A Group of 270 Scientists, Doctors, etc. Submit Open Letter to Spotify Regarding Joe Rogan (JRE)

MrCalavera

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Mandates are really funny things. Apparently when your country is threatening to kick you out of power, you just remove all the mandates.


I find it funny that throughout this pandemic we've seen countless people in power, the people demanding regulations of their people, completely ignoring their own rules and claims. The virus is so dangerous and people need to be so careful of it, except when politicial leaders decide it's not such a big deal any more. The UK doesn't even require masks anymore. No vaccine cards. No limitations.
Welcome to politics. Or did you think global pandemic will be treated any different than global climate emergency, or global tax evasion?
 

Trunkage

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umm....I don't spread anything. I don't talk about Rogan or any other podcast in my day to day life, or even on here. So I don't know why the fuck you are acusing me?
Wait, wait, wait... you think you DIDN'T spread mistrust of leaders and scientists?

You did that on this page. Edit: In hindsight I should have checked there wasn't another page and now this points to the wrong page

I think your mistaking spreading lies about Covid for mistrust of the groups coordinating the Covid response
 

Trunkage

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And...? That tells us nothing.

It's a nurse caught on camera doing some stupid dance moves. It doesn't mean she isn't stressed or overworked, or that there isn't a problem in the hospital and a huge number of other hospital staff aren't stressed and overworked.

Is it her way of coping? A little time out? Is she in a good mood at that moment despite everything? Who the hell knows? But it is surely the most incredibly absurd fallacy to think that because things are bad, everyone has to be scurrying around looking harassed and glum all the time. With simple introspection, we'd remember incidents in our lives where we've seen someone in difficult circumstances, even ourselves, crack a joke, play the fool, and that there are periods of lightness, relief as well. If we're going to pillory anyone who doesn't look appropriately miserable and refuse to have fun in a bad patch, we can suck up the extra suicides that will accompany it.
But she was having fun. There is no possible way for someone to have fun AND be stressed. There is no way you could be overworked and have fun. Just ask Musk. He works himself a lot and never has fun with it
 
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CriticalGaming

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But she was having fun. There is no possible way for someone to have fun AND be stressed.
The reason why it's an issue is that it goes against the narative that the media wants to spin. Nurses are supposedly stressed to the breaking point, to the point where they are quitting the job due to the stress. People under that level of stress are not dancing at the place giving them the stress, nor would they have the supposed time to dance across the hallway about it.

Nevermind the fact that many hospitals have LAID off nurses because of cancelled proceedures. Why would they lay off nurses if the are so shorthanded that the existing nurses have to work themselves to the bone? Nurses are not specialized the same way doctors are typically. There isn't nurses who can only exclusively handle feet like a podatrist. And even if it's basic nursing, surely they can provide SOME relief to the core nurses so that they can have a little bit of slack. The narative and the reality do not line up.

And that is the bottom line of my problem with the whole situation. The narrative has been a bunch of bullshit. And to me it has been obviously bullshit, so why are people surprised at the distrust. Especially when our leaders are so blantantly disregarding their own "seriousness" of everything. If they had taken covid seriously, then so would most everyone else and we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.
 

Silvanus

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The reason why it's an issue is that it goes against the narative that the media wants to spin. Nurses are supposedly stressed to the breaking point, to the point where they are quitting the job due to the stress. People under that level of stress are not dancing at the place giving them the stress, nor would they have the supposed time to dance across the hallway about it.
Oh fucking please. This is garbage. I've been stressed out of my goddamn mind but still found a few moments of levity. It's a coping mechanism half the time.

If you think being stressed to breaking point as a profession means that every member of that profession must be moping and crying 100% of the time, you're being absolutely ridiculous.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Oh fucking please. This is garbage. I've been stressed out of my goddamn mind but still found a few moments of levity. It's a coping mechanism half the time.

If you think being stressed to breaking point as a profession means that every member of that profession must be moping and crying 100% of the time, you're being absolutely ridiculous.
Or a corporate lawyer trying to fuck over someone trying to get stress leave.
 
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Kwak

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The reason why it's an issue is that it goes against the narative that the media wants to spin. Nurses are supposedly stressed to the breaking point, to the point where they are quitting the job due to the stress. People under that level of stress are not dancing at the place giving them the stress, nor would they have the supposed time to dance across the hallway about it.
You do realise that 'the media' didn't declare the emergency don't you - the hospitals did, the media is just reporting it.
Your opinion on the correct behaviour of people under stress is garbage.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Boo-fucking-hoo!

