he's not comparing the book to the game, his just using the book as an example
refering to you sennz0r
refering to you sennz0r
Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
To Arntor, I don't really know where she's coming from, but I've already clarified that I speak using the terms as defined in the dictionary. Any confusion on her part should be nil considering I even include THE DEFINITIONS I'M USING!...and what an odd metaphor. Really weird visual, you know?
VeryOblivious...They were deceived so that their perspective wouldn't reveal any true objective? You want to clarify that? I understand "Keep people from referring to ZE PATRIOTS!" but I'm not catching where you're going with that line. You may want to expound a tad bit.
As for my point relating to it, it still stands. If they can infiltrate your thoughts then how would you keep, oh, say a birth secret from them? If they're so good at what they do and have used Cockwit Lightning's wife against him before, why not hit her up with a handy dandy dose of nanomachines even if only to say they hold her life in their hands and to keep tabs on her. In other words it falls pray to the same thing many of the "SHADOW ORGANIZATION" plots do in that we've got these highly competent people/creatures overlooking something monumentally important. When setting them up as intelligent, or at least thorough, they shouldn't be making blatantly obvious mistakes.
Even that as an aside, the plot goes convoluted like nobodies business. A great example is Ocelot. By the end of this game, he SPOILERS! Is Ocelot, who is pretending to be liquid snake by using hypnosis, who is liquid snake (Snakes evil clone brother) because he grafted liquids arm onto his own stump after getting his arm cut off by a cyborg zombie ninja and possessed by it due to inheriting his fathers (the sorrow) ability to commune with spirits, who is pretending to be Ocelot, who is working for Solidus, who is working for GRUE, who is working for the FBI or CIA, who is actually working for Col. Galukavitch and a mercenary group, who is really working for the patriots, but in actuality is really working for Big Boss.......While I can understand that, I've yet to see a character with such a convoluted buildup. Well, I probably have, but still, that's one DOOZY of a backstory. Oh, and I think the ninja came from N.A.S.A as well. I'm throwing that odd point out there just because of how much more ridiculous it makes that. END OF SPOILERS
No...It's not subjective. I'm not going for "interpretive language" here. It's all cold, hard, and dictionary based. It's not in "THE summation" then. I got on a tangent because of just how little she manages to read/comprehend. Wall of text aside, my writing takes all of two to three minutes to read. You can even type while reading for a "point by point" argument. I set it up that way on purpose.
As for irrelivant text, aside from the ad hominem attacks none of it is really irrelevant. I'm addressing individual problems I see in others arguments while making counter points to their assertions. I can understand not caring about some of it, but I can't make a COUNTER point unless someone makes a point in the first place to work with hence my spacing. I start new paragraphs in response to each point/problem I see as I read.
To Jumplion, my statements are about as clear as humanly possible. I've even got them separated into neat paragraphs. They may lack numbers now, but it's essentially an itemized list sans the numbering. As for the game itself, I watch people play games. I don't always play them myself. Hence the lack of complaints about gameplay elements. I can only complain about what I've seen. Though for the record I did play MGS 3. Not just watched it, got into it. Aside from a few issues with some of the maneuvers, such as figuring out how to interrogate someone without the booklet, I don't really have much to complain about in the gameplay department...Well, at least not here anyway.
To Shatnershaman, as I said, I've only seen it. I can't go into the gameplay because I wasn't asking my buddy for a blow by blow when it came to controls.
For the record, just getting this out there, but I decided to watch a few peoples reviews on the game for shits and giggles. I believe it was either IGN or G4 that caught my attention, because while it gave it an astounding score, it also pointed out the same issues I and others have been talking about. I found that odd considering reviewers lately have been overly nice so a crack at the overly verbose dialogs and lengthy cutscenes came out of left field.
And to TeH_InFErNo, that's the point. sennz0r is saying how ridiculous it is to use a book as an example when referring to a game. They're inherently different mediums that follow different rules of presentation. Now, if Terra had only reference the story aspect of both, she'd still be off because MGS 4 hypes action. It even has it in the title. One can safely assume that when a game has something in it's title than one can expect it in the game, which includes the story aspect of the game...Though I can't argue with the action in some of the cutscenes.
VeryOblivious...They were deceived so that their perspective wouldn't reveal any true objective? You want to clarify that? I understand "Keep people from referring to ZE PATRIOTS!" but I'm not catching where you're going with that line. You may want to expound a tad bit.
