temporary dictatoriship to control the transition into a true communist state.

Not wanting to speak for others, but I'm guessing mostly everyone agrees with this, they just don't think your kind of dramatic action is a feasible option either. As you say, a weak response is better than no response. Maybe, maybe we'll see a weak response, we'll likely see little or no response, we won't see a good response.
"A weak response is better then no response." Not when the outcome is the same. Every response that isn't dramatic is essentially the same. Maybe I am dramatic. But dramatic dangers call for dramatic action. I wouldn't have much patience for that argument during the holocaust, and I don't have much patience for it now with regards to global warming. Capitalism is nothing but a road block for change, so it needs to be dismantled and destroyed.

IF Democrats are able to get a majority, they seem to be floating the idea currently of making DC and Puerto Rico states. If that happens, there would actually be a real possibility of not having it flip to the GOP in 4 to 8 years. Then they could actually get more done that fixing the mess the GOP made while they were in the house crapping all over the place.

If the next time democrats control the white house, house and Senate they actually make that move, they actually could make it much easier for them to shift left because it would give them a little bit of breathing room they currently do not have. If they ever managed to get a comfortable enough lead, they wouldn't have to wrestle for conservative votes like they do now, but they still would need more regions to shift left to get us to that point. Puerto Rico and DC would definitely help though for sure.
That will never, ever happen. Frankly, it seems even less reasonable then my plan.

The nature of our system will always result in two dominant parties, which each control a relatively similar number of votes. Which means that they will switch parties every few years, and dismantle each other. Even if the republican party were to be dismantled due to changing demographics, you would just see the leadership of the old party form a new party. One that is equally corporate, but that would find other ways to make itself more palatable to voters. This whole process would take an enormous amount of time that we do not have. But even if this did happen, it would not result in a new party that is decisive on economic and climate issues. At most they would just embrace the same social stances as democrats for marketing reasons, while not actually changing anything. It's naive.

The world will burn while everyone mills around doing nothing.
 

Thaluikhain

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The world will burn while everyone mills around doing nothing.
Yes. That's the problem. People aren't going to destroy capitalism or whatever. Sure, in theory, they could, but come back in 5, 10, 20 years and they won't have. Small reforms that won't really help people are still better than big dramatic changes we might very well need, but never actually happen.
 

fOx

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Yes. That's the problem. People aren't going to destroy capitalism or whatever. Sure, in theory, they could, but come back in 5, 10, 20 years and they won't have. Small reforms that won't really help people are still better than big dramatic changes we might very well need, but never actually happen.
The small reforms you people talk about aren't even solutions. Even if they unfolded exactly the way you people described, and everything you said happens exactly as described, it wouldn't be enough. Your solutions aren't even solutions at all.
 

Agema

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Overthrow the bourgeoisie, seize their wealth, return control of the means of production to the people, and set up a temporary dictatoriship to control the transition into a true communist state.
Right. But what this actually means is that having taken the means of production, there's no guarantee that the people we put to run it really know how to do it, which means production nosedives, jobs are lost, living standards decline. With the global interrelatedness of production, your industry actually comes to a grinding halt because being dysfunctional, it probably can't afford all the parts and raw materials etc. to maintain production. You can't buy in much of the vast panoply of modern living that your country doesn't make any more. And so it also goes with state apparatus which also degrades, and much more - no international credit, the government cannot borrow, and cannot spend. Very likely, there's heavy emigation, especially of the highly skilled and educated as they're the people who tend to be persecuted and have their opportunities denied.

The people are likely to become unhappy, and the revolutionary model becomes tarred with failure and loses respect, which causes a drive to return to the pre-revolutionary state, which causes the revolutionaries to crack down. Another wave of emigration.

What this all means is that the country actually spends 10-20 years not solving a load of the world's problems but sorting itself the fuck out, with at least a reasonable chance that the revolution fails and it ends up back exactly where it was.
 

Thaluikhain

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The small reforms you people talk about aren't even solutions. Even if they unfolded exactly the way you people described, and everything you said happens exactly as described, it wouldn't be enough. Your solutions aren't even solutions at all.
I know it wouldn't be enough. That's a given. But "not enough" or even "not nearly enough" compares favourably to "nothing". Clutching at straws when you're drowning is better than talking about the design for a great lifeboat that's not ever going to get built. You'll still likely drown each way, but it's something.
 

Buyetyen

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Overthrow the bourgeoisie, seize their wealth, return control of the means of production to the people, and set up a temporary dictatoriship to control the transition into a true communist state.
What precisely is the first actionable step in doing this? What specifically am I, for example, meant to do with this?
 
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lil devils x

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What precisely is the first actionable step in doing this? What specifically am I, for example, meant to do with this?
NOTHING! I get to be the DICTATOR! MWHAHAHA! Now we fight to the death and this goes on until everyone is dead and the world goes on without us. XD

Because that is just how you determine who is going to be the dictator. Because dictatorships always work out so well...
 

Secondhand Revenant

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When it's all *talk* of dramatic action and none to be seen it comes off more like someone who wants an excuse to just stay out of things.

Why do people go for small changes? Because they actually care about other people and not seeing them suffer. Because not going for these small changes isn't in any way excluding some bigger change that doesn't appear to be happening anyways. It's not some proposal to do something dramatic instead, it's a proposal to throw your hands up in the air as far as I can tell.
 
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