WHY are used video games bad?

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Darknacht

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Bek359 said:
What's the difference between video games and cars? You don't see the auto industry bitching and moaning about used car sales. Why are video games so special in this regard? Give me a CONVINCING answer, please.
Car manufactures make a lot of money selling replacement parts. This is way cars are built cheep so they break down and need new proprietary parts from the manufacturer. Imagine if game disks were built to wear out after a year. I don't think that would be better.
 

tehweave

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Apr 5, 2009
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Apparently I incited some kind of massive flame war because after posting my last comment and going away from my computer for about 6 hours I had 15 replies to my comment about 'companies being greedy' and people calling me a 'big fat dickhead.' (That last part was paraphrased a bit... A lot.) Let me first say that I was not trying to troll, that was merely my cynical side being... Cynical.

Secondly, I spoke with a friend of mine who likes to do this thing called 'reading.' (Whatever that is.) He said that apparently this whole 'companies disliking used stores' is nothing new. Bookstores, music stores, video stores, all of these have gotten flack in the past from the publishers/producers because they're selling their merchandise at a lower price and making a 100% profit off of it without the companies seeing anything else.

Now, if you can't already tell, I know nothing about business nor about running a company or store. But why is it such a big deal if someone buys a book/movie/album/game from you for full price, sells it to a second-hand store, and someone else buys said merchandise and the second-hand store takes the full profit? It's not the full price, and you ALREADY got the 60 bucks for the game when it was brand-new. (I'm using a video game example now...) How exactly do you lose money from that?

Hm... Could it help if used game stores gave a small fraction of their profit to game companies? Is there a way to do that without causing them to close down? School me, Escapist. I need to understand exactly WHERE companies are losing money on this.
 

Bek359

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Darknacht said:
Bek359 said:
What's the difference between video games and cars? You don't see the auto industry bitching and moaning about used car sales. Why are video games so special in this regard? Give me a CONVINCING answer, please.
Car manufactures make a lot of money selling replacement parts. This is way cars are built cheep so they break down and need new proprietary parts from the manufacturer. Imagine if game disks were built to wear out after a year. I don't think that would be better.
Fine then. How about used books? Used clothes? Used EVERYTHING ELSE that is not a consumable product? Why is it only the video games industry that is subjecting us to this irritating wangst? "Waaaaa, it's not FAIR! You don't know what it's like for us!"
 

Ilyak1986

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StarCecil said:
Rienimportant said:
run_forrest_run said:
Of course it's a money thing. Greedy bastards. My apologies for that outburst of aggression, It's just that all the games I buy are pre-owned.
So why do you only buy pre-owned? Because it's a money thing and you're greedy? Oh wait no, it's obviously because you don't want to feed the moneybags that the developers are obviously stashing away and you're a righteous customer. Duh. My apologies for that outburst of trolling.

But really, my apologies. I should just take it out, but I'd rather leave it in there. It may be rude, but I feel it has a point. I do agree that used games are a fine thing to sell, I think that the whole idea of gamers only buying a license to use the software is such a bunch of bs, but really you can't just blame it on developers. I don't pirate games, but I have friends who say that they pirate games because wait for it...oh yeah. They feel that the developers and publishers are just overcharging for their titles. Which they probably are. Because they spend too much on ads and hype and then too many people pirate the game so they don't make as much as they planned so they raise the prices on the next release and try to stop used game sales because they feel that they're part of the reason that they get gouged when they release a new game, leading to more consumers bitching and then refusing to buy games and continuation.

TL;DR- Vicious cycle of consumers demanding more for less leading to devs following tried and true methods leading to consumers complaining about lame games so they either pirate it or buy it used for cheap because obviously it sucks too much to pay full price leading to publishers and devs trying to limit opportunity for said piracy or used sales, and see top of cycle for continuation.
It's not the consumer's job to support the industry. It's the consumer's job to get as much as he can for as little as possible.

