What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

WindKnight

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Grumpy Ginger said:
People are aware here that Japan is actually a pretty prudish and that creepy harem anime is not representative of the whole country. Why they don't sell well in the west, porn is readily available and the whole digital waifu thing hasn't really caught on but does fairly well with the Otaku types in Japan.
What gets missed a lot is that Moe and panty fighters rely on either a rental market, or being laser targeted at well off (typically tech support) types with the interest and means to splash out well over the odds.

Those special editions with the ost's, boob mousepads and panties etc. cost 5 -10 times what they would here, so they make enough from shipping only a small amount of product
 

Einspanner

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slo said:
Einspanner said:
That may be what you assume and believe, but it isn't what I actually said. You're clear on that at least, right?
Yes. But since you have never met such people you have no way of knowing that this is not a case of circular logic, have you?
I'm going to slow-walk you through this, on the basis that it's the quickest way to help you understand this, and end your flow of baseless accusations.

I've met many people with "waifus" and massive VN collections, and they are... say it with me now... "Frustrated and lonely". What I'm yet to meet is the mythical pillow-fucker who isn't both of those things.
 

Lightspeaker

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erttheking said:
Ok then, Huniepop was made in the west and sold well in the west. As far as I'm concerned, that's evidence that these games can sell well in the west and the Japanese industry industry capitalizing on it. Game companies being stupid and refusing to expand their audience. It's a global thing.
Agreed, but its still a thing that is unbelievably niche. And online sales figures doesn't really have any impact on social acceptance which is the main issue I was trying to raise.

Compare the amount of games that 'happen' to have violence with the amount of games that 'happen' to have a little sex appeal and their relative acceptance if you were to buy them in a shop.


Like I said before, Japan has this problem too. Let's not act like westerners just need to get with the times. I agree with you that it needs to change, but I don't like the implication that it's just us.
Its not just America or the west. Like I said earlier on the whole Japan's relationship with this kind of thing is...well, very interesting to think about. It seems strangely incongruous in many ways. That being said, eastern stuff is generally speaking a bit more relaxed about any kind of 'low level naughtiness' for want of a better phrase. As well as appreciation for cuteness.

Of course beyond that things get into something of a quagmire of the particular hang-ups of different societies. Japan has its own particular issues on that. And it'd be a naive person to say otherwise.


Like I said, 1. I haven't, I'm just pointing out that we're not so different and 2. Because people have been so gleeful to say "Oh look at Amer-westeners and what prudes they are." People tend to over romanticize Japan around here when comparing to the west, ESPECIALLY to America and I'm a little tired of it when they're not much better than we are.
Well...America IS particularly prudish compared to quite a number of countries. Even compared to here in the UK (which is far more aligned with US-sensibilities than most of Europe is). I don't think Japan is a particularly special case for comparison. And I agree, people do over-romanticise Japanese development; that's not to say its not true that they're more open to ecchi.



Orga777 said:
I think you seem to be missing the point I was trying to make here.

The point is not that VNovels are all bastions of quality literature. Its that they do romantic storylines, on the whole, better than games that try to do the same; of course you're still going to see a lot of trash, but games like Ride to Hell exist so I'm not sure its a good way to invalidate the entire point. In the end this says more for the pitiful quality of romance in games than it particularly does for the average quality of VNovels. I'm not sure why this is a particular controversial statement to be honest; games are truly godawful at romances.
 

Frankster

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Lightspeaker said:
Well...America IS particularly prudish compared to quite a number of countries. Even compared to here in the UK (which is far more aligned with US-sensibilities than most of Europe is). I don't think Japan is a particularly special case for comparison. And I agree, people do over-romanticise Japanese development; that's not to say its not true that they're more open to ecchi.
Just to reinforce this point...Take the example of France, where sex isn't considered as taboo..
You have actual porn on normal tv channels (this might have changed though with the advent of the internet making it unnecessary), buying pornographic magazines didn't get you weird looks at all and was hardly something you had to be embarassed about (though again, porn mags might be obsolete now). They were not even hidden either, but perfectly in view.
Heck even in kids magazines (im talking things like disney donald duck comics which is kinda a thing over there), you could see boobs and half naked ladies and men.

