Dragon Age: Inquistion - Can Bioware Survive Another Misstep?

[CountryMike]

BioWare are already working on a new Star Wars game (as are DICE & Visceral). So, yes, Bioware will still be around next year.

 

[RJ 17]

I'm not the one who made assumptions without proof,you did and so the onus is on you to prove your claim that people that liked DA2/ME3 were the majority.Unlike some people I don't presume to speak for everybody else,I only speak for myself and so I don't pull the majority/minority card unless there are statistics that prove it.

Check my response again:

In reality there's just as many people that thought that DA2 and ME3 were great games, and it's not just Bioware fan-boys either. Just because the nay-sayers were shouting with the loudest voice doesn't mean that they represented the majority of people that bought those games - which were commercial successes, I might add.

I never said "the majority of people liked it", I said "there's just as many people that thought that DA2 and ME3 were great games." How can I say this? Because of the mixed responses that I have gotten. I haven't read through this entire thread, but I'd imagine it's a mixed bag in these comments as well. So no, I can't prove the majority of people liked it, nor did I say that the ones that didn't like it were a vocal minority, but rather that they where the ones shouting the loudest.

I'd suggest reading someone's post a bit more carefully the next time you feel like trying to jump all over their comment.

Edit: And the bit about being commercial successes doesn't go towards people liking them, I didn't mean it to. However it applied more to the topic at hand of "Will Bioware survive?" As long as their games keep selling, they will.

You seemed to imply the "naysayers" were a minority when based on previous PR disasters suggested otherwise.Sorry if I read your post differently.

It happens. In truth I specifically avoided the term "vocal minority" because I knew that someone like you would contest it and I'd have no way of backing up my claim. As I said: from the people that I've personally discussed the games with, the reception really was a pretty mixed bag with plenty of people saying that those games rank among the most sinister crimes committed in the history of mankind while there's still plenty of other people who say "Come on guys, they weren't THAT bad" and going on to say that despite the faults they still really enjoyed the games.

I just used the term "vocal nay-sayers" because that's how I perceived it. It's easy to go out and rip a game to shreds, not so easy to try to prove to people that a game is fun despite clear flaws that you fully admit to noticing as well. That's why I think "defenders" of the games didn't come out as often as "attackers", they likely knew no matter what they said they'd get labeled as being "fanboys" and have everyone jumping down their throat. In some cases it's best to just keep your opinion to yourself so you don't have to deal with all the headache that comes from expressing it.

 

[Space commando 75]

Always a laugh to see people who still believe anything belongs to EA is going to be a success. Bioware been dead since Ea bought them.

The only question I really want answered is why Morrigan is back even after they said her story was over after witch hunt. Then again Bioware lie list is so long now I wouldn't believe them if they told me the date.

 

[pearcinator]

Fuck yas all! Bioware won't die. They will continue to put out awesome games! I only LIKED Dragon Age: Origins so I didn't buy DA2. MMO's are a time and money sink so I didn't buy TOR (even though I would have enjoyed it). I LOVED all Mass Effect games and KOTOR is my #3 favourite game of all time (behind the N64 Zeldas).

I will buy Mass Effect 4

I will buy their new IP (if it looks interesting)

I will probably buy DA: Inquisition (cos it looks pretty cool)

You can't stop me! Bioware FTW!

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I'm more gamepaly focused and did not care for the watering down effect of ME2,ME3 and DA2. If they make DA:I more like DA:O only more maps, more enchantments,ect and deeper RTS/CARPG controls I am in. Make it more like DA2 forget it.

 

[Substitute Troll]

What did they learn from these "failures"?

DA 2: People didn't like the restrictions and short cuts. They did like some aspects of the combat though. From this game, Bioware should have learned to increase responsiveness and crispness in the combat, and not use one fucking dungeon for all dungeons. They should also tighten up the dialogue so it's actually the same as the text the player sees.

SWTOR: Swtor was shit because, A: It's not nearly as engaging as KotOR was and it's a mediocre MMO at best, KotOR 2 was miles better in writing. B: The free to play mode was crap. What the should learn? Don't fuck with my Revan, Bioware.

ME3: It was expertly done. The amount of polish and teary moments in this game is insane. The combat is miles better than the previous installments. The ending was a plane crash IF THAT PLANE WAS THE FUCKING TITANIC. What should they have learned? FFS Bioware, make the ending worthy of the rest of the game. Also keep Casey Hudson away from my game.

If they do all this, I don't think the game will be bad.

And to anyone who's all "OH they've already lost my money herp derp." Get a grip. Just read the reviews and then decide, there's no point being a fundie.

 

[OpticalJunction]

They can and will survive but more because they don't have a lot of solid competition, apart from bethesda and cdprojeckt red there aren't that many good western RPG developers. That being said, da2 wasn't that bad, only quite different from the original. I believe inquisition will be great and will benefit from the extra development time.

What could've killed the studio was the flop of SWTOR, and that didn't. What might kill it next is ME4 flopping AND inquisition flopping, then EA would seriously look at the budget and decide maybe bioware isn't worth all the money they're throwing at it. Wouldn't be surprised to see bioware get its own humble bundle before that point, though.