I can't afford to pay for all the games I want at full price, and if there was no used market, I probably wouldn't buy at all. However, there is a used market, and it's a legitimate industry on its own. The reason the developers hate it is because they can't get the money from it.

On the other side, if I buy the game, it's my property. I decide what the fuck I'm going to do with it. Maybe I sell it. Maybe I keep it. Or maybe I use it as a coaster. Once the company has shipped their units to the store, and once I've exchanged money for the game, the company doesn't get a say about what happens next.

StarCecil makes a terrific point here. In my mind, I buy a used game (why pay full price for something I can get at a deep discount), or pirate one (why pay anything for something I can get the full benefit of for free?), because as a consumer, it's my job to get as much stuff I want for as little resources of mine as possible. As a producer, I want to get as much money for as little labor as possible. If I don't get enough money for the work I put in, I'm not going to make anything. If the market will provide a demand for my stuff that can be converted into money in my pockets (or I believe (however mistakenly) that there is), I'll make a widget in an attempt to sell it.

As a consumer, I really can't care less about the producers of, well, just about anything. See, that's the beauty of capitalism--there's this wonderful thing called competition, and when one producer/firm/whatever you want to call them goes out of business, the remaining firms eat up their market share and life happily continues. So long as there's a profit to be made and the costs of entry aren't ginormous (and software is probably the easiest field to create a new property in--after all, all you need is a computer and some specialized software, some of which may even be freely available for download from a community such as the R statistical programming language), then there'll always be nimble small firms willing to try their hand. I mean you *do* know that Google started from a rented garage in a house owned by two girls with a server whose rack was built out of LEGOS, right?

What does that mean for me as a consumer of video games? It means I can buy used (or the P word FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE, since I know how that word is utter heresy around here) to my heart's content because I really don't care what happens to any individual developer. If one goes bust, odds are, there'll be another developer that created some game I can get on the very cheap or free depending on my moral scruples.

At the end of the day, developers need to realize that rational consumers will try to get as much of their something in return for as little something of their own as possible.

And honestly, I don't see why consumers should have such bleeding hearts for producers.

I certainly don't. Know why?

Because to game developers, I'm nothing more than a sales statistic--just a tiny tidbit of the magical market forces that buy their product and pay their rent. And to me, they're faceless entities out of whom comes some sort of circular little piece of plastic (in fact, not even that anymore) that allows me to have some fun.

I mean heck...know one of the biggest selling point to Blizzard's RTSs (Warcraft and Starcraft)?

They don't just sell you the one game. They sell you every other custom game you can find players for. Such as Smashcraft, DotA, etc. etc. etc...and in order to get to play all of those games, well, I have to get on bnet, meaning I need a game key, which I have to order through blizzard. So the $60 is definitely worth it.
 

Fugitive Panda

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While this phenomena certainly isn't unique to video games, there are several unique circumstances that make pre-owned sales a much bigger issue for game developers than they currently are for most other mediums.

After all, you don't often see someone buy a DVD, watch it once, then return it to put money towards another DVD. No, movies are easy to see, and there are numerous ways to go about it. Same with books, so when you buy them, you tend to buy them for life. But a lot of people don't do that with games, especially since they're getting more and more expensive. People buy a new game, beat it, then return it for some money towards the next game. But that used game is then sold for less than a new one, and none of the used profits go to the developers.

This continues to happen, and eventually, there are more than enough used copies being passed around that the shiny new copies are forever on the shelf, and this puts a significant dent in profits. It's not greedy to want to profit from your product.
 

Katana314

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I don't think it's effective to try to organize mass boycotts of used games. People buy how it's cheaper - it just makes sense. But I do think gamers shouldn't complain when things like Project $10 come around.

I hope this message from the similar thread gets across the point I'll try to make:

Katana314 said:
I'm still surprised that people are claiming used games to be the same as used cars. Essentially, games can be called a "service", much like a hooker, because when you pay for it you're not really taking any individual item away from the original owner. There's a disc, but that disc itself has a negligible cost. They're a dime a dozen.

