Or swim in a sea of titties for long enough and you gonna drown. God damn it Ash.bug_of_war said:
Why the "big boobs" "absurd female design" still exists?
- Thread starter nightmare_gorilla
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Oh and to say a woman would never wear something sexy should she have the "reason" is to never been to U.S. during Halloween. You see both men and women in great figures showing as much skin as legally possible. 
In a fantasy setting where armor gives little to no real defense. Might as well go out like Red Sonya and Conan the Barbarian, if you have the figure for it why hide it?
In a fantasy setting where armor gives little to no real defense. Might as well go out like Red Sonya and Conan the Barbarian, if you have the figure for it why hide it?
I trust Kotaku's opinion on feminism about as much as I trust FOX News to report on Muslims.Rebel_Raven said:
The "sexism" in the gaming industry in my experience comes from women expecting better treatment than everyone else simply for being women and using sexism as an excuse. I've seen the Twitter wars, I've seen women attempt to maliciously ruin men's careers over baseless allegations of sexism or harassment, and I won't fall for the crocodile tears.
People like Anita Sarkeesian or Richards and the 'Donglegate' scandal prove that a significant number of women in the tech industry use allegations of sexism as a tool to get their way. Sarkeesian has of course been torn to shreds by the public and Richards was fired for her conduct. This doesn't demonstrate that the industry hates women, it demonstrates that 'everyone' hates a certain kind of person who attempts to capitalize on outrage for their own selfish purposes.
My hobby is not a medium for you, or anyone else, to push their political or social agenda, it has no place in escapism.
Anyone can succeed in the videogame industry, the success of indie titles proves that, having breasts or not has no place in a medium where success is determined by results.
Ya know, I wouldn't really know. I'm not a feminist. I'm not a sarkeesianite, either. I'm just a gamer wanting better representation in number, and quality of females in games. Especially female protagonists. This will no doubt add some variety to the endless sea of white 20-30 something dudes that star in almost every last game.Dansrage said:
It's nto my job to make games. I am in no way qualified, either in talent, or vision to do this. Is it wrong of me to ask people who's job it is to make games to do these things?
And to stop hampering the development of female protagonists?
It's fine to be skeptical, but ignoring it when it's true is another matter, I'd say.
Ad hominem attacks won't accomplish much, either.
Further, you don't own your hobby any more than anyone else. You can hate what people do all you want, but opinions will be spoken, for better or worse.
Breasts, dongs, etc. has nothing to do with success in games, it's true. Talent does. Expecting everyone that's unhappy to have this talent (Or the time, and money and resources to hone it) is insane, though.
The whole "make your own game!" argument is wearing pretty thin on me the way it's thrown about without consideration of anything but the desire to shut the person it's thrown at up.
I basically say that, too, with many people, over, and over again. And yet, I often see those same people using the same arguments I pretty much left them unable to defend over, and over, and over again. It's like they're bored, or trying to troll, or suqeezing us dry of out information.IllumInaTIma said:
but last of us kinda proves my point in that they didn't want a girl on the cover, because people don't buy games with women on the cover, at least that's how the marketing team perceived it apparently. yeah it's a huge success, good, buy that. but you can find plenty of examples of well written strong females in games because it's such a broad medium. and each and every one is praised for being more or less an anomaly to the normal. they are the exception that proves the rule. no game company believes the female gamer is a strong enough demographic to market exclusively to it. and sales figures back that up. these are not the tits of oppression or sexism, they are the tits of mass appeal and market strategies.Fox12 said:
that seems fair, but can you describe exactly what it is you're after? more sensual males? insane muscles? perfect complexions? heroism? 'just being nice' cause I really don't know ( as a guy myself ) what it is women actually look for and what I can directly compare between the sexes, if anything.TehCookie said:
basically what's the male equivalent of T+A curves and a nice smile?
do tell.
It's because an "overwhelming majority" DOESN'T hate the ridiculously-oversexed paradigm. A decent portion of the game-buying public doesn't give a rat's ass what goes on the cover of their games, and will play pretty much anything they hear is good. A small(er) subset of these actively seeks out games with that design. The group of people who are genuinely upset enough with the standard female design in game development is a depressingly-small subset. The number of people who are of the game-playing sort who are willing to actually BOYCOTT a game over its art design is smaller still. Sex still sells, and likely always will. This is a fundamental truth that anyone selling stuff to human beings will have to accept. The best (ABSOLUTE BEST) result we can hope for is that we get sexiness aimed at pleasing everyone instead of just the straight, white college-aged men the entire market panders towards right now. (that's not sexiness that appeals to everyone; that's dumb and highly-improbable. I mean instances of sexy characters that appeal to people OTHER than the straight-white-male-blablablah.)