Films with sexual content are rather much lower then in other countries, to the point you could see legit smexy scenes in films a 12 year old kid could watch..Again that's not seen as immoral, because sex in France is considered natural.
Finally, you routinely had billboards and adverts showing actual naked people with full rear/frontal nudity, all this in the street, and no one bats an eyelid nor does it causes car crashes or w/e. Because people are somewhat used to nudity, it's not treated as something "exceptional" or note worthy, thus it isn't.

So whenever people say "the west is prude", I tend to mentally correct it as "the anglo saxon west aka USA and Uk are prudes". Cos yeah come live in France and get ready for your mind to be blown if you truly think every western country shares american prudishness.
 

Charli

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The fear of the tiddy is strong in the west. Good Ol' Christian fundamentalism.
 

DementedSheep

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Why would you need to buy a separate titty game when you have mountains of free porn and have softcore wank bait shoved into everything anyway?
 

Yuuki

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I'm ALL for sexy fictional girls in my entertainment. But if any developer is going to make a game about petty fanservice, they better go ALL the way with gorgeously rendered girls (that look more realistic, not like plastic dolls) that wear absolutely ANYTHING that I want them to wear, offer full/partial nudity, etc. And I want to be able to do whatever I want with them (e.g. tie them up & fuck them silly), not just stupid little minigames. The modding community should have full unrestricted access to game files.

Deal? Of course not, no developer has the balls to make something like that.

Games like DOAX were a novel idea back in the early 2000's when people were still finding out the wonders of powerful new game engines & graphics. But this is 2016 now. I'm not about to drop money on a game that simply tries to "tease" me with girls frolicking around in bikinis. I already have infinite access to all the bikini ladies, softcore, hardcore, rule34, etc for FREE without having to load up some game for it.


There's some kind of big culture/mindset difference going on between the west and asia. I just don't understand the appeal of games like DOAX for anyone who is older than 15-16 and still learning what female bodies look like.

Any full grown adults who are impressed by DOAX seriously need to reassess their standards.
 

Gengisgame

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Need to point out there than anyone who say's "because porn exists" doesn't have a grasp of even what they themselves enjoy let alone others, not saying they like porn just that's not how these things work. To give you a a basic example it would be like giving someone a plate of plain cooked beef and thinking it the same as a prepared meal, the meat will probably be fine on it's own simply to sate hunger but a well prepared meal with all the extra's, sauces and a nice cold drink is far more appealing, it comes together as a sum of it's parts.

Why play an action game when you can watch a boxing match?

Why play a spots games when you can watch a match?

Why play an rpg when you can put increasing numbers in a calculators?

Why is that scene in a movie where the woman seduces the man and you see her cleavage far more erotic far more popular than a pornstar getting her boobs out?

These things are all a sum of there parts and porn is made on the cheap and at best makes a token gesture at the build up. 50 Shades is essentially high end porn, the build up is very important so that the female viewers are titillated that much more, I will get into why a movie like this will never exist for men.

1. Well OP to start anything to do with sexuality is more controversially than violence. Sex means more to us than extreme violence, for most of us we go out everyday and our sexuality is a factor in that, from simple looks to bumping uglies, physical confrontations far less so, especially of the extreme variety.

2.Shame, that is shame explicitly for men although this is becoming less of an obstacle with the growing trend of buying by post or online. People have that subconscious feeling that a man is being a loser if he isn't actively out trying to have sex with women.

Is there a market for it? of course, it would just make sense if the game had more to it, say an RPG like Dragon Age where the party where all shaped like glamour models in string bikini's or Mario Kart where all the drivers where hot women in string bikini's. A good chasis helps.
 