As for my point relating to it, it still stands. If they can infiltrate your thoughts then how would you keep, oh, say a birth secret from them? If they're so good at what they do and have used Cockwit Lightning's wife against him before, why not hit her up with a handy dandy dose of nanomachines even if only to say they hold her life in their hands and to keep tabs on her. In other words it falls pray to the same thing many of the "SHADOW ORGANIZATION" plots do in that we've got these highly competent people/creatures overlooking something monumentally important. When setting them up as intelligent, or at least thorough, they shouldn't be making blatantly obvious mistakes.
Even that as an aside, the plot goes convoluted like nobodies business. A great example is Ocelot. By the end of this game, he SPOILERS! Is Ocelot, who is pretending to be liquid snake by using hypnosis, who is liquid snake (Snakes evil clone brother) because he grafted liquids arm onto his own stump after getting his arm cut off by a cyborg zombie ninja and possessed by it due to inheriting his fathers (the sorrow) ability to commune with spirits, who is pretending to be Ocelot, who is working for Solidus, who is working for GRUE, who is working for the FBI or CIA, who is actually working for Col. Galukavitch and a mercenary group, who is really working for the patriots, but in actuality is really working for Big Boss.......While I can understand that, I've yet to see a character with such a convoluted buildup. Well, I probably have, but still, that's one DOOZY of a backstory. Oh, and I think the ninja came from N.A.S.A as well. I'm throwing that odd point out there just because of how much more ridiculous it makes that. END OF SPOILERS
No...It's not subjective. I'm not going for "interpretive language" here. It's all cold, hard, and dictionary based. It's not in "THE summation" then. I got on a tangent because of just how little she manages to read/comprehend. Wall of text aside, my writing takes all of two to three minutes to read. You can even type while reading for a "point by point" argument. I set it up that way on purpose.
As for irrelivant text, aside from the ad hominem attacks none of it is really irrelevant. I'm addressing individual problems I see in others arguments while making counter points to their assertions. I can understand not caring about some of it, but I can't make a COUNTER point unless someone makes a point in the first place to work with hence my spacing. I start new paragraphs in response to each point/problem I see as I read.
To Jumplion, my statements are about as clear as humanly possible. I've even got them separated into neat paragraphs. They may lack numbers now, but it's essentially an itemized list sans the numbering. As for the game itself, I watch people play games. I don't always play them myself. Hence the lack of complaints about gameplay elements. I can only complain about what I've seen. Though for the record I did play MGS 3. Not just watched it, got into it. Aside from a few issues with some of the maneuvers, such as figuring out how to interrogate someone without the booklet, I don't really have much to complain about in the gameplay department...Well, at least not here anyway.
To Shatnershaman, as I said, I've only seen it. I can't go into the gameplay because I wasn't asking my buddy for a blow by blow when it came to controls.
For the record, just getting this out there, but I decided to watch a few peoples reviews on the game for shits and giggles. I believe it was either IGN or G4 that caught my attention, because while it gave it an astounding score, it also pointed out the same issues I and others have been talking about. I found that odd considering reviewers lately have been overly nice so a crack at the overly verbose dialogs and lengthy cutscenes came out of left field.
And to TeH_InFErNo, that's the point. sennz0r is saying how ridiculous it is to use a book as an example when referring to a game. They're inherently different mediums that follow different rules of presentation. Now, if Terra had only reference the story aspect of both, she'd still be off because MGS 4 hypes action. It even has it in the title. One can safely assume that when a game has something in it's title than one can expect it in the game, which includes the story aspect of the game...Though I can't argue with the action in some of the cutscenes.
all i'm gonna say is i've played it not cleared it yet am a fan of the series but nothin has come close to what the first one was there is alot of bull shit chat that is just way too mind fucking altho some i gets i guess you'd have to have played every one of the previous games to get what its all about and any believability in the story was erased when liquid snake lives on through his dead arm being grafted on to someone else yes the game does need an editor but a good one not someone who fails to see the point of stories in a game as alot o games suffer this fact anyhoo its an alright game and the control system once you get used to it is ok and any gamer should be able to work out what buttons to press and not to press after the first 10 20 mins of playin anyway. and as for believeability its a game yahtzee keeps on sayin realism is a bad turn for most games so what the hey i mean come on if it was real life snake would be dead by now so there we go as for the whole gay inuendo yep its there in spades but what game isn't lol its a sign of the times where games are becoming like films the small companies make amazing shitty coz of cash but awesome for some reason because they have to be unique and only once every now and again we'll get somat from the big production companies thats awesome or good and the rest will be cash ins on sequels or prequels so there we go my views if anyone cares lol
TBH, That was more directed to her than you.Tempdude0 said:
And I have an affinity towards making odd metaphors, it's another reason why I enjoy Yahtzee's reviews so much and most of the stuff he writes on his website. It's fun to take absurd scenes and try to make them fall in a way that makes sense. Just don't make a story that abuses our suspension of disbelief.
longest 2 sentences ever.Lzdarkangel said:
To Tempdude0: I really think you don't have anything to prove to anyone, and neither does TerraGPM or whatever the letter combination was. It doesn't matter if your paragraphs are neat and tidy, if i can't really understand what you two are arguing about then you both could easily run against Kojima for Emporor of the Universe.