Let's compare it to a ferris wheel at a park. It cost lots of money to build that ferris wheel, but the electricity involved in making it spin is almost zero, so not worth considering. For $60, you buy a ticket that says "The bearer of this ticket is entitled to UNLIMITED rides on this here ferris wheel!" You ride the wheel a number of times, but like anyone, you get bored. So you sell that ticket to another person. It hasn't really lost any of its worth, so you charge the full $60. He can then move on to someone else, and potentially (ridiculously low potential) the whole park could just buy it from the next person in line.

The key here being: That ticket is not a material good; it represents a sort of "permanent ownership license". There is no ecological recycling involved, whereas there IS if you buy a used car or a used shirt or a used house.
I actually would not treat books, albums, or movies differently; in fact, I think the reason there's less stink is that people have more reason to own a movie/album/book than they do a game, given games are boring once beaten. In terms of simple economics though, you're losing potential customers. When not every publishing company is rolling in cash, and in fact some are really happy for every sale they can get, seeing HALF those sales pay to a store that goes nowhere near the publisher is pretty frustrating. It's like "Yup, your media is very popular! But you don't get to see that money."
 

Ilyak1986

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Fugitive Panda said:
While this phenomena certainly isn't unique to video games, there are several unique circumstances that make pre-owned sales a much bigger issue for game developers than they currently are for most other mediums.

After all, you don't often see someone buy a DVD, watch it once, then return it to put money towards another DVD. No, movies are easy to see, and there are numerous ways to go about it. Same with books, so when you buy them, you tend to buy them for life. But a lot of people don't do that with games, especially since they're getting more and more expensive. People buy a new game, beat it, then return it for some money towards the next game. But that used game is then sold for less than a new one, and none of the used profits go to the developers.

This continues to happen, and eventually, there are more than enough used copies being passed around that the shiny new copies are forever on the shelf, and this puts a significant dent in profits. It's not greedy to want to profit from your product.
No it might not be greedy but if you treat your would-be consumers like those who are trying to toe the line of legality (or plainly crossing it) and have an us vs. them attitude, that won't win you any friends.
 

Troublesome Lagomorph

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May 26, 2009
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Cause the actual store gets the money. Its not a lot of money, but really, that's less money to compensate for what the publisher and such invested to make the game to begin with.
Overall its a slippery slope: the developer and stuff doesn't get as much money to justify making the game and the distributor gets some extra cash. It is tipped in favor of the distributor by far, though.
 

Mr. In-between

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They aren't. Anyone who would argue otherwise probably lacks the imagination and creative vision to mastermind their own game.
 

conflictofinterests

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tehweave said:
I need to know this. I buy used video games all the time. I have collections of old games from old systems, yet still I see developers getting mad about used video games and the fact that they're worse than piracy:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/110171-Fable-3-Dev-Used-Games-Sales-are-More-Problematic-Than-Piracy

Is it just because people are buying and re-buying old copies of games? Do the developers want part of that cash? Are they that greedy that they sold the game once, now they want to sell the game again and again and again? I remember hearing that some game developers are thinking of inputting serial codes for old games that need to be re-purchased every time the game is re-sold at a used game store. Oh yeah, there's no way that can backfire.

No, seriously. What's the deal? Is it just a money thing?
It's a money thing, but I think you're downplaying the cost of production on most games. The situation about the same as buying a used book, but books only need to be written by one guy, who only needs to live off the publisher long enough to write the book and for a bit thereafter. They can publish it and pretty much instantly make back their investment almost completely despite how terrible the book may be. Games take teams of people (well educated and generally well paid people) to make and lots of licensing fees and training and tech, and their market is a fraction that of the book publishers. A lot of people will go into a book store, but how big is your local book store compared to your local game store? (Well, up until everyone bought their books digitally). If they don't sell X amount of copies, they might not be able to pay everyone for their hard work (licensing and equipment fees pretty much HAVE to be paid unless someone wants to go to court). Developers get upset at people buying used games and piracy because plenty of game companies go under because they didn't sell enough new copies in the first place.
 

infohippie

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Woodsey said:
Greedy?