Dude, I live with someone who's anti-vax, and not only does me being vaccinated twice, suffering zero side-effects, the people in my family being vaccinated twice, suffering zero side-effects - one of whom was 7 months pregnant - not convince them, neither does bringing up vaccinations for other freaking diseases. And I'm still living with their daily bullshit.

Fuck off with the poor wittle anti-vaxers feelings getting hurt. We did our job. We made it clear in the months following the release of the vaccine how beneficial it is. But then it became political because Trump didn't like Fauci. Then it became authoritarian because they were going to "force" the vaccine on people. All those screaming lunatics at schoolboards, threatening medical personnel? That didn't happen because there wasn't enough information around. It happened because heaps of misinformation was platformed, by scumbags like Joe Rogan.
There's some anti-vax people where it's just some equivalent of an extreme religious belief that can't be convinced no matter what, which might be your roommate (I don't know them obviously). But for most people that haven't gotten vaccinated, they do have legit concerns and reasons and really just need legit education (which is not being provided by the media or CDC) and to be treated like a human being. How beneficial the vaccine was so overhyped though and just looking at it from some basic logic it doesn't make sense to a lot of people because now the messaging is that if you're vaxxed, you have to wear even better masks than before. If the vax is so good, why do I have to wear even better masks or N95 masks (my mom literally asked me about wearing those and I'm like you ain't going to wear those properly anyway)? The messaging is complete bullshit with bigger holes of logic than a Hollywood blockbuster. The director of the CDC literally said in November masks are up to 80% effective is preventing spread (it's at best like 5-10% and that's being optimistic), which is complete fucking bullshit. The misinformation is all around whether fringe doctors or the director of the CDC. Also, when did Trump ever bad mouth the vaccine? He called it the Trump vaccine for crying out loud.

Why does everyone need to get vaxxed when the science says they don't? People that had covid already, every single peer-reviewed paper says natural immunity is stronger (the CDC just released a paper saying that). Why do young people need 2 doses when the 2nd dose is the far more likely dose to trigger myocarditis? Why can't they just get one dose? Are you gonna say a healthy say 12-year-old with 1 dose is too dangerous to go to school or eat at a restaurant? German data says not a single healthy kid died from covid and only like 2 or 3 actually went to the ICU. What Joe Rogan said about healthy young people possibly not needing to get the vaccine (which is all I recall him saying about people not needing to get vaxxed) is backed up by data to some degree. The younger you are, the less you spread it as well. How much is the vaccine even helping the community by a kid getting vaxxed? I'm guessing it's very minimal. Kids getting the flu shot would definitely help out the community more than the covid shot because they spread the flu like wildfire while they don't really spread covid and the vaccine doesn't really help with that much anyway. If you ain't gonna force the flu shot on kids, why force the covid shot? Because if you're just going by objective numbers and risk, the shot that you should force first is the flu shot. Some schools are now forcing boosters on students when the literal top dog in the US for vaccination, Paul Offit, told his son not to get the booster.


We've tried encouraging, discussing, negotiating, bribing, and appealing to decency and self-preservation. None of those have worked for a select set of holdouts.
The carrot has failed for some. Now comes the time for the stick. Shame is a powerful motivator.
It's not, just look at HIV. The media and CDC are not properly educating people and their messaging is so bad.

During which time frame are you talking about? Once we knew what caused AIDS (the HIV virus), how it was spread and activities that were at risk, after years of devoting few resources to the issue?
We learned about not using shame-based messaging. [Yet we’re still saying] “Look at all these young people on the beach, how awful that they want to kill the elderly.” [From HIV] we learned a lot about fear-based messaging—that it didn’t work. “You’re gonna die if you do this.” No! “Let me tell you how to keep yourself safe.” There were ways to say: “I am so sorry you miss your family so much. Let me tell you some ways to stay safe and still have some family time.” We have not put that all together. Instead, the message was, “Stay at home.” I think it’s because we’re hoping that people will be scared to death. It works for some people, but it sure has led to a lot of anxiety and depression, where we could have been more nuanced.

