Blizzard: Valve Shouldn't Trademark DotA

[RYjet911]

So, uh, you heard of Team Fortress?

That pokey little Quake mod from way back?

Y'know what people weren't bitching about back then?

Valve taking the rights to the game, employing the original developers and making it.

And then making that ever-popular sequel in 2007.

In this case it's only one of the original developers, but still.


This is fanboyism at its finest, on both sides.

Blizzard are greedy bastards that will milk every penny out of you they can get their grubby hands on. Considering Activision-Blizzard implies Bobby Kotick has power there, screw ups will be made.

And Valve have no experience in that kind of game, except partially through original TF2 designs. There is no automatic "They will make a great game" when it comes to Valve.

No matter who you're siding with, there's no chance the game will come out as announced. Valve Time is standard, and Blizzard have a habit of putting off games to focus attention on WoW. No, fanboys, Starcraft 2 wasn't in development for 12 years because they were perfecting it. They just realised they could no longer make money on the supposedly still freely updated Starcraft 1, which by the way I found little to support constant, game-changing updates like Valve have a history of doing.

In my opinion, Valve is the better option. For a start, it'll be interesting to see what they can make of DotA, a game I only know about thanks to the Basshunter song. And secondly, I've never been a fan of Blizzard's work. Diablo can go suck it, Starcraft was meh, and Warcraft was alright. WoW can eat a dick for all I care, although its the only example of constant, consistent and game-changing updates from Blizzard. The rest are just minor bug fixes.

It just seems really stupid to ***** about in my opinion. Blizzard fanboys don't want another company to own the rights to a game they enjoy, Valve fanboys do, Blizzard wants to make it themselves now because they could get mad amounts of money, Valve want to try doing something other than an FPS and internet trolls want to make people argue it out over really pointless, largely half-truth info, saying that one company cares more than another, one company will update better etc.

It's all pointless unless we allow Valve to go ahead and see what they can do with it. My favoured scenario is that all this bubbles down a little, Valve make a superb RTS game and people shut up about it.

 

[Delusibeta]

Considering they've released two or three games since Part 2 and have released one more and haven't said a peep about Episode 3 whatsoever I think it's well on its way to entering DNF territory.

Regardless DNF is a sequel, it's not an episode to a game that is already 2/3rds released. The whole point of episodic content is to release smaller parts to a game at more regular intervals. Given the interval between Episode 2 and the unreleased Episode 3, they've already screwed up big time.

To this argument, I'm going to point out that a) I'm fairly confident that Episode 3 has been abandoned in favour of a full-fat Half Life 3. Certainly, the rumours a year or so ago pointed towards a fully fledged sequel and not an "episode", and b) it's only been three years, Half Life 2 took twice that, no reason for Half Life 3 to be any different.

 

[Delusibeta]

Excuse the double post, but I saw this comment on Rock Paper Shotgun's comments thread [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/10/25/blizzard-square-off-with-valve-over-dota/#comment-538459] about this, and thought that it's very relevent.

There?s a key distinction to be made here. Valve copyrighted DOTA, not DotA. As in, the game being developed by them is literally called DOTA, it?s not an acronym. Nobody?s being prevented from creating Defence of the Ancients 2 and nobody will be stopped from calling it DotA, and in fact, I believe (Riot Games?) copyrighted that term.

Valve are creating a game in that genre, and using key modders from it to do so. The name has obvious recognition for that genre, but this is going to be a full product release, not a mod. I don?t see how Valve are ?stealing? things here. It?s like saying they never should have made Team Fortress Classic or Team Fortress 2. ?Team Fortress 1 was a Quake community game, how dare they!?. Well yeah, but they hired the modders from that community, and eventually released TFC and TF2.

Most crucially, the existence of an officially Valve licensed franchise called Team Fortress has not prevented people from continuing to mod and create TF variants across other games. The Quake series variants (or as some would have it, the ORIGINAL community (?how dare they!? etc. etc.)). The UT series got its own variant of Team Fortress as well, as did AvP2, and heck, angry fanboys even made Fortress Forever for the Source engine, a mod that was designed to appeal to players of TFC. Amazingly, even the Star Trek: Voyager FPS got a version of Team Fortress. Suffice it to say, Valve may own Team Fortress now, but they don?t own the idea of Fortress style games. They never have, and probably never can really.

If Blizzard are worried about this, it?s not like they can?t easily compete, and it?s kind of hard to say they?re not when DotA?s coming to Starcraft 2, and will likely be obscenely popular.