If people were using my product, of course I would hope that I actually saw the money from each person using it. That's not greedy, that's called wanting to be paid what you are owed.
No, that's called renting. As opposed to selling, which covers the majority of game transactions. The other thing about selling something, is the buyer then owns it and is perfectly within his rights to sell it on without your further involvement.

EDIT:If a developer makes his game good enough, I wouldn't sell it on. I still own Dungeon Keeper, I-War, Homeworld and many other games that are over a decade old, because they were damn good games. If only a game store near me still took second-hand PC games, I would love to sell on Darksiders, Arcania and a couple others, even though they're a year old or even less, because they sucked and I'd rather get some credit for them than have them sit on my shelf never to be played again.
The answer to used game sales is to write better games that people will want to keep. Give your game some decent replayability, and not some very linear story that's only worth seeing once (if that).
 

OldGus

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tehweave said:
I need to know this. I buy used video games all the time. I have collections of old games from old systems, yet still I see developers getting mad about used video games and the fact that they're worse than piracy:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/110171-Fable-3-Dev-Used-Games-Sales-are-More-Problematic-Than-Piracy

Is it just because people are buying and re-buying old copies of games? Do the developers want part of that cash? Are they that greedy that they sold the game once, now they want to sell the game again and again and again? I remember hearing that some game developers are thinking of inputting serial codes for old games that need to be re-purchased every time the game is re-sold at a used game store. Oh yeah, there's no way that can backfire.

No, seriously. What's the deal? Is it just a money thing?
Yes, its just a money thing. Its not all good or bad, but it is a money thing.
Mainly, its a money thing packaged with another money thing. Video game stores make significantly more profit off of used games than new games (we're talking something like 80% or more versus 10-20%. This could be an exaggeration or an understatement.) In making this profit, they also don't have to pay game companies any royalties for games sold this way (which I think only happens when they buy the stock new in the first place.) And because its (a little) cheaper, more customers would want to buy used games, so game stores don't see any downside really. But, the whole kit and caboodle falls apart for game companies, because they don't see any increase in profits from the deal, like they would with new game sales, direct sales, or direct download. Plus, unlike maybe piracy, or just borrowing the game from a friend, game companies see a little less "honest profit" (from honest players who like the game), because the honest players who bought the game used already paid only 5 dollars less than retail, so why should they buy it retail?

I say a little less, because as much as people like to present it as legitimization of piracy, there aren't really that many honest purchases following piracy I think. At least not as many as, say, from demos.

Here is a long, drawn out, overblown, and geeky analogy merely for poetic reasons. Lets say the world has replicator technology like in Star Trek, but that they all only come with the basics of food and water preloaded, and you have to buy expansion disks (or Culinary Packs) to increase different kinds of things you can eat or drink. But, like the replicators themselves, these Culinary Packs are expensive to make. After all, if you're not just copying based on the best examples you can find in real life, you're making new things or programming, or experimenting. And, each pack has to have a lot of different types, or it wouldn't sell very well, would it? So, while the replicators are pretty expensive to make at maybe $400, the Culinary Packs are not far behind at maybe $20-60, depending on the amount of food available or its quality. This gets marked up again, because the companies need to make money off of it (after paying their chefs and programmers and copiers and so on.) These Culinary Packs are a luxury, there's no denying that, but at the same time, the mighty dollar drives innovation, as companies that routinely produce good quality packs get more money to spend on good quality employees, but companies that don't have a good reputation or good quality product get very little return. And maybe this innovation leads to specialization, like a company that does Ingredient and Spice Packs for the home or professional chef, a company that does Sandwich Packs, another for International Cuisine Packs, another for Revolutionary Food Packs using food purely derived from programming, nothing copied, nothing cooked. Maybe some companies develop randomization protocols so that the food or ingredients replicated don't always look or taste exactly the same. Either way, there is one thing clear. This innovation, this constant change and flux that brings people new things, and a wider variety of specialties, its all driven by the competition for more money. And that competition rewards those who come up with a big hit.

