Left 4 dead 2 should be based in city 17 that would be cool. you know what, i'm declaring left 4 dead 1 was based in city 17mentor07825 said:
Valve Fans Form Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott Group
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
*ahem*
I present incontrovertible evidence that this boycott is based on groundless accusations and was formed by attention whores who would rather try and force a company to waste time and money than be productive.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/before-its-time-valve-explains-left-4-dead-sequel-to-ars.ars
For the The "tl:dr" people, let me just direct you to this
Incidentally I will issue a partial retraction, apparently L4D 2 is going to be full price, but oh well. Them's the breaks. It at least seems like a much bigger game in scope to warrant such a thing. Can't fully agree with that choice, but I'm not going to rage over it.
EDIT: And yes, I do come off very hyperbolic here. Oh well.
I present incontrovertible evidence that this boycott is based on groundless accusations and was formed by attention whores who would rather try and force a company to waste time and money than be productive.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/before-its-time-valve-explains-left-4-dead-sequel-to-ars.ars
For the The "tl:dr" people, let me just direct you to this
So let's see, that automatically renders the following points of the "manifesto" irrelevant:
That's about half the points of the manifesto. Once again, jumping to conclusions proves to only make the complainers look dumb.
Incidentally I will issue a partial retraction, apparently L4D 2 is going to be full price, but oh well. Them's the breaks. It at least seems like a much bigger game in scope to warrant such a thing. Can't fully agree with that choice, but I'm not going to rage over it.
EDIT: And yes, I do come off very hyperbolic here. Oh well.
has our society come to complete and utter stupitity? I mean really, this is truly dumb. I can understand that they're a bit upset about Vavle not living up to their promises and yet they did, did these guys ever stop to think that maybe just MAYBE this is valve's way of fufilling these promises? And if they don't want the game, that great for them, valve probably doesn't care considering they know ALOT of people are still going to buy this game (me included) I would probably place money on the founder of this boycott is some ten-year old who's mom spoils him that sucked really bad at the first one and is scared that he'll be even worse at the second one (alright, I'm making a bet right now, 50 of whatever money type you use or prefer that the founder of this group will buy, play, and then be an achievement whore with L4D2)
These people are just ignorant assholes. They're assuming the game is going to suck and there hasn't been a single video of gameplay. They're just being assholes and need to grow up. It's just a game.
Do you know what would cause hilarity too ensue? If this ended up being a very elaborate ruse. If this ends up being a type of DLC for L4D or better yet, just a complete hoax. While this is hard to fathom I wouldn't put it above Valve to try this since they have done it before (Spy video "Leak" anyone?) I think we should just wait and see. If you don't like it don't play it, if you do like it play it. Besides that there is no real reason to get into a hissy fit over a video game.
I think this is blown way out of proportion.
* Significant content for L4D1 was promised, and never delivered
Valve have said they're going to release more content for the original Left 4 Dead, and a brand new gameplay mode released a few months after release apparently doesn't count. How often do TF2 updates come out? That game has been out for two years, no wonder they've had plenty of updates; Left 4 Dead has been out 6 months.
* Valve put little faith in L4D1 since they almost certainly started working on L4D2 right after release
If they had little faith, why would they immediately work on a sequel before receiving the critical reception of the original? Surely it wouldn't sell much better than the original?
* The fact that L4D2 is nearly identical to L4D1 will decimate the community for both games
Look up Hyperbole. Whilst the core gameplay will be the same, there are a ton of new things being added - five new campaigns, new boss infected, new common infected, new weapons, new power-ups, re-designed crescendo events, and a yet-to be revealed new gameplay mode.
And honestly, those crying out for Episode 3, would Episode 3 be markedly different to Episodes 1 and 2 and the original Half-Life 2?
I don't understand how the community will be 'decimated' at all. Nintendo have released Zelda and Mario games that are almost identical for decades and they have an incredibly strong community.
* The announced date is not nearly enough time to polish content or make significant gameplay changes
Have you ever heard of pushing a release date back?
* The new character designs seem bland and unappealing so far
Stopped caring at 'so far'. Total screentimes of the new characters is barely anything; notice how the designs of the original four changed during development.