There's nothing inherently wrong with big boobs. No serious feminist critic has ever or will ever make that argument. The issue with a lot of these designs we see popping up is the abject commodification of female anatomy for suspect and frankly dehumanising purposes.
Furthermore, anyone claiming that video games as a culture and industry isn't still horrendously sexist by any reasonable standard is being willfully ignorant of sexual politics.
Furthermore, anyone claiming that video games as a culture and industry isn't still horrendously sexist by any reasonable standard is being willfully ignorant of sexual politics.
Because men are silly and like big wobbly titties that don't exist in real life except on particularly monstrous porn stars or fat people. And the industry only cares about men even though women give them a fair chunk (maybe 1/4 since the other 1/4 that's supposedly female is apparently ALL Casual (-.-)) of their income and make up a fair chunk of their audience and thus should be equally catered for. Where in lies the problem for women. Since gamer's don't tend to care if their women characters are tiny lumps of wobbly flesh, there's no reason to really have it since it offends female gamer's if its all we get and see everywhere.
Well, let me start by saying that I'm not offended, but sort of casually nonplussed by cleavage babes in gaming. If I see eye candy I'll be likely to think the game is shooting for a lowest-common-denominator, "dudebro" type of target market and it's not going to be my thing. However...
I'm confused by the repeated contention that this is "everywhere". In my gaming life it seldom comes up. The last time I saw it was the eye-rollingly ridiculous alien stripper armour that Kerrigan was dressed in in HotS. I've probably dabbled in 20 different games since then without a demeaned female in sight. I'd say that's an easily maintained average; if you name one game which has this issue I can name you 20 that don't. Sucks if the one that has it is a game you desperately want, but very easy to avoid if it bothers you. I mean, if this problem was truly "everywhere" and we were all "burnt out" on it, why is this debate centred around a fringe game like Dragon's Crown? There's a lot of bigger games out there (and smaller ones, too, if that's your thing).
Furthermore, I would say that Dragon's Crown has more mitigation here than something like stripper-Kerrigan or Arctic-bikini Sejuani, because it IS in context. Not the context of the story of Dragon's Crown (whatever the hell that may be) but the context of a game with an extravagant art style where everyone's body is disproportionate. If the sorceress was shaped like Ellie, or new Lara, she would actually look out of place. That's context for you right there. I can absolutely understand people being put off by the art style, but to my mind, in the monotonous world of modern AAA gaming at least it HAS an art style. I mean, how can you say 'not this again' when none of the characters look like anyone I've ever seen in a game before, ever? If you were so inclined, you could claim this game as breaking new ground for women in games on the basis that the Amazon is the first genuinely, gloriously ugly female playable character I can ever recall seeing.
But no-one notices the ugly girl 'cause they're too busy watching the boobs jiggle ;P
I'm confused by the repeated contention that this is "everywhere". In my gaming life it seldom comes up. The last time I saw it was the eye-rollingly ridiculous alien stripper armour that Kerrigan was dressed in in HotS. I've probably dabbled in 20 different games since then without a demeaned female in sight. I'd say that's an easily maintained average; if you name one game which has this issue I can name you 20 that don't. Sucks if the one that has it is a game you desperately want, but very easy to avoid if it bothers you. I mean, if this problem was truly "everywhere" and we were all "burnt out" on it, why is this debate centred around a fringe game like Dragon's Crown? There's a lot of bigger games out there (and smaller ones, too, if that's your thing).
Furthermore, I would say that Dragon's Crown has more mitigation here than something like stripper-Kerrigan or Arctic-bikini Sejuani, because it IS in context. Not the context of the story of Dragon's Crown (whatever the hell that may be) but the context of a game with an extravagant art style where everyone's body is disproportionate. If the sorceress was shaped like Ellie, or new Lara, she would actually look out of place. That's context for you right there. I can absolutely understand people being put off by the art style, but to my mind, in the monotonous world of modern AAA gaming at least it HAS an art style. I mean, how can you say 'not this again' when none of the characters look like anyone I've ever seen in a game before, ever? If you were so inclined, you could claim this game as breaking new ground for women in games on the basis that the Amazon is the first genuinely, gloriously ugly female playable character I can ever recall seeing.