 

[llubtoille]

As much as people complain, Mass Effect 3 was a huge success despite its ending and even Dragon Age 2 did alright sales wise. Maybe not the surprise hit that origins was, but it did well enough to warrant continuing the series.

So even if Dragon Age Inquisition were the worst game since Superman 64 Bioware would probably be just fine.

pretty much, DA2 still sold ~1mil units simply due to day one(ish) sales,
many official reviews gave it high scores, so it wasn't until the masses had finished the game that negative customer reviews began - at which point sales dwindled massively.
since it had an... 18month? dev time (compared to DA:O being at least 5 years) I imagine they still turned a good profit despite only 40% the overall sales.

I'd guess ToR would be their only financial flop, but I've not seen any figures that say one way or the other to confirm.
So DA:I? they'll probably be alright.

 

[Frozengale]

Honestly I considered DA 2 a step up in almost every single way. It was rushed, and it felt like it, but thought it was still a great game. Haven't played ME3 so I don't understand all the hate. ME2 is still one of my favorite games though. SW:TOR doesn't seem to be that bad. I'm just kinda tired of MMO's at the moment but one of my best friends seems to enjoy it. So yeah, if they have more "missteps" like DA 2 then I'd be all for that. BRING ON THE MISSTEPS.

 

[DrunkenMonkey]

Bioware really gets way too much flak lately, the only real disappointment was ME3 ending, and that's about it. So in the grand scheme of things if they continue to create games with engaging stories and characters that's all that matters.

Except if they start doing FPS's, then well............. I really hope they don't.

 

[Lictor Face]

Oh please....stop all those threads....
Yes, the ending of ME3 was kinda crap, so what? Neverwinter Nights 1 was so boring I didnt even get to finish the first level!
And with its millions of sales, I am sure EA was furious....
Also, DA 2 wasnt that bad. At least it wasnt as generic as DA1´s gather-all-the-allies-again-story. Also, I hope they dont go back to the stupid MMORPG-fighting system of DA1 in Inquisition!
People should stop to expect another Baldurs Gate 2 and just have fun playing their games!
Plus, there are companies which are doing great under EA, like DICE or Criterion.

The only thing I am afraid of is that EA keeps slapping the name "Bioware" on stuff to make it look better, like the new C&C.

..........If you didn't even finish the first area of Neverwinter Nights, you frankly have no right you condemn it OR disparage Baldur's Gate 2.


Also. DA2 wasn't that* bad*. But it was a veritable turd when compared to his primogenitor DA:O.

Also, what? DA combat being bad? Oh dear. Its people like you who cause the retrograding of nice complex games into streamlined mediocrities like DA2.



Also, Bioware would probably survive fouling up DA inquisition. BUT I dare say it would be the first of possibly many nails in the coffin for Bioware. The massive disappointment and nerdrage caused by DA2 was a tsunami, very frankly, I am losing my hope in Bioware RPGs and am looking to alternative franchises like the Witcher and things like Shadowrun.

The possibility of a Mass Effect 4 pretty much cemented my perspective of Bioware. As grey, corporation spawn. ( DAMMIT EA )

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

DA2 was the start of ominous things for Bioware after EA bought them out. DA2 indeed fell short of sales expectations...

See, and herein lies the problem -- and the skewed perspectives at work, here. First, Dragon Age is by no stretch of the imagination a "flagship" franchise for BioWare: that title would belong to Mass Effect, and the Old Republic. Those franchises admittedly have issues of their own, which is outside the scope of this post so let's set them aside for now. The franchise has been, for lack of a better way to put it, a second-string franchise for the company, and moreover a niche franchise being (nominally) Western, party-based, tactical RPG's.

Dragon Age 2 still sold, if I remember my figures right, over two million copies across all platforms (a million on the 360, 600K on the PS3, and 500K on the PC). Those aren't hall of fame sales, but still very respectable given the franchise's "B-side" status and the fact it was a niche title. It certainly didn't stand up to DA:O, which mind you was a happy accident of word-of-mouth advertising coupled with a holiday 2009 sales upswing, that could very easily be called a sleeper hit.

And, here it comes (which is the issue at hand), the dreaded word: but. DA2 failed to meet expectations...for a BioWare game. It got "poor" reviews...for a BioWare game. It sold "poorly"...for a BioWare game. Stepping outside "the BioWare bubble", it got solid reviews and solid sales, and I suspect had anyone but BioWare made the game it would have had a much warmer reception among gamers.

In the end, BioWare happened to make a mediocre game, and that's their most damning sin here. Compare that to the reputation of Maxis whose latest title quite possibly received less attention among gaming enthusiasts for surprising absolutely no one who had paid attention after Sims 3 and Spore, or Infinity Ward which gets heaped with praise for not being the nickel-and-dime anti-gamer sewer Bobby Kotick would apparently have it be.

 

[EternallyBored]

DA2 was the start of ominous things for Bioware after EA bought them out. DA2 indeed fell short of sales expectations...