* L4D2 is too colourful to fit in with L4D1's visual aesthetic
This is a pathetic reason. I suggest you look up the original Red Steel and then Red Steel 2; see the aesthetic difference? The change is Left 4 Dead 2 is markedly small in comparision, and Red Steel 2 looks much better than the original. While you're at it, look up The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.
I don't think it's that it's 'more colourful', I just think it's that the new levels are set in daylight. Personally I hated how the original had solely drab and grey environments.
* The fiddle-based horde music is extremely disliked, though the differently orchestrated music is otherwise welcome
That's your opinion. How does that warrant a reason to boycott a game?
* L4D2's release will result in a drop in quality and frequency for L4D1 content, even compared to before
Let's compare Team Fortress 2 with Left 4 Dead for a moment. The gap between release and the survival pack was 5 months; the gap between the Heavy and Scout update was 6 months, and Team Fortress 2 had been out for over a year by that point. There was nothing ever wrong with Left 4 Dead's frequency of new content.
* The community has lost faith in Valve's former reputation for commitment to their games post-release
I certainly haven't. You do not represent the community. Seriously, the release of one game makes you lose faith in a developer that made 5 of the best games ever made? Mountain. Molehill.
I can kind of see why people are getting angry at a sudden sequel (personally I never saw it coming) but this is one hell of an overreaction.
* Significant content for L4D1 was promised, and never delivered
Valve have said they're going to release more content for the original Left 4 Dead, and a brand new gameplay mode released a few months after release apparently doesn't count. How often do TF2 updates come out? That game has been out for two years, no wonder they've had plenty of updates; Left 4 Dead has been out 6 months.
* Valve put little faith in L4D1 since they almost certainly started working on L4D2 right after release
If they had little faith, why would they immediately work on a sequel before receiving the critical reception of the original? Surely it wouldn't sell much better than the original?
* The fact that L4D2 is nearly identical to L4D1 will decimate the community for both games
Look up Hyperbole. Whilst the core gameplay will be the same, there are a ton of new things being added - five new campaigns, new boss infected, new common infected, new weapons, new power-ups, re-designed crescendo events, and a yet-to be revealed new gameplay mode.
And honestly, those crying out for Episode 3, would Episode 3 be markedly different to Episodes 1 and 2 and the original Half-Life 2?
I don't understand how the community will be 'decimated' at all. Nintendo have released Zelda and Mario games that are almost identical for decades and they have an incredibly strong community.
* The announced date is not nearly enough time to polish content or make significant gameplay changes
Have you ever heard of pushing a release date back?
* The new character designs seem bland and unappealing so far
Stopped caring at 'so far'. Total screentimes of the new characters is barely anything; notice how the designs of the original four changed during development.
* L4D2 is too colourful to fit in with L4D1's visual aesthetic
This is a pathetic reason. I suggest you look up the original Red Steel and then Red Steel 2; see the aesthetic difference? The change is Left 4 Dead 2 is markedly small in comparision, and Red Steel 2 looks much better than the original. While you're at it, look up The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.
I don't think it's that it's 'more colourful', I just think it's that the new levels are set in daylight. Personally I hated how the original had solely drab and grey environments.
* The fiddle-based horde music is extremely disliked, though the differently orchestrated music is otherwise welcome
That's your opinion. How does that warrant a reason to boycott a game?
* L4D2's release will result in a drop in quality and frequency for L4D1 content, even compared to before
Let's compare Team Fortress 2 with Left 4 Dead for a moment. The gap between release and the survival pack was 5 months; the gap between the Heavy and Scout update was 6 months, and Team Fortress 2 had been out for over a year by that point. There was nothing ever wrong with Left 4 Dead's frequency of new content.
* The community has lost faith in Valve's former reputation for commitment to their games post-release
I certainly haven't. You do not represent the community. Seriously, the release of one game makes you lose faith in a developer that made 5 of the best games ever made? Mountain. Molehill.
