What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

[Einspanner]

When you have access to porn, or regular sex, fanservice stops being fun, and starts to feel awkward. To be honest, something like Food Wars would probably have been better if they dropped the fanservice. Without it, it's a show you could recommend to anyone, with it... it's kind of awkward. It's not just porn though, if you have a good sex life it's even less appealing. You need to be sort of constantly horny to appreciate blatant fanservice.

I mean FANSERVICE too, not "She's wearing a skirt".

I will admit that some shows might not benefit from having fan service, or that the service in a particular series might too "out there" or too extreme for it's own good. Regarding your comment about having a good sex life, I'm pretty sure there are some people out there with healthy sex lives that enjoys that stuff. Different strokes for different fokes, I guess.

I believe in people who aren't frustrated and lonely being into that kind of thing in the way I believe in god; I want to believe, but I've never seen it.

 

[Wakey87]

Japan seems to not get as frustrated or worked up as the west by having titles like these on the shelfs

Their first thought is 'Shikata ga nai' Which means it can't be helped, rather than 'won't somone please think of the children'

 

[coates32]

I just find it weird Huniepop or DOA volleyball of all things is seen as an example of a typical perv game. Jeez people, this is bottom tier perviness, you get like what, skimpy outfits in 1, and like 4-5 naughty pics of each girl in the other? Not even any interactivity in huniepop pics either, which leads people here to correctly ask "why settle for that, when you get a world of free pr0n on the net?". Well actual interactive perv games do exist you know, to bring up a rather controversial example: Rapelay (i'm only bringing that one up cos it's rather infamous and it's also not my fetish, so people raging at it won't reflect on my own tastes, but it is someone's fetish for sure and I aint gonna judge so long as it remains in the realm of fantasy).

The industry of sex games that I'm familiar with is more niche sites selling many varied titles and comprises what some would consider fucked up fetishes, I don't ever see that breaking into the mainstream even if there's some legit good games in there along with the titillation (normally platformers where if you lose the character gets raped/abused by monsters and in the game over screen, such as that castlevania remake..Peh forgot name of it).

DoAx is about as softcore as you can get, you don't even see any actual nudity. And softcore games are meh for the titillation aspect imo, so don't even appeal to those looking for kinky games, it's more if you super love the characters.

So why doesn't the west make more DoAX style games? Imo it's because DoAX is somewhat of an anomaly. it's not hardcore enough to be good jerking material, it's softcore leanings restricts the audience somewhat and it's a "big" title with high production values that still needs to sell quite a bit to make it profitable. It's also riding on the back of a well known cast whose company is ok with using them in this type of game.
There's been a few attempts at mainstream kink games which raven mentioned earlier, but they just weren't profitable as a mainstream game and due to being mainstream were too softcore to be interesting to true and proper pervs.

So imo if you want to see western kinky games (whether it be softcore like DoAx or something more...deviant), you should not be turning to mainstream gaming but the more indie side or delve into the darker parts of the internet where gaming media fears to thread outside the occasional shock story such as with rapelay, where I'll guarantee you you will find a game with the fucked up fetish to suit you and be perfectly happy with your purchase. There is a thriving market for perv games out there, you just have to know where to look

I think the OP might be inquiring about why the west don't make "ecchi [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecchi]" games. As to why one would prefer that over porn, perhaps the they want to sex appeal without (graphic) sex scenes, or perhaps they want something that is more capable of having a better focus on story, characterization, action, ect. with some sex appeal. Or it could something else.

 

[Frankster]

Word of the day is Ecchi!

Cheers, learned a new word there. Last week it was "ahegao", the week before it was "ryona", I'm learning all sorts of interesting terms this month! Hum gives me idea for a new forum title actually..

And yeah, guess that's what OP meant in retrospect, guess I was too distracted with some posters referring to DoaX or Huniepop as some kind of shameful perv game when they are more the pervy equivalent of beer without alcohol or bacardi breezer super light.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Word of the day is Ecchi!

Cheers, learned a new word there. Last week it was "ahegao", the week before it was "ryona", I'm learning all sorts of interesting terms this month! Hum gives me idea for a new forum title actually..