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Lightspeaker said:
Its not just America or the west. Like I said earlier on the whole Japan's relationship with this kind of thing is...well, very interesting to think about. It seems strangely incongruous in many ways. That being said, eastern stuff is generally speaking a bit more relaxed about any kind of 'low level naughtiness' for want of a better phrase. As well as appreciation for cuteness.

Of course beyond that things get into something of a quagmire of the particular hang-ups of different societies. Japan has its own particular issues on that. And it'd be a naive person to say otherwise.
It is very interesting to think about. People like to think that because Japan censors their porn so they must be afraid of sex and everyone is either a serious salaryman or a perverted otaku, but really we are pretty similar. The Japanese government has a long history of censoring porn, even before western influence, the stated reason is to protect traditional values and the moral health of the populace. They still think the same way, and in fact they want to control even more of this stuff, "for the children" of course.

Japanese television has nudity after midnight on regular channels, but I don't know if that's true anymore. You have anime being aired after midnight, but things like nudity, underage smoking, drinking, panty shots, and other sexual things are censored depending on the station. The reason would be sponsorships, complaints from parents and media regulation, and Japanese political correctness.

That being said, sexuality in media is very apparent. I've already given the example of adult magazines being sold in your average convenience store where kids can see them. Also, things like talk shows and game shows are often very sexual, sometimes bizarrely so. Think of anime fanservice, but in real life. Really they are sexual gags played for humor. You can also find fanservice in JDrama, because despite appearances, fanservice is mostly comedy, not pornography.

Of course people say that nobody except otaku watch anime in Japan, and fanservice is something that filthy otaku like, and they are ruining it for the rest of everyone else. Kids grow up watching anime like Doraemon, Detective Conan, Sailor Moon, or Dragon Ball, which all have the classic fanservice we've come to love. It's true hardly anyone watches anime, but their source material, manga and LNs is extremely popular in Japan. People of all ages and both genders everywhere read this stuff, and the fanservice you find in anime is the fanservice you see in Weekly Shounen Jump or Dengeki Daioh.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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For late night anime only subscription stuff has frontal nudity these days thanks to the tightening standard mrant the production staff can make you pay 50 for an unrated episode

I always felt if Rockstar was asked to develop a game with Temco Koei there will be unapologetic uncensored frontal nudity with hbo tier softcore
 

Dragonlayer

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The fear of Anita Sarkeesian burning down the would-be developer's house.

That, *or* the fact that online pornography catering to even the most terrifying desires is freely available, which I imagine would make any developer think twice about sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars into a game that *at best* would have naked characters having conventional sex.
 

DefunctTheory

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Guilion said:
AccursedTheory said:
Curious. The most common insult I've seen thrown around in this thread so far has been 'prudish.'

I really don't think the titty lovers are in a position to cry 'victim' here.
I can't point specific posts on the thread as that would warrant me a warning, however just in the first page there's someone saying those kind of games are nothing but porn and someone else implying the only people that play those games are lonely people that can't get real women. That sort of condescending attitude is what I'm reffering to when I say there's prejudice leveled at those kind of games and the people who play them.
Oh, please.

Out of curiosity, I checked.

Users blasting DOAX/'Titty Game' Enthusiast - 2
Users blasting US citizens as prudish/puritanical - 10
Users blasting companies that make titty games - 2
Users blasting people for thinking Huniepop/DOAX are titty games - 1
Users claiming I, specifically, am a subpar perv - 1
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
while you COULD say something like this is the reason, it's not.

Andy Shandy said:
If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.
This is.
Why do you think they don't sell.
Because they are terrible games, soft core porn, for voyeurs basically, and that doesn't sell games, cause, ya know, people who buy games tend to want good game play to go along with it. Which tends to be why the DOA fighters don't do well ether, they just aren't good fighters.

so that 'puritan' malarkey doesn't really hold up, cause if they where good games, they would sell far better then they do, but they aren't so they don't.
Yet they sell splendidly in Japan. Wonder why.