But, lets go to the average consumer. Like I said, these Culinary Packs are expensive. Maybe people can only get one or two packs a year. Its not exactly only the fault of the companies and publishers, after all, they can sell directly for $20-60 a pack, but they usually have to go through retailers who mark it up between $10-50, usually depending on popularity, or how new it is. Let's say you, the consumer, have eaten all 370 different combinations from the Grilled Cheese and Tomato Soup Pack, only really liked maybe 20 of them, and you are now sick of Grilled Cheese and Tomato Soup. Even with pineapple and basil. So, you decide to try buying something new. You're just short on a little cash. So you just go to a store that says they will buy it, and you sell it for maybe $5. Its not much, but at least its better than nothing. So you sell it and then you spot a used copy of Cooked with Canned Tunafish for $5 less than the new copy. Hey, good on you. You're coming out of this deal $10 ahead, as you go home to see what is in the pack other than 50 types of Tuna Sandwich and 100 types of Tuna Casserole, including, improbably enough, Ural Mountain Tuna Casserole. The closest thought to your mind, in fact, is what exactly that is, while the closest thought to the store's mind is "Exactly how much are people willing to buy Grilled Cheese and Tomato Soup Pack for? I'll just sell it for a little less."

Let's go back to the companies. They are noticing that profits of their packs are dropping, even though according to all normal sources, the packs in question are still very popular. That doesn't change one fact... retailers are buying less and less packs. Consumers are less inclined to try the new, different, and experimental packs (at least, while they are brand new.) So, companies cut the new, and rely instead on the old standbys and favorites, the Tomato Soups and Tuna Casseroles, and Grilled Cheeses. They condense Ingredient Packs, or if they come with other Culinary Packs, cut them out completely. They focus on the International Packs that are most traditional or the most regular best-sellers, like the French and Italian Packs. The problem is, this leads to stagnation. While customers in general are satisfied with the favorites and such that are kept, there is a general melancholy over the repetitiveness of it all. But what can companies do? They aren't getting the money that allowed them to innovate before.

This then leads to the Publisher/Retailer war, where companies alternate between punishing everyone they think is cutting into their sales, and actually rewarding honest customers. Some install kill-codes, or require subscriptions. Some open up innovation to fan-recommendations. Some give people who buy new free recipe updates that people who buy used have to pay for. Some give free new recipes for every 100,000 or so sold (new). Some make it so a holodisk becomes imprinted with the first replicator that uses it so that only that replicator can use it in the future. Some lock features unless someone who buys used pays the company $10 (like maybe the Tomato Soup part of the Grilled Cheese and Tomato Soup Pack 3). Advantage is that companies get the money they need so they can start taking risks and innovating again. Disadvantage is that more often customers feel like they are being punished, even when they are rewarded.

Ok, analogy over. I think it can show very well how used games sales aren't exactly good or bad, (but often have inadvertent bad effects) and are all about money.
 

Auxiliary

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It's a money thing. Pretty much stores like gamestop are making huge profits while game developers are screwed over pretty badly. Gamestop buys a small amount of new games and uses aggressive tactics to get you to return it after playing.

I would explain everything myself, but I found the penny arcade comic and these videos to explain it far better than I possibly could.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/30/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHVepwrFTLA
 

lcyw20

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They don't want you to buy used games. They want you to pay them for new copies. They better not let me catch them browsing car-boot sales, or they will look absolutely silly.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Jordi said:
gigastar said:
The simple problem the developers/publishers have is that every time one of thier games is preowned and bought again, they lose money because they dont get paid for the game being preowned, and the guy who bought it preowned now isnt going to buy a fresh one.

So yes, it is a money thing.
Maybe those developers/publishers could take a look at [font color="red"]literally any other industry[/font] and see how deal with this extremely common and legitimate phenomenon.

Strain42 said:
It is essentially a money thing, there's actually an episode of Extra Credits that goes into this subject a little bit deeper.