I can kind of see why people are getting angry at a sudden sequel (personally I never saw it coming) but this is one hell of an overreaction.
i understand that you dislike their anger, but they feel forgotten. they wasted all that money on l4d but they're not being supported with it. honestly, i think that if l4d was just an experiment, they should've just added on dlc instead of making a sequelWrongSprite said:
"Decimate"? So, the amount of people playing L4D now are going to be reduced by one-tenth and the people playing L4D are going to be one-tenth less than what they would have been if Valve had waited for people to get bored of L4D and stop playing... so, technically, they get L4D traffic (-10%) multiplied by 2(because of L4D2)... thats an increase of 80% in gaming traffic... I dont rally think Valve are going to be annoyed by that. XD
I never got the original L4D (mostly because i don't have a 360 and my computer is a Mac) and neither did most of my friends (who all own 360's) because we looked at the review before we sprung for it. I was playing at one of my friends who did buy it and wasn't impressed, so i'm hoping that L4D2 might be better off, as in with less glitches and the like. The only reason I'm not getting it is cause I'm not paying for a 360 for this one game, and buying a new PC is a pain.
Glad to see they're making changes at least, unlike their obsession with see-saw puzzles in half-life games....
Moral: look up information about the game you're going to buy instead of just jumping in with fanboy-like glee, could just save you a couple dollars
Glad to see they're making changes at least, unlike their obsession with see-saw puzzles in half-life games....
Moral: look up information about the game you're going to buy instead of just jumping in with fanboy-like glee, could just save you a couple dollars
Dear Mr. Chet Faliszek/Gabe Newell
I am a longtime fan of your works. Half-Life was the game that I feel, truely turned me into a gamer. The experiance that brought me from someone who just beat up little pixels on nintendo every now and then to a walking talking wallet for videogames to lift money from, and I say this in the most complimentary way imaginable. Half-Life was the first game I played (and a first person shooter no less!) that seemlessly married gameplay, storytelling, and artistry.
I have embraced STEAM and your new digital distribution methods despite the fact I prefer having a hard-copy. I have purchased many games via it, including Left 4 Dead. I had purchased this game on the strength of it's free demo, even though I could only run it on it's absolute lowest settings (which to your credit still looks very good). The game I felt was an investment- the four campaigns were fun to play through with freinds, and you promised regular additional content. That, coupled with with the upcoming SKU would turn this from what was admittedly a very small game not really worth it's full price content-wise into a spectacular smorgasborg of zombie slaying goodness. I expected L4D to be the breakout hit of this decade, the next Half-Life. I professed this view openly, and waited patiently. I did not complain at the speed of updates, knowing Valve finishes it's products when they are done, that the wait is always worth it. Indeed I expected no announcement whatsoever from you at this E3, except to announce new expansions.
Then L4D2 was announced and I felt my heart fall into my stomach. And not in the good "oh I just met my future wife" kind of way. I thought it was a joke. Sadly, it's not a joke. New weapons, new hit detection, new missions, new music. No actual changes to the engine or gameplay. 'Too large for DLC' we have been told - indeed, in the days of yor we called that an expansion pack.
Now I could say a great deal about how you promised us all of these things in DLC and community support that you have yet to give, and seemingly intend not to. I could mention that L4D was released incomplete but you pled with fans to be patient then as well, and we were. I defended you then myself. But I cannot defend you now. I feel betrayed on a very fundamental level. Betrayed of my trust in you, betrayed of my monetary investment in your product. I wouldn't mind paying for this added content, not at all. Release it as DLC's, release it as an expansion pack in stores, whatever you care to do. But to release a full blown sequel, a new title that will recieve the support that L4D rightfully should have had, is a slap in the face.
In summation I feel that:
1- You have betrayed the trust of your fanbase by rescinding on the promise, real or implied, to consistantly support this game in a manner similar to TF2.
2- You have cheated me out of money by releasing L4D at full price with the implied strength of it's future updates, which you assured fans would be coming and would be totally awesome. Then, you cramed those updates into a full priced sequel.
3- You owe me, and your community, an apology.
Should I recieve an apology from BOTH of you, I will more then gladly accept and throw my full if meager support behind your new title in an effort to move beyond this embarassment and embrace a future where this NEVER happens again.