The question of which one becomes the ?official? version (if you can call it that given DotA?s history) is just a question of which one becomes most popular with the community. And you know what? I?m going to be bluntly honest here and say I don?t think it?s going to be the Valve version. But that?s a separate issue. People seem to be getting angry over the similarity of the name, as if it?ll somehow dilute the other communities, but that?s never going to happen. Valve?s DOTA sinks or swims on its own, same as with the other MOBA?s (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, which is the term that people have coined for this genre of games). If someone makes Defence of the Ancients 2 and it flops, or succeeds, it won?t have been because of Valve. Just like if Team Fortress 2 was crap, it doesn?t matter about its name, people wouldn?t have played it, they?d just play the other Fortress variants.

 

[TwilightSnail]

Ok exort, I guess I'll rip apart another one of your posts.

"I know that... I even remember when Icefrog' old Invoker completely made the game unplayable"

Invoker was left over from the age of Guinsoo, explaining its horribly unplayable balance. Incredible how you comment on one version but you can't mention the other 50 that you have played being any sort of "playable"

"I said it is ok for him to have DotA: Allstar but not DotA. (I said that in two other posts)
Because DotA is now a genre, people refer LoL and HoN as DotA-like maps.
I know Eul just disappear and lot of Fan map comes out Like DotA: outland and DotA: Revenge. Among them DotA: Allstar was the best."

DotA: Allstars was the only DotA that became real, how can you not see that? What other DotA versions where around today? Can you tell me this? Ice created DotA in its current incarnation, LoL and HoN are just copycat versions, taking our spells and abilities (or whole heroes) adding them in with things that can't be done on the wc3 engine to make a profit. Now that DotA 2 is rising, they are starting to freak out.

"Look Im not saying Icefrog is bad or anything I have been play his version of DotA: allstar since 6.00 (ok, with the exception of 6.00 which invoker was broken)
I'm saying "He has done a lot for DotA, but not enough to take the name of the genre it self."
Just like if Westwood or Blizzard trademark RTS. They both done a lot but they don't own the genre."

You are just wrong, nothing but wrong. There was one and only one DotA game, it was fostered and crafted with Icefrog leading it, but money grabbing theives like Pendragon and Guinsoo creared LoL to score some cash. Guinsoo was hired only because he worked on DotA for a breif time, when it wasn't even popular. In advertising they pretend he was the only one who worked on DotA, when in reality he worked on it for the least amount of time, and did the worst job.

Eul himself says in a post himself:

That's odd, I'm rather proud of what it has become.

I don't know if any of you are really being fair to IceFrog. I definitely appreciate the loyalty, but the fact of the matter is that my decision was my decision. No one can really say for sure what the fate of the community would've been had I not made that decision, but what we can say is that it has grown into something that many, many people love today, and for that I'll always be grateful, no matter the path it has taken.

It seems that during the Guinsoo era, that was somewhat of an attempt to erase me, because it seems that those who are in defense of those guys often cite him as the creator, at least in online forum discussions. It's also what's listed on the box of League of Legends.

A better question might be what the hell Blizzard was doing this whole time. Every Valve game I've played has been great, so I don't expect this one to be any different.

http://www.thewarcenter.net/forum/warcraft-iii/valve's-dota-2/msg102689/#msg102689

"Edit: I guess part of me felt cheated after reading Pendragon's post on dota-allstars.com and have been too hard on icefrog. But I clearly remember when S2 announce HoN Icefrog said something along the line of "competition is good" like he have nothing to do with it, and when IceFrog left dota-allstar.com I truely thought it was because he doesn't want to use DotA as a tool for money, after all he provide Soo many patch for free. But in the end I felt betrayed."

Stop believing the lies that are smeared in front of you and wake up. It's all just a marketing ploy. Everything from Pendragons Letter, http://www.dota-allstars.com/index.html to the Truth about Icefrog is a shitty scam to go at all costs stop people from playing DotA 2. Do not feel betrayed. Pendragon is more frightented than a 5 year old in a lightning storm tied to a metal post. Icefrog has always chosen the correct step in the continuation of DotA, and moving to valve is another one.

"it isn't just me think that way, a lot of fans I know also did (Pendragon's post also stated to this). Farthermore, I remember the First Q&A of him had a question asking him about if he profit from ADs in other DotA fan site, of course he said no. But think for a second, if he was trying to profit from DotA why he choose this question? To me it felt he was trying to create that image of him."

Icefrog is not seeking to exploit DotA as a cash crop like LoL and HoN (blizzard to an extent because you need to pay to get starcraft 2, and the other 2 expansions, 180 dollars over a million times, yeah thats not a lot of money I guess) If DotA costs any amount of money at all, then it will be very inexpensive and affordable. DotA is for the community not for Profit.

"but still I think he can have DotA: allstar but not DotA. (I post this more that once or twice.)"