And yeah, guess that's what OP meant in retrospect, guess I was too distracted with some posters referring to DoaX or Huniepop as some kind of shameful perv game when they are more the pervy equivalent of beer without alcohol or bacardi breezer super light.

Hence why those games don't offend or bother me in the least. DOAX, Criminal Girls, that stuff is practically family friendly compared to a lot of ryona games out there, both from Japan and from the US.

 

[Inazuma1]

Religious prudes and feminist prudes. And the internet, which as Avenue Q taught us, is for porn.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

This thread hurts.

Truly, none of us understands Japan. Hell, I myself know little about Japan, but these conclusions are ridiculous.

I think some of this "Liberated Japan" and "Prudish West" has to be coming from people unfamiliar with both cultures. Japan considers us to be basically, immodest sluts. The idea of everyone having instant and constant access to almost limitless free, uncensored porn would be as alien as everyone having their own car.

You can watch xvideos in Japan, uncensored. It's not illegal, at least for now, you just can't distribute uncensored pornography while in Japan.

Japan is the land where convenience stores sell adult magazines open counter, sometimes right next to the shounen magazine section and every kid who wants to buy Weekly Shounen Jump can see it.

Only Japan has people shutting in and rejecting real women, only Japan has a birth rate that looks like China's population graph, left upside down by accident.

I'm very interested in hikikomori, and from what read before, I guess the biggest factor is depression and its symptoms such as inability to do basic daily activities, to even getting up out of bed. This depression could stem from economic downturn, social anxiety, failing rigorous expectations, or a lack of fulfillment out of hard work.

It's not that everyone in Japan is satisfied with their waifus and cannot touch a real woman anymore, it's that normal people do not want to get married and have children due to being overworked, lack of privacy, to just not wanting children (seriously they cost so much and take so much time!), and lot's of other possible reasons. Maybe waifus fit in there somewhere, but not so much.

Only Japan is putting women in jail for 3D printed kayaks, and only Japan censors pubic hair AFAIK.

The Japanese Supreme Court upholds the belief, that as long as genitalia is not shown, it is artistic enough to not be obscene. It is no different to what the US thought until the 70s, and even now it is ambiguous of the legality of porn. I think this is very important, pornography is only "legal" in the US is because state prosecutors no longer want to go after it. In Japan, hardly anyone is prosecuted because in order to distribute their material, the publisher (including online shops or doujin markets like Comiket) will clear the item of obscene material to avoid being prosecuted.

However, a lot of doujin artists nowadays don't even try, and have an minuscule 8 px line covering the frenulum or the clitoris, because publishers say "eh, close enough" and sell it anyways. This is still illegal, but the chances of being prosecuted are very small. Prosecutors don't have to time to look at every piece of content. Instead, they try to go after it by precedent, like the RIAA suing some poor kid for millions of dollars for pirating an album. Still, like how people pirate things because the chances of any repercussions are so tiny, authors and publishers are willing to take the risk.

So, it's not as if people in Japan are afraid of genitals, or at least the ones who consume porn. It's just the conservative government... again. I mean, I guess there are always some prudes, but like the US you will find a lot of people unhappy about that kind of stuff.

Oh and pubic hair is not censored anymore. Also, you're going to see a whole lot more pubic hair in AV than in regular porn. I've seen my fair share to know they don't shave.

Short of going to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, you'd be really hard pressed to find a more sexually repressive place than Japan. It just so happens that if you don't live in Japan, and aren't Japanese, and have the pick of their entire catalogue of porny games and so forth, you have a warped view".

In China and South Korea, pornography is banned. No getting it on the internet also, unless you want to bypass the filter and break the law.

Even in Japan, those games are not exactly played by everyone, anymore than otaku-level anime watching is a normal thing. A lot of what "Japan" supposedly is and does exists purely in the fantastical imaginations of people 4Chan unkindly calls "Weebs

They don't have to be played by everyone. Anime culture is highly prevalent in Japan, it is not a fantastical imagination of weebs.

This is not that accurate at all. Most Visual Novels have a half-assed story with stereotyped characters that all fall into Japanese Anime Trope Land they can't escape from. Many VNs are there to cater to the already built in fan-base in Japan. They do not have to try very hard to craft a good story, because it is going to sell pretty well anyway as long as it is competently put together. Which is why the Harem anime genre is still so popular despite the lack of any real quality what so ever.