Yours truely,
Andrew "TsunamiWombat" Schiffbauer
I am a longtime fan of your works. Half-Life was the game that I feel, truely turned me into a gamer. The experiance that brought me from someone who just beat up little pixels on nintendo every now and then to a walking talking wallet for videogames to lift money from, and I say this in the most complimentary way imaginable. Half-Life was the first game I played (and a first person shooter no less!) that seemlessly married gameplay, storytelling, and artistry.
I have embraced STEAM and your new digital distribution methods despite the fact I prefer having a hard-copy. I have purchased many games via it, including Left 4 Dead. I had purchased this game on the strength of it's free demo, even though I could only run it on it's absolute lowest settings (which to your credit still looks very good). The game I felt was an investment- the four campaigns were fun to play through with freinds, and you promised regular additional content. That, coupled with with the upcoming SKU would turn this from what was admittedly a very small game not really worth it's full price content-wise into a spectacular smorgasborg of zombie slaying goodness. I expected L4D to be the breakout hit of this decade, the next Half-Life. I professed this view openly, and waited patiently. I did not complain at the speed of updates, knowing Valve finishes it's products when they are done, that the wait is always worth it. Indeed I expected no announcement whatsoever from you at this E3, except to announce new expansions.
Then L4D2 was announced and I felt my heart fall into my stomach. And not in the good "oh I just met my future wife" kind of way. I thought it was a joke. Sadly, it's not a joke. New weapons, new hit detection, new missions, new music. No actual changes to the engine or gameplay. 'Too large for DLC' we have been told - indeed, in the days of yor we called that an expansion pack.
Now I could say a great deal about how you promised us all of these things in DLC and community support that you have yet to give, and seemingly intend not to. I could mention that L4D was released incomplete but you pled with fans to be patient then as well, and we were. I defended you then myself. But I cannot defend you now. I feel betrayed on a very fundamental level. Betrayed of my trust in you, betrayed of my monetary investment in your product. I wouldn't mind paying for this added content, not at all. Release it as DLC's, release it as an expansion pack in stores, whatever you care to do. But to release a full blown sequel, a new title that will recieve the support that L4D rightfully should have had, is a slap in the face.
In summation I feel that:
1- You have betrayed the trust of your fanbase by rescinding on the promise, real or implied, to consistantly support this game in a manner similar to TF2.
2- You have cheated me out of money by releasing L4D at full price with the implied strength of it's future updates, which you assured fans would be coming and would be totally awesome. Then, you cramed those updates into a full priced sequel.
3- You owe me, and your community, an apology.
Should I recieve an apology from BOTH of you, I will more then gladly accept and throw my full if meager support behind your new title in an effort to move beyond this embarassment and embrace a future where this NEVER happens again.
Yours truely,
Andrew "TsunamiWombat" Schiffbauer
An interesting argument. Allow me to retort! You'll see that I'll be far more rational than the inevitable browbeating you will get from your fellow community members.
Betrayal, backstabbing, and any of the other emotions you might feel are all well and good - but they reek of the emotionally dramatic and lend no credence to your argument. If you don't believe me, look to the bottom of this post.
Given their pricing for their most recent products, it is likely they will give L4D customers either a discount or the ability to somehow reclaim what was spent in some other way.
As for "owing" you an apology, that sense of entitlement has its limits. That limit is reached when it becomes less about asking for an apology for bad service and more about asking for an apology for something which you don't agree with. As an analog, you do not see ATI apologizing for releasing constantly new video cards after they tout one as the end all be all model and support it. You do not see Dell apologizing for releasing brand new computer models and making computers bought 6 months ago not the latest and greatest. If you want a game example, you do not see Nintendo apologizing for releasing a Super Mario Bros. Galaxy 2 a year after the first Galaxy is released, and you don't see game console developers apologizing for releasing new better versions of their consoles.
Technology advancement never owes anyone an apology, and that goes for games. The reason for this? It's simply good business and forward thinking to constantly evolve and grow your current product. I'll grant that legacy support should continue for L4D, and because of the character change, new content should be retrofitted onto it for a unification game in the near future. But what I won't accept is that a whole community deserves an apology for moving forward, not staying in neutral.