Lightspeaker said:
I'm vaguely amused by several people in here saying "its not that the west has sexual hang-ups, its that they don't sell". Never occurred to you that they don't sell BECAUSE the west has sexual hang-ups?
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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fisheries said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why do you think they don't sell.
They don't make much money outside of Japan.
Because both cultural hemispheres have a widely divergent history of sexual taboo and inhibition.
Fox12 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
Because gamers are known for their severe religious prudery?
Up.
 
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gyrobot said:
For late night anime only subscription stuff has frontal nudity these days thanks to the tightening standard mrant the production staff can make you pay 50 for an unrated episode

I always felt if Rockstar was asked to develop a game with Temco Koei there will be unapologetic uncensored frontal nudity with hbo tier softcore
I just thought of something, you know how in your original post you said Rockstar could do what KT can never do, full frontal nudity? I find it ironic, because while KT is known for it's dumb beach volleyball game that only horny teenagers get excited over, Koei, before making anything famous, made eroge... not just any old eroge, but the first eroge EVER.

Anyways, DOAX really is like an fanservice OVA of the main series, so it was not destined for great success. It's doesn't seem to be the most engaging game, where a person can derive a lot of enjoyment gamewise or sexually, and it doesn't seem to be great at either.

HOWEVER, everyone likes sexy time even if they pretend they don't, hence why GoT and the Witcher 3 have people okay with the sex for no reason, except people everywhere talk about it so we assume it's okay. This is why people here talk about how much they love porn, but nobody talks about how much they love hentai.

If Rockstar made a great game that was extremely perverted, I bet you people would eat it up. If CD Projekt Red said, "We're going to remove the sex scenes in the Witcher 3, because we are going to appeal to a wider audience blah blah blah" I bet you tons of people here would defend its removal. Since the game is out, and we see Conan O' Brian playing sex scenes on national TV and laughing, and journalists making jokes about sexy time and saying how it is somehow "tasteful", we just assume it's okay, and crack jokes about how perverted we are for enjoying it. *Sigh*
 

Fox12

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Johnny Novgorod said:
fisheries said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why do you think they don't sell.
They don't make much money outside of Japan.
Because both cultural hemispheres have a widely divergent history of sexual taboo and inhibition.
Fox12 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
Because gamers are known for their severe religious prudery?
Up.
I see people say this, and I can't help but feel like they don't know anything about the East or the West. As if they're pulling that from nowhere.

DOA doesn't move crazy numbers in Japan. It makes profit, but it's not a huge AAA hit, which is why a company like Rockstar won't be making anything like it. Furthermore, hentai fans need to stop pretending like Japan is some sexual oasis, especially in contrast to America or Europe. The average Japanese person would be as disturbed by your tentacle hentai as the average American. Maybe then we can accept that sexual taboos are a complex and nuanced subject across cultural boundaries, and not divided into some simplistic prudish and non-prudish binary.
 

runic knight

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Combination of things, but largely all stemming back toward a very puritanical view of sex making it a lot more hassle then it is worth for larger developers, and far more difficult to succeed for smallers ones. Lets take it from the top.

First, audience. Now, lets be honest here, the people who like these games are likely not coming into them from a purely "I want porn" level. It is rather telling how often that gets tossed out when in defense of censoring some games or in justifying why it is ok to attack them, as it reveals the same sort of social shaming mechanisms of the past sex negativity in the culture. There is difference between titillation and outright porn, and there exists audience desire for both. So games of this nature do have a market at least, even if niche. This is also shown by the relative success of games like Honiepop, or the popularity of dating or other sims in the east and the interests they generate in the West. That is despite the existence and easy access to porn, so obviously something about the games is appealing to an audience in a way that porn alone does not appeal to. In this, I don't know what, merely that amid the limitless amounts of porn online, if there is still an actual market for the games, they can't be in complete competition else they would cease. Still, as demonstrated by some posters in the thread, and a lot of the general discussions on the topic around these forums, the view of that audience is a very dismissive "just watch porn instead you lonely etc etc." Stigma like that alone would affect the audience demand. This is offset, in part, by the increased use of online distribution, though not entirely (lets call it "steam library shame syndrome"). But it is based entirely on a very scornful and puritanical judgment of what other people enjoy and would affect audience demand. Sort of less likely for someone constantly being told "that stuff is for loser perverts" to actually want to explore it, and sort of hard for people who do like it to share it with others when viewed in such a way.