Which is true for anything including movies and video games. Most of them suck. Anyone can make a VN, so it's like Steam Greenlight for porn. I'm just saying, there are more to VNs than nukige. Oh and you know all the uncreative harems and generic stories, are the ones that fail in sales? Generalizing here but, even otaku have tastes you know.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I just don't think there's that much demand for it, when you can look at boobies and anime boobies online for free. The gameplay isn't compelling enough for it to outweigh buying something you could otherwise get for free.

Games like DOAX aren't so much rooted in a desire to see boobies, but in a desire to see boobies of an existing established character that you can interact with. In this regard it is more similar to fanart and fanficion, than just porn. And while there is content online to meet the demand, character driven stuff is largely untapped as a market niche. Look at all of the Overwatch porn out there. It's not there because of boobies, it's there because of the characters.

Well, yes, but Overwatch is itself a compelling game on it's own. And the fanfic and fanart of it are free. It's actually a perfect example of my point.
It does have a lot of hot characters, but you could also play the game and not care about how the characters look.

I just don't think there's much of a market for waifu simulators. I mean, there IS a market, that much has been proved, but it's niche and it's never going to be as big as GTA, Mass Effect, or indeed Overwatch.

Ideally, a game like doa will also have compelling characters worth caring about too. The benefit then is that the erotic elements are actually part of the canon and as such feel more impactful. DOA is a mediocre example but when you tackle Senran Kagura and its surprisingly well developed chars you can really see this.


Ultimately, the charm is in the specific type, form, kind of titilation offered. Japan has free porn too, they're not China, only their domestic porn is censored and they have free internet too just like us.

 

[coates32]

Word of the day is Ecchi!

Cheers, learned a new word there. Last week it was "ahegao", the week before it was "ryona", I'm learning all sorts of interesting terms this month! Hum gives me idea for a new forum title actually..

And yeah, guess that's what OP meant in retrospect, guess I was too distracted with some posters referring to DoaX or Huniepop as some kind of shameful perv game when they are more the pervy equivalent of beer without alcohol or bacardi breezer super light.

This was the first time I've ever heard of the word "ryona". I could have lived without knowing it, though.

 

[Einspanner]

I believe in people who aren't frustrated and lonely being into that kind of thing in the way I believe in god; I want to believe, but I've never seen it.

And you never will. Because you attribute being into that kind of thing to being lonely and frustrated.

That may be what you assume and believe, but it isn't what I actually said. You're clear on that at least, right?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

You may have met people and just not know it because it tends to not be a thing people just up and admit like that. Which again goes back to the prudes etc.


Also, note that you yourself don't need to be religious or a prude to flinch at the prospect of backlash from those who are. This nuance seems lost in the entire thread and people tend to misunderstand that people are directly calling people prudes when what they actually are doing is point out a climate that permeates society irrespective of individual's personal traits. You may not be a prude but some are and they tend to be people's bosses and aunts and grandparents and they hold power in folks lives. Enough power to warrant secrecy. Enough to cause these games to not be made.

 

[WindKnight]

People are aware here that Japan is actually a pretty prudish and that creepy harem anime is not representative of the whole country. Why they don't sell well in the west, porn is readily available and the whole digital waifu thing hasn't really caught on but does fairly well with the Otaku types in Japan.

What gets missed a lot is that Moe and panty fighters rely on either a rental market, or being laser targeted at well off (typically tech support) types with the interest and means to splash out well over the odds.

Those special editions with the ost's, boob mousepads and panties etc. cost 5 -10 times what they would here, so they make enough from shipping only a small amount of product

 

[Einspanner]

That may be what you assume and believe, but it isn't what I actually said. You're clear on that at least, right?

Yes. But since you have never met such people you have no way of knowing that this is not a case of circular logic, have you?

I'm going to slow-walk you through this, on the basis that it's the quickest way to help you understand this, and end your flow of baseless accusations.

I've met many people with "waifus" and massive VN collections, and they are... say it with me now... "Frustrated and lonely". What I'm yet to meet is the mythical pillow-fucker who isn't both of those things.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Ok then, Huniepop was made in the west and sold well in the west. As far as I'm concerned, that's evidence that these games can sell well in the west and the Japanese industry industry capitalizing on it. Game companies being stupid and refusing to expand their audience. It's a global thing.