Developers realistically apologize in only a few cases - when their product ships late, when services are interrupted unexpectedly, and when their business decisions turn out to be a terrible misjudgment, after the fact. Demands of apologies now, when literally only one trailer and a smattering of gameplay has been shown, are extremely premature and short-sighted. The true flaw of the boycott group is that not only do they have tunnel vision, but they can only see 2 inches in front of them in the tunnel. Here are just some of the quotes:
Come back to this group in 3 or 4 months and this will be nothing more than a blip on the radar.
Anyway, I've said my piece. Whatever you believe is fine.
Arguable. My L4D experience has been well-supported, for the most part. I hardly crash, the servers aren't down that often, and bugfixes have been doled in in reasonable time with little damage to my gameplay. We got Survival mode recently, and that has been a blast too, although it has bugs which also need fixing (some of which already have been).TsunamiWombat said:
Betrayal, backstabbing, and any of the other emotions you might feel are all well and good - but they reek of the emotionally dramatic and lend no credence to your argument. If you don't believe me, look to the bottom of this post.
While the sequel is indeed going to be priced at full retail, there's no indication as to what that price means. At most, it might be $40, which is what I paid for the first game, and as long as it is packed with enough new content and brand new directions to take the game, I'm fine with it. I'll allow that Valve is doing something extremely unusual by turning around a game so quickly, but we are making huge assumptions about the price point of the game. The Orange Box is the best example of this - a bundle that was well priced including a ton of games, one of which was a sequel (TF2). If Valve has made a decision to release a game sequel that was wildly successful in its first iteration, they would be foolish in that some business sense not to create prices for existing customers.
Given their pricing for their most recent products, it is likely they will give L4D customers either a discount or the ability to somehow reclaim what was spent in some other way.
You know very well that you'll never get that apology. Making an unrealistic demand does not strengthen your argument, it weakens it, because you refuse to be even handed and set appropriate expectations of what you want from the developers.
As for "owing" you an apology, that sense of entitlement has its limits. That limit is reached when it becomes less about asking for an apology for bad service and more about asking for an apology for something which you don't agree with. As an analog, you do not see ATI apologizing for releasing constantly new video cards after they tout one as the end all be all model and support it. You do not see Dell apologizing for releasing brand new computer models and making computers bought 6 months ago not the latest and greatest. If you want a game example, you do not see Nintendo apologizing for releasing a Super Mario Bros. Galaxy 2 a year after the first Galaxy is released, and you don't see game console developers apologizing for releasing new better versions of their consoles.
Technology advancement never owes anyone an apology, and that goes for games. The reason for this? It's simply good business and forward thinking to constantly evolve and grow your current product. I'll grant that legacy support should continue for L4D, and because of the character change, new content should be retrofitted onto it for a unification game in the near future. But what I won't accept is that a whole community deserves an apology for moving forward, not staying in neutral.
Developers realistically apologize in only a few cases - when their product ships late, when services are interrupted unexpectedly, and when their business decisions turn out to be a terrible misjudgment, after the fact. Demands of apologies now, when literally only one trailer and a smattering of gameplay has been shown, are extremely premature and short-sighted. The true flaw of the boycott group is that not only do they have tunnel vision, but they can only see 2 inches in front of them in the tunnel. Here are just some of the quotes:
The few rational comments in the thread are drowned out by this cacophany of unneeded rage and insults. If these people were really serious about being heard in more ways than just being an unruly, angry, pitchforking-bearing mob (and throwing themselves impotently at the castle), there'd be more organization, rationale, and measured argument than this, the majority of the comments for the group. Wombat, you're one of the more rational ones, but don't think that your peers share the same sentiments or ability to communicate a long-term "boycott" appropriately. And that is why I think it will ultimately peter out and fail, just like every single other group like it out there (ever see the "I hate the new Facebook changes" groups after 3 months? Same thing). I will be more than happy to say I was wrong if that is not the case, but my hopes are not high. Their free publicity from sites like this will diminish, and then we'll see if the cause holds any water at all.
Come back to this group in 3 or 4 months and this will be nothing more than a blip on the radar.
Anyway, I've said my piece. Whatever you believe is fine.