I would argue against all of the paragraphs you made directing to someone, but i'm too tired after writing some of my soon to be "RAnt on Mainstream" rant that i'll post here on the Escapist sometime when i'm done with it.
Just both of you calm down, and let us relay on what both of you said. What exactly are you two arguing about specifically?
PS: Still feels funny when someone puts my username in their rant :3
That's because the gameplay is very good.shatnershaman said:
Let's suppose that you are a dumb-ass boss, you have surveillance cameras in the office, your employees hate you and they intend to get your ass fired. But, as you're above them - with surveillance cameras - they can't make any move without you knowing that and having the chance to counterattack. So your workers pretend to do something on camera, for you to think a counterattack, but actually your workers are planning something else that takes advantage of your predictable behavior. Then, all ZE PATRIOTS thing exaggeration becomes a very simple matter that doesn't break the ingame-logic.Tempdude0 said:
I don't get it, all that "My child died" stuff was for protecting the child from the Patriots. Raiden was being spied by the patriots because of his nanomachines, ergo, they had to deceive Raiden in order to deceive the patriots. At the time of MGS4's incident, I don't see why Raiden's child would be more important than liquid, and given the relation between Snake and this lighting emo, the patriots had no intention to stop him, because he would help Snake, and therefore help the patriots. Jeez, the amazing thing about this is that you talk about bad writing regarding something you haven't even played. Good for you.Tempdude0 said:
What mistakes?Tempdude0 said:
Now you want to deviate this debate by changing your argument, how smart you are! But you are contradicting yourself in this one. A conspirational plot has to be "convoluted". What kind of "shadow organization" would be if a reduced amount of information can be used to discover its existence? Now your arguments fall for themselves.Tempdude0 said:
I can't remember that statement in that particular cutscene. You may have to replay it, wait... You haven't played it at all.Tempdude0 said:
Half of it is invented. Please make valid arguments.Tempdude0 said:
You really can understand that? You're something special. Any normal person wouldn't mix every received piece of information making a totally wrong statement and understand it! You're some kind of... ehm... Genius?Tempdude0 said:
What?Tempdude0 said:
You're basing your speech in the dictionary, ergo you're being objective.Tempdude0 said:
Do I have to say that's the most idiotic argument I have read today?
I usually do that in quotes or at least, in separate paragraphs.Tempdude0 said:
Not only you make counter points, you add unnecessary examples to show your point, making it tedious and boring to read. Also, distracting from the true point of your argument not only to those who read you, but to yourself too.Tempdude0 said:
I hate to say this but.. The company is japenese and japan does have a taste for people with ridiculous hair, Big huge swords and guys that can't deal with women, and lengthy dialog. Sound familiar? Cyborg Ninjas instantly make the believability instantly impossible.. And why do the gekkos bleed? There machines and if they run on oil thats retarded because they don't blow up they short out.
And now put aside the cyborg ninjas and beautiful women who love showing themselves off.( Which isn't technically bad ) Now besides that the patriots are technically believable. They communicate through nanomachines they don't control people... They just provoke emotions and when the SOP is turned off its kinda like this. Imagine being shot and then getting morphine that lasts 5 minutes but then it wears off. And vamp being unkillable is atleast half-way believeable. But being shot in the head should instantly kill someone if it comes from a freaking sniper round..Minor cuts and stuff would be believeable but then again in this game theres fucking cyborg ninjas.
And there is a rifle that creates whirlwinds and a bandanna that gives infinite ammo. So turn off complete believability. Now even if it can't be believed fully doesn't mean it can't have real world rules.
And yeah i'm all over the place but heres a final run-down. This game is un-beliebeable but it has rules that are in some ways realistic but others like i dunno FUCKING CYBORG NINJAS. take away in my opinion this games title should be JTEA for japense tactical espionage action.
EDIT: I have no clue what i'm defending more likely attacking them for making a japense game which only japense people really understand.