Agreed, but its still a thing that is unbelievably niche. And online sales figures doesn't really have any impact on social acceptance which is the main issue I was trying to raise.

Compare the amount of games that 'happen' to have violence with the amount of games that 'happen' to have a little sex appeal and their relative acceptance if you were to buy them in a shop.

Like I said before, Japan has this problem too. Let's not act like westerners just need to get with the times. I agree with you that it needs to change, but I don't like the implication that it's just us.

Its not just America or the west. Like I said earlier on the whole Japan's relationship with this kind of thing is...well, very interesting to think about. It seems strangely incongruous in many ways. That being said, eastern stuff is generally speaking a bit more relaxed about any kind of 'low level naughtiness' for want of a better phrase. As well as appreciation for cuteness.

Of course beyond that things get into something of a quagmire of the particular hang-ups of different societies. Japan has its own particular issues on that. And it'd be a naive person to say otherwise.

Like I said, 1. I haven't, I'm just pointing out that we're not so different and 2. Because people have been so gleeful to say "Oh look at Amer-westeners and what prudes they are." People tend to over romanticize Japan around here when comparing to the west, ESPECIALLY to America and I'm a little tired of it when they're not much better than we are.

Well...America IS particularly prudish compared to quite a number of countries. Even compared to here in the UK (which is far more aligned with US-sensibilities than most of Europe is). I don't think Japan is a particularly special case for comparison. And I agree, people do over-romanticise Japanese development; that's not to say its not true that they're more open to ecchi.

-snip-

I think you seem to be missing the point I was trying to make here.

The point is not that VNovels are all bastions of quality literature. Its that they do romantic storylines, on the whole, better than games that try to do the same; of course you're still going to see a lot of trash, but games like Ride to Hell exist so I'm not sure its a good way to invalidate the entire point. In the end this says more for the pitiful quality of romance in games than it particularly does for the average quality of VNovels. I'm not sure why this is a particular controversial statement to be honest; games are truly godawful at romances.

 

[Frankster]

Well...America IS particularly prudish compared to quite a number of countries. Even compared to here in the UK (which is far more aligned with US-sensibilities than most of Europe is). I don't think Japan is a particularly special case for comparison. And I agree, people do over-romanticise Japanese development; that's not to say its not true that they're more open to ecchi.

Just to reinforce this point...Take the example of France, where sex isn't considered as taboo..
You have actual porn on normal tv channels (this might have changed though with the advent of the internet making it unnecessary), buying pornographic magazines didn't get you weird looks at all and was hardly something you had to be embarassed about (though again, porn mags might be obsolete now). They were not even hidden either, but perfectly in view.
Heck even in kids magazines (im talking things like disney donald duck comics which is kinda a thing over there), you could see boobs and half naked ladies and men.

Films with sexual content are rather much lower then in other countries, to the point you could see legit smexy scenes in films a 12 year old kid could watch..Again that's not seen as immoral, because sex in France is considered natural.
Finally, you routinely had billboards and adverts showing actual naked people with full rear/frontal nudity, all this in the street, and no one bats an eyelid nor does it causes car crashes or w/e. Because people are somewhat used to nudity, it's not treated as something "exceptional" or note worthy, thus it isn't.

So whenever people say "the west is prude", I tend to mentally correct it as "the anglo saxon west aka USA and Uk are prudes". Cos yeah come live in France and get ready for your mind to be blown if you truly think every western country shares american prudishness.

 

[Charli]

The fear of the tiddy is strong in the west. Good Ol' Christian fundamentalism.

 

[DementedSheep]

Why would you need to buy a separate titty game when you have mountains of free porn and have softcore wank bait shoved into everything anyway?

 

[Yuuki]

I'm ALL for sexy fictional girls in my entertainment. But if any developer is going to make a game about petty fanservice, they better go ALL the way with gorgeously rendered girls (that look more realistic, not like plastic dolls) that wear absolutely ANYTHING that I want them to wear, offer full/partial nudity, etc. And I want to be able to do whatever I want with them (e.g. tie them up & fuck them silly), not just stupid little minigames. The modding community should have full unrestricted access to game files.

Deal? Of course not, no developer has the balls to make something like that.