But like they said in that episode, if you go buy a new game from GameStop or something, only a small percentage of that actually goes to the developers of the game. If you buy a game used from GameStop, none of it goes to the developers.

So yeah, used games may be awesome for the player because they're cheaper, they really don't do the developers of the game any favors. I only buy used games if it's something I wanna play, but don't really have all that much support for.

If it's a game company you're trying to support and want to see more from them, it helps them out a lot more if you buy it new.

Like right now, I'm part of the crusade to help get Ace Attorney Investigations 2 localized in the states. The best way to do this is to try to convince people to pick up new copies of any of the AA games (yes, it hasn't been an easy task)
Don't you think it is kind of odd that when we buy games, we are apparently supposed to worry about who is getting our money, but if you buy anything else you don't. I mean, if I buy a used car, nobody is going to make a big deal about Wayne Enterprises not getting any of my money even though they built it. Why is it different with games?
I take it you have never heard of a Fair Trade products? Products where the money will go to the person who made it rather than the middle men? This actually affects a whole lot of products.
Why should we care who gets the money? Well, let's see. If the industry doesn't get money, they are unable to make games. Used car doesn't get this treatment because the sale of a car covers the production costs and gives a profit. Do you think that a 20-100 dollar game covers the cost of months-years of development time?
Also the sale statistics gets skewed. If a game isn't bought it seems like it was an unpopular game, but that might be simply because so many bought it used. Because of bad statistics that game might not get a sequel.
That's why we got DLC to make up for it, and that's a great idea for both parts. Still most complain about this. I even saw someone planning on boycotting a game (I think it was Mortal Kombat) because multiplayer was free DLC that came bundled with the game (those who bought it used had to buy it).

Used game sales are bad because it hurts the industry, it's not illegal, nor should it be, but it takes away money from the publishers and developers.
 

Gunner 51

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MrMoustaffa said:
What cracks me up is you never hear car companies complaining about used car sales, or Guitar companies complaining over used guitar sales, and construction companies arent complaining over selling "used" houses,why should games be different? You bought the game, it is yours to do whatever you want to with it. Play it, use it as a frisbee, or sell it yourself when you're done, its you property, so do whatever you want with it. Yes, companies claim that you are merely purchasing a "liscense" to use the software, but I dont think that policy will hold up much longer.

The problem is that game developers want that cash that they lose to used sales, so they've started including more DLC, or in the really annoying cases, locking roughly half the game unless you have a certain code, that only works once with a new copy (aka EA and locking out multiplayer until you buy an online pass)You have every right to buy used games, so don't let the developers complaining get you down. I've started buying a couple of new games from developers I really like so that they'll get the money, but I would say roughly 90% of my games are still bought used.

TL;DR, there are used markets for almost everything else you can imagine, so why on earth should games be excluded. Dont let it bother you and buy however you feel is the smartest way to buy.
You sir, hit the nail on the head - especially with the first paragraph. Once money changes hands, the game becomes the possession of whoever paid for it.

To re-cap the circle of game life:

1.) Dev makes game - game is their property.
2.) Dev sells to publisher - game is publisher's property.
3.) Publisher sells to retailers - game is retailer's property.
4.) Retailer sells to gamer - game now belongs to the gamer.
5.) Gamer sells game to his pal or back to the retailer - the game is now their property.

The developer loses the right to ***** about being hard done by once they sell their games for a pittance to the publisher. If they don't like the way the publishers treat them - choose one that will treat them better.

The retailer and the gamer owes the developer nothing beyond what the retailer has charged them.

If the retailer sold directly to the gamer, cutting out the middlemen and at a suitable discount (as you are now buying wholesale) - then I won't have a problem. But even if sold directly to the gamer, they still charge near full whack for their game.

When they stop acting like a cartel, I will view developers and publishers alike with a little more business respect.
 

breadsammich

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I have three letters that invalidate every gripe the companies have about used games: DLC

They make money even after the purchase has been made.