And now put aside the cyborg ninjas and beautiful women who love showing themselves off.( Which isn't technically bad ) Now besides that the patriots are technically believable. They communicate through nanomachines they don't control people... They just provoke emotions and when the SOP is turned off its kinda like this. Imagine being shot and then getting morphine that lasts 5 minutes but then it wears off. And vamp being unkillable is atleast half-way believeable. But being shot in the head should instantly kill someone if it comes from a freaking sniper round..Minor cuts and stuff would be believeable but then again in this game theres fucking cyborg ninjas.
And there is a rifle that creates whirlwinds and a bandanna that gives infinite ammo. So turn off complete believability. Now even if it can't be believed fully doesn't mean it can't have real world rules.
And yeah i'm all over the place but heres a final run-down. This game is un-beliebeable but it has rules that are in some ways realistic but others like i dunno FUCKING CYBORG NINJAS. take away in my opinion this games title should be JTEA for japense tactical espionage action.
EDIT: I have no clue what i'm defending more likely attacking them for making a japense game which only japense people really understand.
Yea same thing happened in the SSBB review,Halo 3 review,Uncharted review,Mass Effect review,etc,etc,etcIndigo_Dingo said:
Indeed - I do wonder if it'll reach 1000 posts or if SSBB will remain the longest thread (I'm still amazed that Halo fans aren't the worst - seriously!). As for what all the fuss is about, I honestly have no idea - I like and enjoy both Mass Effect and GTA-IV, and even though I don't always agree with Yahtzee, nor do I go onto the forums to complain over and over about it all.shatnershaman said:
As for MSG4 (i.e. the topic itself) I have no idea at all given I don't have a PS3. However, as I've said before, if its like MSG2 (I think thats the one with the offshore platform) then I wouldn't like it, given its not a game but a movie that you occasionally have to push a few buttons to continue. Although that said, I find this is the case with the few Japanese game I have played (Two of the Final Fanatasy games, and Blue Dragon). That said, Mario and Link, despite being repeated whored out to do the same handiful of tricks over and over, remain fun and aren't simply over-long movies.
Now, I having played MSG4 (as mentioned by my 'lack of PS3' comment) but I imagine that if its like MSG2, or like the reviews I've read have said, then its probably overstuffed with cutscenes. However, that doesn't necessary make it a bad experience, just not necessarily a good game.
The problem there is that the boss isn't inside your head when you're doing these things. If he were, those plans would be revealed. There aren't many ways to hide what you're doing when someone can see what you're thinking. Even assuming they can only get a "feel" for what's going on, we have biological "tells" that would give most people away.
Don't ask me why the child was so important, but for some reason it was since his wife felt the need to hide it from the patriots. As for liquid, he was working for the patriots...Well, liquid Ocelot was...Wait, I'm getting confused here. Snake was railing against the patriots, so helping him would help them how?
People may attempt to deceive them and circumvent their setup. The patriots have a way into these peoples head. Why not just use it willy nilly on anyone even tangentially related to their operations, or anyone of importance for that matter?
I've said the plot goes convoluted for a while. Check a few posts back. You probably missed it with all that reading you weren't doing. Seeing as I've only said "convoluted" as opposed to "overly convoluted" I guess that particular misunderstanding goes down as my bad.
Alright then mister picky, SELF hypnosis than. Better? Sheesh.
Whatever, "cyborg ninja" then. I think I'm getting the different cyborg ninjas mixed up with each other.
Fine, in order. As a young man he worked as a GRUE Major (MGS 3) but at the end was revealed to be working for the KGB as ADAM, but under the DCI (that'd be the Director of the CIA) Later, he worked with Foxhound terrorists (The thing I referred to as a mercenary group. Splitting hairs, but still not quite right on my part.) and at the end he is revealed to be in league with Solidus, the other evil clone. Now sporting liquid snakes arm (after losing it to the cyborg ninja) he slowly begins to be taken over the personality of liquid snake prompting the change to Liquid Ocelot. A possible explanation being his parentage. Finally, it is revealed to all be in act as Ocelot is in actuality working for Big Boss (MGS 4) There, a blow by blow.
As for the ninja, again, I may be mixing up two different ones. Lets ignore that. However, there was a ninja from N.A.S.A. Look it up.
To the language comment, the problem one person had was that perhaps people involved in this couldn't come to an agreement on what certain words meant. Since I was working from the dictionary, there was no interpretation needed for my speech. I was in no way saying my word choice lent objectivity to my arguments. That's just silly. At least read what I'm writing please.