Games like DOAX were a novel idea back in the early 2000's when people were still finding out the wonders of powerful new game engines & graphics. But this is 2016 now. I'm not about to drop money on a game that simply tries to "tease" me with girls frolicking around in bikinis. I already have infinite access to all the bikini ladies, softcore, hardcore, rule34, etc for FREE without having to load up some game for it.


There's some kind of big culture/mindset difference going on between the west and asia. I just don't understand the appeal of games like DOAX for anyone who is older than 15-16 and still learning what female bodies look like.

Any full grown adults who are impressed by DOAX seriously need to reassess their standards.

 

[Gengisgame]

Need to point out there than anyone who say's "because porn exists" doesn't have a grasp of even what they themselves enjoy let alone others, not saying they like porn just that's not how these things work. To give you a a basic example it would be like giving someone a plate of plain cooked beef and thinking it the same as a prepared meal, the meat will probably be fine on it's own simply to sate hunger but a well prepared meal with all the extra's, sauces and a nice cold drink is far more appealing, it comes together as a sum of it's parts.

Why play an action game when you can watch a boxing match?

Why play a spots games when you can watch a match?

Why play an rpg when you can put increasing numbers in a calculators?

Why is that scene in a movie where the woman seduces the man and you see her cleavage far more erotic far more popular than a pornstar getting her boobs out?

These things are all a sum of there parts and porn is made on the cheap and at best makes a token gesture at the build up. 50 Shades is essentially high end porn, the build up is very important so that the female viewers are titillated that much more, I will get into why a movie like this will never exist for men.

1. Well OP to start anything to do with sexuality is more controversially than violence. Sex means more to us than extreme violence, for most of us we go out everyday and our sexuality is a factor in that, from simple looks to bumping uglies, physical confrontations far less so, especially of the extreme variety.

2.Shame, that is shame explicitly for men although this is becoming less of an obstacle with the growing trend of buying by post or online. People have that subconscious feeling that a man is being a loser if he isn't actively out trying to have sex with women.

Is there a market for it? of course, it would just make sense if the game had more to it, say an RPG like Dragon Age where the party where all shaped like glamour models in string bikini's or Mario Kart where all the drivers where hot women in string bikini's. A good chasis helps.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

Its not just America or the west. Like I said earlier on the whole Japan's relationship with this kind of thing is...well, very interesting to think about. It seems strangely incongruous in many ways. That being said, eastern stuff is generally speaking a bit more relaxed about any kind of 'low level naughtiness' for want of a better phrase. As well as appreciation for cuteness.

Of course beyond that things get into something of a quagmire of the particular hang-ups of different societies. Japan has its own particular issues on that. And it'd be a naive person to say otherwise.

It is very interesting to think about. People like to think that because Japan censors their porn so they must be afraid of sex and everyone is either a serious salaryman or a perverted otaku, but really we are pretty similar. The Japanese government has a long history of censoring porn, even before western influence, the stated reason is to protect traditional values and the moral health of the populace. They still think the same way, and in fact they want to control even more of this stuff, "for the children" of course.

Japanese television has nudity after midnight on regular channels, but I don't know if that's true anymore. You have anime being aired after midnight, but things like nudity, underage smoking, drinking, panty shots, and other sexual things are censored depending on the station. The reason would be sponsorships, complaints from parents and media regulation, and Japanese political correctness.

That being said, sexuality in media is very apparent. I've already given the example of adult magazines being sold in your average convenience store where kids can see them. Also, things like talk shows and game shows are often very sexual, sometimes bizarrely so. Think of anime fanservice, but in real life. Really they are sexual gags played for humor. You can also find fanservice in JDrama, because despite appearances, fanservice is mostly comedy, not pornography.

Of course people say that nobody except otaku watch anime in Japan, and fanservice is something that filthy otaku like, and they are ruining it for the rest of everyone else. Kids grow up watching anime like Doraemon, Detective Conan, Sailor Moon, or Dragon Ball, which all have the classic fanservice we've come to love. It's true hardly anyone watches anime, but their source material, manga and LNs is extremely popular in Japan. People of all ages and both genders everywhere read this stuff, and the fanservice you find in anime is the fanservice you see in Weekly Shounen Jump or Dengeki Daioh.