Icefrog created everything that is DotA, all else is just strewn from it. I'm done arguing with you because if you don't agree here then there is no way to change your strewn mind, but I hope you will listen to reason and trust that DotA is in the best hands with Icefrog and consequently Valve. Stop being upset/feeling betrayed, and get ready to play the best game ever made in 2011!

 

[Zing]

Gotta take Blizzard's side on this one. If Valve wanted to make their own DotA like game similar to DotA/LoL/HoN then that is great, but saying it's a sequel to DotA isn't fair when in essence it came from WCIII.

 

[Exort]

@TwilightSnail
First I remember it is rumored that Guinsoo was to create LoL, it isn't that guinsoo came back because DotA become more successful, and then LoL doesn't have anything same with DotA, no matter spell or items or leveling system or anything really.
Then I didn't heard Giunsoo or S2 trying to stop Valve? but I'm not following them closely now.
I do know Pendragon is try to stop Valve.
By the way, Blizzard already release more one than DotA free map before, they didn't just came in after Valve trademark, and starting to say that.

Then "If DotA costs any amount of money at all, then it will be very inexpensive and affordable. DotA is for the community not for Profit."

Oh I remmeber when Giunsoo told us in interveiw it is free to play and stuff, and needs about three month of farming to get most thing, and what did it end up to be?

Now in the hands of Valve? Those guys add a Micro-transaction to a fully paid game! (Team Fortress 2)
Also the Mann Co store didn't just sell cosmetic changes, they sell gameplay effecting items.

I really doubt Dota is not for profit, jugding from what we know from the game, this is not alien swarm, this is a full retail game.

You know I really hope I'm wrong.

"Stop believing the lies that are smeared in front of you and wake up."
Same can be apply to IceFrog and Valve, how are you so certain it must the Pendragon and others? Because IceFrog must be the good guys?

 

[Delusibeta]

"Stop believing the lies that are smeared in front of you and wake up."
Same can be apply to IceFrog and Valve, how are you so certain it must the Pendragon and others? Because IceFrog must be the good guys?

Mate, if you believe *that* anonymous blog post, then I'm not taking part in this discussion.

 

[TwilightSnail]

Half your post I cant even read, it is so plagued with grammatical errors its atrocious. Did you even read the post I showed you from Eul? The original creator of dota? LoL hired guinsoo so they could pretend that they had the original creator of the entire game of Dota, thats how they sell it in adds on every website, and on facebook and all that other stuff. You keep bringing irrelevant things into the argument Pendragon and Guinsoo are working TOGETHER, they are a TEAM working for LEAGUE OF LEGENDS. The entire concept of LoL is the same as DotA, they just did everything differently, how can the wool be pulled over your eyes so easily? It's not a bad game, but they are making money off of it, like the planned to. Isn't it weird how Guinsoo just came out of the woodwork as soon as they wanted to make LoL? Thats because Riot Games was trash without the "Creators of DotA" tag on it, which is widely misinterpreted.

And how am I certain? This is easy. Icefrog has never done anything to hurt the DotA community, and Valve has always made great games and is loved by everyone. Pendragon took down Dota-Allstars, a once thriving website which was all about dota, turned it into a League of Legends cesspool and then shut it down, promising to archive it and put it back up in a "week or so" but did that ever happen? No. A lot of hardcore DotA fans spend a lot of time on that website, and they can view none of it now. When you google DotA the first thing you get is a direct link to the League of Legends website at the end of Pendragons letter. Can you say "ITS A TRAP". If that isn't a marketing ploy then I don't know what is. Icefrog is the good guy.

"Oh I remmeber when Giunsoo told us in interveiw it is free to play and stuff, and needs about three month of farming to get most thing, and what did it end up to be?"

See this? Right here? This is why LoL Guinsoo and Pen are lying deceitful and evil. You just said it yourself.

 

[Crasha]

Now in the hands of Valve? Those guys add a Micro-transaction to a fully paid game! (Team Fortress 2)
Also the Mann Co store didn't just sell cosmetic changes, they sell gameplay effecting items.

If / when you purchased TF2, or at least in my case, I bought it right when the game was released. The game was barren compared to the state it's in today. In those couple of years they've added new maps, new modes, new gear for everyone. And all of this, without asking for money. Keep in mind that all of this is stuff that most other games would fill in later as paid DLC. Now, you still have the nerve to whine about them adding the Mann Co store, which is in fact also helping players (The creators of the things in there were paid something like 200.000 dollars all in all). Valve is only keeping a small ammount of the earnings for themselves, to keep the game updated and fresh for the community

Now please stop posting here, no one agrees with you.

 

[wiredk]

Now in the hands of Valve? Those guys add a Micro-transaction to a fully paid game! (Team Fortress 2)
Also the Mann Co store didn't just sell cosmetic changes, they sell gameplay effecting items.