But no-one notices the ugly girl 'cause they're too busy watching the boobs jiggle ;P
But what is wrong with this argument???Rebel_Raven said:
You want something done and you can't do it yourself. It means you have to purchase interest of someone who can.
If you can promise a game developer major sales in exchange for a game with strong female protagonist then you will get his interest - because "money talks, walks".
It does not even has to be "bestselling game since COD MW" - just enough sales to cover development cost + a tidy profit.
But I hear exactly the opposite argument.
"Share of female gamers in hardcore gaming experiences is low because of lack of good female protagonists.
So make more female protagonists"
This is why the argument "How about you do it yourself" is thrown out.
You promise nothing, but you ask for investment and effort.
In business sense you are telling the game developer to invest into a gamble that might or might not help him expand a market, that is gigantic as it is.
And when the said developer will invest into this gamble - he isn't even guaranteed to profit from this investment, because the second there will be a big market in selling hardcore games to female gamers, you will see Blizzard, Activition and Ubisoft all jump on the bandwagon and elbow the little guy out.
There is money in making games with strong protagonists.
All successes of games with female protagonists are just that: a game, that is carried by a strong protagonist.
That just happens to be female.
This.IllumInaTIma said:
I agree absolutely, totally, and whole-heartedly with this sentiment...with one small exception.
I...I still enjoy the revealing clothing. Occasionally. Not all of the time, mind! It really depends on the character, after all and, hell, some characters are damned sexy in full armor*.
*See Hilde and Kayle.
Because it assumes the person has something to offer. That's what's wrong with it, for one.Sean Deli said:
For two, it feels like the equivalent of "STFU!!!" That's not going to help anything.
If people are going to make their own game, they would have, wouldn't they? Thre's no real point in just throwing "Make your own game!" at them, then. Especially when the people throwing out the "Make your own game!" don't even have the courtesy to offer any information on how to do this. Prolly coz it's easier said than done!
Thing is:
I don't have the money to purchase someone who can.
I don't have an idea, the vision, to offer.
I can't offer a decent computer either.
So, what, exactly am I to do?
See, the problem with your plan is I'd need something sure fire. Again, I lack the vision for a female protgonist. I'm not crazy enough to guarentee anything. Without vision, then it's up to them to create the female protagonist.
I'd like to leave it to some pros to make a decent game with a female protagonist. I know they can do it.
If I did have the cash, I'd invest in it.
The problem with the last bit you wrote is that when a game fails with a female protagonist, they blame the female protagonist. Nothing else factors in. Not how bad the game might be, or how much effort they put into letting people know that the game exists. That culminates into the fear of making female protagonists, the demands that they be turned into men, cutting them from the game, moving them to the back of the box, asking them to hold guns, and preventing them from having agency, especially in a straight relationship.
If games with male protagonists were treated the same, we wouldn't have any gendered protagonists anymore.
The Witcher 2 has sex in it. It's just kinda there though and isn't a game mechanic or anything.LetalisK said:
Despite having sex in it, all the women are reasonably proportioned and normal looking, going from ginger beauties, sultry brunettes, to fat tavern wenches and wizened old women, and Ves who is just completely normal.
You can still buy the games that actually offer good females and advertize them to your friends. This way you show the investors/publishers that there actually is a market for such a thing. In the end that's the only effective way as a consumer.Rebel_Raven said:
There is also people who don't really care about the tits and just like the gameplay.NoeL said:
I for example enjoyed the Soul Calibur series. I don't buy them for tits and i dont even have the time to stare at them during a fight. I like the freedom in the character creation and the big singleplayer mode. Art is always gonna be one of the least important factors in a game for me, at long as it isn't ugly or entirely grotesque.
I don't understand your exception. Soul Calibur can (theoretically) exist without the tits, but they're in there to appeal to tit lovers (you just wouldn't fit that particular demographic - or at least not the demographic that would factor tits into their purchase decision).lapan said: