Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

[AboveUp]

I'm quite surprised here. I didn't expect Yahtzee would go and actually admit to liking certain JRPGs... And I certainly didn't expect to agree with his choices. Now I just wonder if he played the Soul Blazer series and what thought of it. Somehow I think he could enjoy that line of action-RPGs.

 

[JEBWrench]

If by jRPG you mean Final Fantasy that's fine... though the most cohesive story in recent series history was Final Fantasy XII and people loathed that game because it was a political story (much like Final Fantasy Tactics) rather than a Cloud/Squall/Tidus story. Have you played any of the Mistwalker games? Have you played any Monolith Soft games? Any of the Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series? Shadow Hearts? Jeanne D'arc? What are you basing that on?

Shadow Hearts, just the original. Final Fantasy X turned me off the genre so much that I stopped playing after having realized I hadn't really enjoyed a JRPG's story since Suikoden II.

 

[The Great JT]

Final Fantasy VI
...The story, crucially, was easy to follow. None of that 'dream of the fayth' or 'smashing together past and future like pillowy breasts in a granite wonderbra' bullshit - just a rag-tag group of assorted heroes up against a demented villain who wants to blow up the world because he feels like it...

And yet Kefka's still 20 times more competent than Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Kuja and whoever the big bad of Final Fantasy X is (because by the end it's such a gordian knot pretzel of confusion you may as well just say Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Game is the big bad) because he actually DOES make that big apocalypse moment in the middle of the game. Plus, let's not forget likeable cast that all has some element of tragedy in their backgrounds (Cyan, Locke, Celes, Shadow and Terra) and "the scene," you know which ones I mean. That one scene that every Final Fantasy has been desperately trying to re-capture and failing horribly at it every time (killing Aeris, the whole of Squall In Space, spontaneous romance involving Tidus and Yuna, all pale in comparison to the scene in question).

Spoiler: The Scene...

...is the Opera Event.

 

[Dark Angel Warlord]

Extra Punctuation: Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

What JRPGs does Yahtzee actually like?

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i bet he has terrible penman ship
but omg on computer hes the best

 

[Abriael]

This might sound like me hyperbolically overstating things for comic effect again, but if you claim to have enjoyed playing Final Fantasy XIII, then you are wrong. Because I don't think you can use the word 'playing' in this context. Final Fantasy XIII is more like something you 'watch', or 'are subjected to'. For the lion's share of the game the only real input the player has is during battles (and even that's a loose and uninvolving input)

Yes, it sounds like you hyperbolically overstating things for controversy effect.
Or more because you're bent over so many people calling you on the fact that your "review" of FFXIII was misinformative on so many levels, that I'd define it more of a disjointed rant than anything else.

So be it, i will cave in and respond to your plea for attention.

I enjoyed and Enjoy Final Fantasy XIII, at the moment i'm savoring the open endedness that's chapter 11 fully, on my 117th hour of gameplay. And mind you, you're no one to say that I'm "wrong".

I never once felt, during the game, as I wasn't in control. Maybe because I wasn't so biased against it and I actually took the few minutes necessary to read the tutorials (you look like you didn't) and master the Paradigm Shift system, that is very complex, tactical, and requires a good deal of tactic and forward-thinking to use to it's full extent.

You say you're not in control? Really? What is "being in control" like? In games it normally means that the game puts a problem in front of you, and you have to solve such problem through input.
Even during the most linear parts, Final Fantasy XIII puts enemies in front of you, and you have to decide how to kill them. That's the very definition of being "in control".

And by the way, God forbid a game not forcing the gamer to mindlessly mash buttons randomly over and over! Tactical approach is the devil! I seriously wonder what you thought of Battle Chess...

Funny, though, that you continue to rant about the alleged "fashion sense" of Final Fantasy characters, given that not counting Vanille's skirt, the characters in Final Fantasy XIII all wear some fairly normal and practical outfits. Makes me wonder if you paid actually paid attention during those meager 5 hours.
To be further honest, I've been wonder if you DID play those 5 hours, or simply mashed together a few misiformed opinions read somewhere.

Seriously, do yourself a favor, Yatzhee, don't defend your "review" further. You're just digging yourself in deeper.
Your personal fanboys will like you anyway, though, don't worry. Now that you're feeling reassured and validated again you can move on to the next game you'll bash.

 

[DairyDuke]

Any of the Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series? What are you basing that on?

I've also wanted to see a few reviews to some of the older jrpgs. Mostly, all the Shin Megami Tensei ones. They're all essentially the same gameplay, with a special element to them. Like cupcakes with different frosting. But, if we had to pick one that's more current, I'd like to see a review on Strange Journey which I'm still playing at the moment.

 

[SavingPrincess]

From Wikipedia, the free enyclopedia that anyone can edit.

Roleplaying since its 'formal' inception in the original edition of Dungeons and Dragons has always been about creating an avatar or persona that you shape and mould. You assume that persona and you develop that character over the course of their adventures.

If "roleplaying game" means simply "taking on the role of a character" then that becomes a pretty broad brush which you could also apply to first-person shooters, third-person shooters, adventure games, real-time strategy games, turn-based strategy games, many mindless browser games, candlestick makers and perhaps even partridges in a pear tree.

I'm not sure, though, why I'm making this post since, you clearly don't have much of a grasp on what the genre is supposed to encapsulate. I feel like someone just tried to tell me that Linkin Park is heavy metal, except I'm not overcome by uproarious laughter.

So in that definition, the only RPG's in your mind are table top. I'm talking about video game RPG's. You can't have a sense of a "Game Master" in a video game unless you spend your time on the online Neverwinter Nights community. So table-top definitions don't apply; and yes, the idea that "role playing games" have encapsulated any game where you assume the role of a character in a story has been covered in game journalism over and over again.

Name one VIDEO game besides Neverwinter Nights (because it actually has the ability to be a "game master") that even comes close to your aforementioned definition of what an RPG is. The fact of the matter is the definitions are contextual. Video game RPG's are different than Dungeons & Dragons... sorry. "You," as in the first person, can't create a rich and fully developed character in a game with pre-determined plot and dialogue options... the most you can hope for are choices in how you want your character to say the predetermined dialogue that moves the narrative along. Do you sit around and play Oblivion while muttering to yourself about your own backstory? Do you play World of Warcraft and do the exact same quests as everyone else while pretending that somehow you are different? While I'm all for imagination, video games are interactive entertainment... they are the product of someone else's imagination coupled with your own reasonable suspension of disbelief. So, since I "clearly" don't know what the genre of a "video game RPG" is supposed to encapsulate, why don't you enlighten me with a few examples of it done right?

 

[Ravek]

fantastic adventure through time and space and saving the world from cosmic horrors

A fantastic adventure indeed, Chrono Trigger was incredibly awesome. The best thing about it was probably that due to the time travel you actually saw the world-shaping events you caused or prevented have effect. Or maybe the best thing was how the very simple combat mechanics still caused an incredible amount of strategic depth.

 

[dreadedcandiru99]

Personally, I gave up on FF13 just as I got to Pulse (you know, the "BUT IT GETS GOOD TWENTY HOURS IN!!1!" part that the fanboys keep bellowing about).

I like the it gets good 20 hours in because they are admiting that the first 20 hours are complete crap.

Exactly. Is it really so unreasonable to insist that games should be good from the very beginning? Why make us wait for it? You would never voluntarily go to a restaurant that only gives you a slice of delicious chocolate cake after you chow down on a bucket of dogshit, would you?

On an unrelated note: did anyone else notice that the Eidolons were completely unnecessary? I know I never used them.

 

[skylog]

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance was the last FF game I played. The customizing was a lot of fun to fool around with, and the way the environment affected combat made each battle engaging. The story wasn't half bad, either. Very meta.

I still say Yahtzee needs to try some of the less overblown JRPGs. Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey is a good candidate for that review, and I'd be curious to see what he thinks of the Pokemon series.

He's mentioned that he used to watch the show, but given how the bulk of the game's enjoyment comes from the social aspect (and we all know Yahtzee's stance on multiplayer), combined with the micro-managing that goes with certain aspects like EV training, I'd bet that he's not a fan.

 

[Malyc]

I'm gonna have to agree with Yahtzee on the fact that taking turns hitting each other is a stupid way to fight. In order to win a real fight, you have to beat the other guy so hard and fast that he doesn't have a chance to hit back, thereby saving yourself some pain and injury, other than the broken knuckles that result from punching somebody's skull too hard.

 

[Almgandi]

Personally, I gave up on FF13 just as I got to Pulse (you know, the "BUT IT GETS GOOD TWENTY HOURS IN!!1!" part that the fanboys keep bellowing about). Besides the fact that I'd had an increasingly difficult time giving a shit about any of the characters already, I realized that the ending would probably come along after I was done doing whatever the game wanted me to do in its one and only non-hallway section, that FF games tend to have massive difficulty spikes at the end, and that to have any hope of winning, I was probably going to have to start grinding here--and I hate goddamned grinding. So yeah, one day I went to turn the game back on, and I realized that I just didn't want to.

Also, even twenty hours in, I still wasn't completely sure what the fuck the story was about, and no, I wasn't interested in reading the mountain of crap in the "datalog" to find out. Yes, the Mass Effect games have the same thing, but at least they don't force you to read it in order to know what's going on. I never had to; everything I needed to know about the story was actually included in the story.

It's not a fanboy thing. The game is actually pretty good in the second halfish part. Also if did*nt get what the story was about until that point without datalog then you are either really blunt or didn't bother listening to the dialogue at all. However, everybody who has actually bought this game should question if they would enjoy throwing their money into the face of other people for raping their childhood. The last overall good ff was 10 and I hope that either SE changes the way they do things or another company continues the series

 

[Kasawd]

What I really miss from the final fantasy series is the exploration of the overworld map. I enjoyed poking around meaninglessly, for hours, searching for small treasures or secrets for the sake of enjoyment. I think this is one of the reason that I cannot enjoy Final Fantasy Thirteen.

It feels stripped down, to me. Every time I pick up the game to continue, I do so begrudgingly, usually opting out after an hour or two of gameplay to pop in White Knight Chronicles.

As it turns out, my favourite installment in the series is number six. Whether this is a matter of actual plot and colourful characters(which I think it is) or the fact that it was this game that introduced me to the RPG video game genre, I seriously enjoy playing it over and over again. I found that seeking out the characters and sidequests in final fantasy six was done brilliantly.

I'm still playing Chrono Trigger, though. I really have to beat that game.

 

[QmunkE]

I've not played a Final Fantasy since IX (not having owned a PS2 or been remotely interested in MMOGs) but nothing has come close to VII for me yet. I loved pretty much every aspect - the storyline is big, complex and interesting (and even has room for two completely optional characters). The leveling system is simple - you level up, your stats get better. Some characters are better than others at some stuff. But the real standout for me was the materia system. It scaled really well as the game progressed, you could do interesting things by putting some stuff together, and it was intuitive.

One of my major criticisms of FFXIII would be that it's pretty much impossible to effectively upgrade your weapons without a guide - you'd waste so much in resources if you didn't know how many levels weapons had or how much EXP it took to upgrade them to transform level. Also, the combat _is_ really bland and nonsensical - why should your followers be able to get KO'd and not the leader?

 

[Grampy_bone]

*snip*

But it's been somewhere around ten years since a JRPG has produced anything remotely resembling a cohesive story.