If / when you purchased TF2, or at least in my case, I bought it right when the game was released. The game was barren compared to the state it's in today. In those couple of years they've added new maps, new modes, new gear for everyone. And all of this, without asking for money. Keep in mind that all of this is stuff that most other games would fill in later as paid DLC. Now, you still have the nerve to whine about them adding the Mann Co store, which is in fact also helping players (The creators of the things in there were paid something like 200.000 dollars all in all). Valve is only keeping a small ammount of the earnings for themselves, to keep the game updated and fresh for the community

Now please stop posting here, no one agrees with you.

Too add insult to injury for the people that don't know what they are talking about,
The Mann Co shop only sells items that you can get through the random drops: That is, if you're tired of waiting for their silly drop system(I hate it myself, but the game is still playable) you can buy entire sets of gear for rather cheap.

FURTHER MORE: They pay MONEY to community gear designers. Yes, you can have a chance to have gear YOU'VE modeled and designed be put up on the shop and get money from it. Thats what most of the gear in the mannco site is from.

Sounds good to me.

this, versus items that Blizzard just tosses out on their store that you can't get normally and often don't do a thing. 25 bucks for a pet? Nothanks.

 

[bpm195]

I'm confused, was the WC3 version of DOTA created by the community at large or the a few (maybe even one) developers within the community. There is an important difference.

For example Alien Swarm was created by a development team within the Unreal Tournament 2004 community, but the Community Bonus Packs were built by independent contributors within the community.

Another example: Counter-Strike was developed by a couple guys in the Half Life community and although it was a popular as hell within the community, but that doesn't mean the community owns it.

I couldn't care less about WC3 if I tried, so I maybe a bit misinformed. However I thought DOTA was the sweat of IceFrog's brow and though he lets the community play it, it belongs to him. Now that he's moved on to valve, its perfectly reasonable that he either lets them have the IP and they in turn make moves to protect it, or that he keeps the IP and Valve still wants to protect it.

If they don't get the trademark then the Blizzard could release DOTA Too so logically Valve would want to prevent that.

 

[Spectre4802]

Personally: no, they shouldn't trademark it.

The name and game style "DotA" should belong to the- hell, any community that wants to make a game like DotA. Valve makes good games, yes, but at the same time, it's a huge dickmove on their part to trademark something the community has had for god knows how long.

Don't do it is what I say. Find another way to keep the DotA title.

 

[teisjm]

Well, couldn't valve just give it another name?

I mean, Heroes of Newerth made remake of Dota and gave it a new name, and i don't think you can find many DotA players who at least doesn't know about HoN, if they haven't tried it (by default they know, cause it's more or less the same game) I can't imagine how valve wouldn't be able to make themselves noticed liek that.

I think it'll be a bit weird though, to have both DotA, Hon and Dota2 around when they're all the same game. same hereos and items +/- some, same map, identical gameplay/objectives etc.

 

[subject_87]

Really though, Valve aren't the sort of copyright whores who will sue everyone who modifies it at all.

 

[MaxFF7]

A trademark is a word, name, symbol, or device or any combination thereof adopted and used by a seller to identify his goods and distinguish them from those sold by another. People seem to be afraid that Valve will shut down everyone who makes a DoTA mod, but if they are free, and not being sold they aren't infringing on the trademark. Trademarks only serve to distinguish the origin of commercial products and services and has nothing at all to do with free stuff.

 

[Digitaldreamer7]

If Valve doesn't Blizzard will. I would let Valve handle DoTA before Blizzard any day. Valve will make free stuff for it, Blizzard would make you pay for everything. Valve just has a better community. Maybe it's not the right thing to do if you concentrate on the moment. But it's the best thing and future will show that Valve is right to do this.

Really?? This will end up as something you have to buy that has nothing but VAC written all over it. It has nothing to do with any valve game. If ANYTHING I'd hope blizzard would trademark and copyright it, then allow the community to use the name as long as there is no profit made form it.

Just because blizzard now has activision in front of it, doesn't make it a bad company, blizzard has done nothing but listen to and support it's community. I promise you that if valve gets a hold of that name dota will change from what the community has created to something that ruins it.

Oh and I expect that episode 3 is going to end up like Duke Nukem... 10+ years down the line

 

[Madshire]

What this boils down to is that Valve is trade marking an already existing game. They think that they should get money for their effort when all the other mod developers shouldn't. And seriously guys, if Blizzard wanted to trademark DotA THEY ALREADY FUCKING WOULD OF! Blizzard have had a lot of time to Trademark it, but they didn't because they think it belongs to the community. And if you bring up the spectral steed when the mann. co store or whatever exists, you have no reason to be in a discussion.

 

[RaikuFA]

just shut up blizzard. you just want it for yourself