Next, viability. In terms of making profit, the games can certainly do that. As long as you aren't stupidly expecting CoD level of sales in making these games, it does still have enough of a niche audience demand to remain profitable. As someone else pointed out, the maker of Honiepop is a millionaire so obviously it isn't a sinkhole for cash if done right. The question is to what extent of investment can you get a worthwhile return on, with more simple games like honiepop, picture-puzzle games or choose your own adventure type games being far more easily made for less, and thus easier to make profit from. I suppose larger companies could take a page out of DoA's book and make games of that sort as tests of new modelers or as afterthoughts with existing tech as a means to cut costs, but that brings up other issues I'll touch on later. With regard to viability though, the games can work to make money off of, though as touched on before, the stigma they carry is prudish and judgmental and that adds another layer to have to fight through and decreases both chances of success and willingness of investors to be tied to the concept.

After that, we return to why larger companies, despite having the resources to cheaply and easily follow DoA's idea, would be unwilling to do so. That is the greater culture mindset that is, as already mentioned, very puritanical about anything related to sex or self gratification. Companies don't want to be associated with that because it is indecent, which would hurt any sort of family-friendly image, or would incite too much political controversy. And while perfectly valid reasons from a business sense, they are nevertheless still intrinsically based upon a cultural negativity toward anything related to sex, and a heavy judgmental view of anything relating to self-gratification in general. It is "dirty" after all.

Now, all that alone is pretty much why the situation is the way it is in terms of such games in the west, though there is one other wrinkle worth mentioning as playing an impact. That is the growth of sex-negative feminism in the western culture. Puritanical judgmentalism that evolved out of the faded "free love" feminism of the past now embracing the prudish ideas of sexuality being bad in the name of saving women by enforcing the exact standards of behavior and disdain towards anything sexual as the religious fundamentalists before them, it reinforces the ideas of shame and disgust towards sexuality (albeit more heavily sexist towards trying to shame male sexuality) on the basis of claims of such sexuality causing harm to one extent or another. Regardless of personal view on this issue though, the fact that this mindset has grown in prominence, especially among the growing internet media, remains a fact of note and also plays a part in why such games are less likely in the west. Torch-bearing controversy mongerers, shrill authoritarian condemners and self-styled would-be censors are sadly something that would need to be faced, and adds yet another layer of bullshit towards any project like what is suggested. Existing companies would be fighting an exponential conflict of not only established cultural mindsets, but also the re-affirming sexual negativity and condemnation (as well as new-wave moralizing and rabble-rousing) of the political group. New companies would face, well, open scorn, attempts to blacklist and attempts to censor as campaigns waged on steam have shown. It all makes it far more effort for a profit that would be more easily obtained with other sorts of games and subject matter.

In the end, it all flows back to the same source point as to why the west doesn't make such games: The culture of sexual puritanicalism is still strong, and while it has changed reason on why it is justified, the attitudes and consequences of violating that taboo are the same now as they were years ago.
 

WindKnight

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Johnny Novgorod said:
fisheries said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why do you think they don't sell.
They don't make much money outside of Japan.
Because both cultural hemispheres have a widely divergent history of sexual taboo and inhibition.
Fox12 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
Because gamers are known for their severe religious prudery?
Up.
https://youtu.be/BevPFBmOdig?t=49m15s

keep going for a couple of minutes till he starts talking about moe.

They make a profit in Japan by not selling well, but targeting a very 'select' audience they know will pay over the odds for them. Can you imagine a western audience paying 5-10 time the going rate for a titty game?

Last I checked, DOAX 3 was $80 to import, with a tonne of grinding involved or expensive micro transactions if you want all the swimsuits..