If by jRPG you mean Final Fantasy that's fine... though the most cohesive story in recent series history was Final Fantasy XII and people loathed that game because it was a political story (much like Final Fantasy Tactics) rather than a Cloud/Squall/Tidus story. Have you played any of the Mistwalker games? Have you played any Monolith Soft games? Any of the Persona/Shin Megami Tensei series? Shadow Hearts? Jeanne D'arc? What are you basing that on?

I loathed FF12 because it was a boring story. Yasumi Matsuno did such an excellent job with Tactics and Vagrant Story, it must be that the Committee Design screwed FF12. It's no wonder he quit in disgust halfway through the project.

In any case, when someone complains that jRPGs have an incoherent story they're only proving their ignorance. Furthermore, when compared to the laughably sophomoric nonsense contained in Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2, you wonder about their basis for comparison.

 

[Caiti Voltaire]

So in that definition, the only RPG's in your mind are table top. I'm talking about video game RPG's. You can't have a sense of a "Game Master" in a video game unless you spend your time on the online Neverwinter Nights community. So table-top definitions don't apply; and yes, the idea that "role playing games" have encapsulated any game where you assume the role of a character in a story has been covered in game journalism over and over again.

Name one VIDEO game besides Neverwinter Nights (because it actually has the ability to be a "game master") that even comes close to your aforementioned definition of what an RPG is. The fact of the matter is the definitions are contextual. Video game RPG's are different than Dungeons & Dragons... sorry. "You," as in the first person, can't create a rich and fully developed character in a game with pre-determined plot and dialogue options... the most you can hope for are choices in how you want your character to say the predetermined dialogue that moves the narrative along. Do you sit around and play Oblivion while muttering to yourself about your own backstory? Do you play World of Warcraft and do the exact same quests as everyone else while pretending that somehow you are different? While I'm all for imagination, video games are interactive entertainment... they are the product of someone else's imagination coupled with your own reasonable suspension of disbelief. So, since I "clearly" don't know what the genre of a "video game RPG" is supposed to encapsulate, why don't you enlighten me with a few examples of it done right?

You've never played actual RPGs before, have you? Seriously, actual RPGs. You know, the games that come in the boxes, sometimes with CDs, which advertise roleplaying on the covers? Your ignorance is not my problem, its yours, but its becoming increasingly evident you don't know what you're talking about. NO BAD MAYA WE MUST MAKE INTELLECTUAL ARGUEMENTS.

A good RPG is one that allows you the freedom to develop your own persona without shoehorning you into an extremely linear plot that allows for no choice in character development. There are some interesting examples of these in both Japaneese and ... everyone else's ... games, albeit many are dated. If you want an excellent story with good character development than a good example was the Eye of the Beholder series before it started shitting all over itself. It had a very well-written story which you could break from with no penalty other than ... not finishing the game until you came back, and the characters felt like actual characters instead of the bland over-stereotypical set pieces of many JRPGs such as the much-maligned Final Fantasy. My best example of the RPG genre is probably Planescape: Torment. It is basically the game that spawned the moral choice system. You could play some angelic guy out to redeem himself and everyone around him, or some depraved badass who kicked so much innocent's ass he probably needed to find a party member just to wash his feet. The story was probably one of the best examples of writing to come out of any RPG developer ever. Yes even compared to Mass Effect or Final Fantasy, you drooling fanboys you. Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal are also good examples, though they don't quite catch the same flame as PS:T. Disagea is kind of horrible as an example and you're probably wondering why I would then suggest it, but it approaches the whole thing with the same underlying tone of parody that endears itself to me that Resident Evil 4 did.

It's really, really hard not to come off as an elitist snob here, because it really is the difference between night and day here. We have shallow, poorly written set pieces which like some sort of manifestation of the Twilight series somehow capture the imagination of the mindless mainstream, and then we have actual thoughtfully-designed and -written games which have well-designed gameplay and compelling stories.

 

[Mordwyl]

Yahtzee missed Lufia 2, but otherwise he knows his JRPGs.