Nope, a large number of them seem to not have outgrown oppositional defiant disorder.
It should be made clear to anyone refusing the vaccine at this point what the consequences will be if they get COVID and die: they will be ridiculed from beyond the grave, and if they are remembered, it will be as an idiot. If admitting they were wrong, duped by conmen and shysters, and reversing their opinion is too painful to them that they would rather risk dying, that's their decision. Let their deaths be on their own heads.
Nope, most of them are just confused about the messaging which has been extremely poor. Those that are concerned about side effects from the vaccine, which are real, have not been told which vaccine is best for them. The messaging is basically "get vaxxed, you're an idiot for getting not getting vaxxed" vs if you're a young guy, get the J&J for least side effects or get one of the mRNAs if you're a young gal. Point me to just one officially messaged article or video saying that simple basic education. Where's some official messaging about those opposed to the new mRNA tech saying "well, the J&J vax isn't mRNA so there's an option for you"? How many people know the J&J vax isn't mRNA? I'd be surprised if it was more than 10%.

The willfully unvaccinated are far more likely to end up in the hospital with COVID complications. This is putting a strain on the medical system and harming people who need routine care. In a more fair world, we wouldn't be postponing surgeries for early stages of cancer to make room for the unvaccinated in hospitals.
The unvaccinated that already had covid aren't far more likely to end up in the hospital and are not putting a strain on the medical system. We're not postponing cancer surgeries for covid patients. Cancer screenings weren't postponed because those doctors and nurses had to treat covid patients, they were deemed "nonessential" and people were too scared of covid to get said screenings because of media fear mongering. "Stay home unless absolutely necessary!!!" One of my aunts was literally wiping down food from the grocery store and also wiping down the car every time she went somewhere, the fear mongering is real.


Vaccination has successfully eradicated diseases in the past. Its primary obstacles are human psychology and politics, not sheer impossibility.
You were the one arguing with me like a year ago that viruses are very very very rarely eradicated and only something like smallpox counts as being eradicated and measles does not.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Oh, screw that.

Most of the anti-vaxxers were never going to be brought round: paranoid about the government, Big Pharma, or they're die-hard anti-vax from long back (e.g. as CM156 notes regarding Andrew Wakefield) and no amount of optimism or nice talking was ever going work.

It would be a lot easier to build trust if people weren't trying to convince everyone that public health leaders are mass murderers, e.g.:
Google says 64% of Americans are vaxxed. You can probably easily reach 90% of the unvaccinated with proper messaging, education, and compassion. Sure there's maybe 10% that can't be convinced no matter what. Just because the extreme gets the biggest voice doesn't mean they make up a majority. Those that believe microchips are in the vaccines are such a small portion of the unvaccinated group. How much of the population do you think actually believes the autism thing from Andrew Wakefield? It's probably not even 5%.

How many young healthy people with no comorbidities have died from covid? Probably not even 100. How many people died in that initial wave in NYC?
1642968687943.png

So what message "young healthy people may not need to get the vaccine" or "everything is fine, continue on like normal [for NYC Feb 29th 2020]" killed more people?
It's obviously Fauci's messaging, not Rogan's.


That ship has sailed. We have tried appeasement and education for more than a year, those who could have been convinced have been. The problem is that alternative fact spreaders have gotten a hold on a lot of people and convinced them that "mainstream" science is just a big fat lie paid by big pharma. So nothing that comes out of pro vaccine people will convince them. No one will be convinced by people they believe to be liars and corrupted. I know anti vaxxers and I know how it works: scientists and doctors who push vaccines? Liars bought by or manipulated by big pharma. The few scientists and doctors who are anti vax? Truth spreading enlightened spirits.

And the worst part is that I know of anti vaxxers who are proud of how they are "enlightening" people who are now becoming sceptic because anti vaxxers abused their moments of doubt. A moment of doubt that sometimes occur due to an infection which lead to mild to moderate symptoms despite the fact these people are old and had comorbidities (and thus likely to have much more severe symptoms had they not been vaccinated).

So yes... Fuck them.
I keep asking for an article pointing out some basic education and I've yet to get someone providing said article. Where is an article saying J&J is safest for young men and mRNA is safest for young women? Where is the article telling those not convinced about mRNA tech to get the J&J vax because it's not mRNA? This is why people don't believe public messaging because they don't just tell them the truth. They want to suppress any info about vaccine side effects because that is deemed as hindering people getting vaccinated when if they were just straight with people, they wouldn't go down the fringe rabbit hole and find those very poorly interpreting VAERS numbers. The official messaging has caused more anti-vaxxers than actual anti-vaxxers could've ever turned themselves.