Fair enough, I'll try to move to quotes...After this post.
The examples may make it tedious, but aside from pointing out similar flaws in similar works, what would you have me do to prove my point? Would you like me to just spout off that I R RITE! without backing it up? References are there to provide further understanding and to lend credence to an argument, and as for "distracting myself" that's just as ludicrous. All the examples have made sense and been related to my arguments. Are you really reading I'm writing? I know you're using quotes, but you seem to be missing a few things here and there.
To Indigo_Dingo...Yeah, I was referring to the AIs as the patriots. I'll change that in subsequent posts. As for the rest, that was my point. They should have known about the baby by keeping a tab on her. Even if it didn't pan out, better to be safe than sorry when involved in a secret organization...Eh, I'll let it go as a bit of an oversight. I don't like it, but I'll admit that in that respect I may have been too picky and that perhaps there were valid reasons to not nanobot her up. So, I concede on that aspect. Good job on the first well reasoned argument I've seen thus far.
To Bulletinmybrain...What?...I'm just going to skip over that one.
To Doug, that's been my point all along. I don't care that people get enjoyment out of it. They can live it up and I'll be glad knowing they've got something that makes them happy. I just don't particularly like the fact that it's being touted as a great game. In fact, I think I like that line.
"It's not a bad experience, it's just not necessarily a good game."
Don't ask me why the child was so important, but for some reason it was since his wife felt the need to hide it from the patriots. As for liquid, he was working for the patriots...Well, liquid Ocelot was...Wait, I'm getting confused here. Snake was railing against the patriots, so helping him would help them how?
People may attempt to deceive them and circumvent their setup. The patriots have a way into these peoples head. Why not just use it willy nilly on anyone even tangentially related to their operations, or anyone of importance for that matter?
I've said the plot goes convoluted for a while. Check a few posts back. You probably missed it with all that reading you weren't doing. Seeing as I've only said "convoluted" as opposed to "overly convoluted" I guess that particular misunderstanding goes down as my bad.
Alright then mister picky, SELF hypnosis than. Better? Sheesh.
Whatever, "cyborg ninja" then. I think I'm getting the different cyborg ninjas mixed up with each other.
Fine, in order. As a young man he worked as a GRUE Major (MGS 3) but at the end was revealed to be working for the KGB as ADAM, but under the DCI (that'd be the Director of the CIA) Later, he worked with Foxhound terrorists (The thing I referred to as a mercenary group. Splitting hairs, but still not quite right on my part.) and at the end he is revealed to be in league with Solidus, the other evil clone. Now sporting liquid snakes arm (after losing it to the cyborg ninja) he slowly begins to be taken over the personality of liquid snake prompting the change to Liquid Ocelot. A possible explanation being his parentage. Finally, it is revealed to all be in act as Ocelot is in actuality working for Big Boss (MGS 4) There, a blow by blow.
As for the ninja, again, I may be mixing up two different ones. Lets ignore that. However, there was a ninja from N.A.S.A. Look it up.
To the language comment, the problem one person had was that perhaps people involved in this couldn't come to an agreement on what certain words meant. Since I was working from the dictionary, there was no interpretation needed for my speech. I was in no way saying my word choice lent objectivity to my arguments. That's just silly. At least read what I'm writing please.
Fair enough, I'll try to move to quotes...After this post.
The examples may make it tedious, but aside from pointing out similar flaws in similar works, what would you have me do to prove my point? Would you like me to just spout off that I R RITE! without backing it up? References are there to provide further understanding and to lend credence to an argument, and as for "distracting myself" that's just as ludicrous. All the examples have made sense and been related to my arguments. Are you really reading I'm writing? I know you're using quotes, but you seem to be missing a few things here and there.
To Indigo_Dingo...Yeah, I was referring to the AIs as the patriots. I'll change that in subsequent posts. As for the rest, that was my point. They should have known about the baby by keeping a tab on her. Even if it didn't pan out, better to be safe than sorry when involved in a secret organization...Eh, I'll let it go as a bit of an oversight. I don't like it, but I'll admit that in that respect I may have been too picky and that perhaps there were valid reasons to not nanobot her up. So, I concede on that aspect. Good job on the first well reasoned argument I've seen thus far.
To Bulletinmybrain...What?...I'm just going to skip over that one.
To Doug, that's been my point all along. I don't care that people get enjoyment out of it. They can live it up and I'll be glad knowing they've got something that makes them happy. I just don't particularly like the fact that it's being touted as a great game. In fact, I think I like that line.
"It's not a bad experience, it's just not necessarily a good game."