Possibly, though vaccination has also prevented the spread of diseases even more contagious.

But even so, the Omicron variant was only able to develop because the coronavirus was around for over a year already, able to mutate and adapt as we failed to get a handle on it.



Indeed. But there is nothing utterly unique to Covid-19 which makes it impossible to deal with.
Viruses are DIFFERENT. There was like no way we would've been able to get a "handle" on covid.

We've turned covid into a cold, isn't that enough?


Caused in some small part by anti-vaxxers, but caused in large part by terrible public health policies around the world, usually putting profit above human life.

"It is what it is" because governments and complacent voters have made it like that. A lot of death was avoidable.
What variant originated in developing countries with access to vaccines on like every street corner?

Stopping covid would've caused death as well. China killed people to get to where they are, which is supposedly "covid zero" if you believe them.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Turning them away? no, that's immoral and doctors shouldn't be allowed to do that.
Putting them on low priority if the hospital is overloaded? Yes, why should people who couldn't be arsed getting a free vaccine cause others not getting proper care.
We're talking in the context of them coming for a severe case of Covid, right?
Why shouldn't hospitals put people who eat/drink a pound of sugar a day on low priority then? They can't be arsed to drink water instead of pop. Sugar consumption causes more hospitalizations than covid and even the covid hospitalizations are caused by sugar as outside of age, obesity and diabetes are the highest contributing risks factors for covid.
 

MrCalavera

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Why shouldn't hospitals put people who eat/drink a pound of sugar a day on low priority then? They can't be arsed to drink water instead of pop. Sugar consumption causes more hospitalizations than covid and even the covid hospitalizations are caused by sugar as outside of age, obesity and diabetes are the highest contributing risks factors for covid.
Fat people don't infect other people with fatness.
Google says 64% of Americans are vaxxed. You can probably easily reach 90% of the unvaccinated with proper messaging, education, and compassion. Sure there's maybe 10% that can't be convinced no matter what. Just because the extreme gets the biggest voice doesn't mean they make up a majority. Those that believe microchips are in the vaccines are such a small portion of the unvaccinated group. How much of the population do you think actually believes the autism thing from Andrew Wakefield? It's probably not even 5%.
I'd like to see the math on that.
 
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MrCalavera

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Then why do parents that are obese have their kids becoming obese far more often than parents that aren't obese? Parents feed kids food you know.
Not nearly the same thing, but i appreciate rhetorical contortionism.
 

Silvanus

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You were the one arguing with me like a year ago that viruses are very very very rarely eradicated and only something like smallpox counts as being eradicated and measles does not.
Yeah, only two diseases have been effectively eradicated, though a large number more have been rendered non-issues in a lot of countries.

What's your point?
 
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Silvanus

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Viruses are DIFFERENT. There was like no way we would've been able to get a "handle" on covid.
Viruses are different, but that is a non-statement. I asked for the material differences that make Covid so uniquely impossible to handle, and was told that no other viruses are as contagious/ spread before they're symptomatic... and then I provided a laundry list of other viruses which ARE just as contagious (or more so), and which are symptomatic before they're symptomatic.

So what differences are you talking about?

We've turned covid into a cold, isn't that enough?
"It's only killing 4 - 10,000 people per day! Isn't that few enough!?"

No, oddly enough.
 
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Agema

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You can probably easily reach 90% of the unvaccinated with proper messaging, education, and compassion.
Yes, and who is it on this forum ruining that proper messaging telling everyone they don't need to get vaccinated, if not you?

It's obviously Fauci's messaging, not Rogan's.
Firstly, Fauci did not have the advantage all the knowledge and that Joe Rogan did, nor the hindsight you did. Secondly, it's also deeply hypocritical coming from you who resists all lockdowns, masks, etc. Thirdly, again, you are trying to trash the reputations of public health experts trying to encourage vaccination and talking up kooks supporting snake oil: it's hardly proper messaging and education, is it?

Your entire view over this is whirl of incoherent, self-unaware complaints and criticisms.
 
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