See, and herein lies the problem -- and the skewed perspectives at work, here. First, Dragon Age is by no stretch of the imagination a "flagship" franchise for BioWare: that title would belong to Mass Effect, and the Old Republic. Those franchises admittedly have issues of their own, which is outside the scope of this post so let's set them aside for now. The franchise has been, for lack of a better way to put it, a second-string franchise for the company, and moreover a niche franchise being (nominally) Western, party-based, tactical RPG's.

Dragon Age 2 still sold, if I remember my figures right, over two million copies across all platforms (a million on the 360, 600K on the PS3, and 500K on the PC). Those aren't hall of fame sales, but still very respectable given the franchise's "B-side" status and the fact it was a niche title. It certainly didn't stand up to DA:O, which mind you was a happy accident of word-of-mouth advertising coupled with a holiday 2009 sales upswing, that could very easily be called a sleeper hit.

And, here it comes (which is the issue at hand), the dreaded word: but. DA2 failed to meet expectations...for a BioWare game. It got "poor" reviews...for a BioWare game. It sold "poorly"...for a BioWare game. Stepping outside "the BioWare bubble", it got solid reviews and solid sales, and I suspect had anyone but BioWare made the game it would have had a much warmer reception among gamers.

In the end, BioWare happened to make a mediocre game, and that's their most damning sin here. Compare that to the reputation of Maxis whose latest title quite possibly received less attention among gaming enthusiasts for surprising absolutely no one who had paid attention after Sims 3 and Spore, or Infinity Ward which gets heaped with praise for not being the nickel-and-dime anti-gamer sewer Bobby Kotick would apparently have it be.

See here's the problem EA didn't sink over a billion dollars (860 million for Bioware and another 300 million for The Old Republic) to get mediocre. EA spent that cash to get Bioware quality and stick a AAA games budget behind it, so 2 million copies sold isn't going to cut it even for a non flagship title.

You have to remember EA wanted to cash in on Bioware's popularity by bringing multiple studios in under the Bioware name to make a variety of games, the lukewarm DA2 sales and the TOR mediocrity basically put a halt to those plans. EA wanted Bioware to be the equivalent of what Blizzard is to Activision, one super-popular MMO backed up by a couple of really popular core franchises. After DA2 failed to be the next Mass Effect, which took off in popularity with Mass Effect 2, and TOR performed well below expectations, Bioware had to justify the massive amount of money EA spent on them. Which brings us to ME3, despite the ending controversy the game still sold pretty well. EA states that the game met initial sales expectations but the sales tapered off faster than they expected. Overall, ME3 sold about 3.6 million copies, in most places that would be considered a success, and for pre-EA Bioware that would be worthy of celebration, but remember this is EA we are talking about, the same company that said Dead Space 3 needed to sell 5 million copies to justify a sequel.

When EA bought Westwood they were one of the kings of the RTS genre and Command & Conquer was right up there with Starcraft as one of the icons of their genre. The first couple games released after the buyout were pretty good and sold pretty well. Those games were mediocre... For Westwood, and sold poorly... For Westwood, but EA doesn't buy studios to get average, and just think, where is Westwood now?

Like I said, EA has invested too much money for Bioware to be ousted that easily, DA3 won't kill Bioware, but if it does less than expected, well, EA is likely going to start looking at what they can change to make Bioware more "successful". Of course that's the doom and gloom scenario, if DA3 sells really well, then hell, maybe EA will even back off on their deadline restrictions a little, the Sims developers seem to get some slack when they want it, DA2 probably would have sold a lot better if they had more time to polish it and not reuse environments so lazily, probably even could have gotten rid of that lazy spawning enemy wave mechanic.

 

[Greg White]

The Old Republic is the only real bomb Bioware has had recently, owing mostly to the fact that MMO's are just a bad investment unless you really know what you're doing.

ME3 was a great game, even despite people getting mad at the ending.

DA2 was a really good game. Not quite on par with DA:O, but much better than Awakening and still better than most other games on the market.

 

[CloudAtlas]

(...)Also, DA 2 wasnt that bad. At least it wasnt as generic as DA1´s gather-all-the-allies-again-story. Also, I hope they dont go back to the stupid MMORPG-fighting system of DA1 in Inquisition!
People should stop to expect another Baldurs Gate 2 and just have fun playing their games!
(...)

..........If you didn't even finish the first area of Neverwinter Nights, you frankly have no right you condemn it OR disparage Baldur's Gate 2.

Also. DA2 wasn't that* bad*. But it was a veritable turd when compared to his primogenitor DA:O.

Also, what? DA combat being bad? Oh dear. Its people like you who cause the retrograding of nice complex games into streamlined mediocrities like DA2.

DA:O's combat was very similar to the WoW standard of MMO combat, and many people don't like this kind of indirect, static, hotbar and cooldown-based combat. If someone doesn't like it in an MMO, why should he like it in a single player RPG?
Preferences are just different. I claim just as well that people like you are preventing RPGs to get combat systems that are just as good, intense, and polished as they are in shooters.

The possibility of a Mass Effect 4 pretty much cemented my perspective of Bioware. As grey, corporation spawn. ( DAMMIT EA )

I'm pretty sure countless of fans are longing for a chance to return to the Mass Effect universe. Why shouldn't BioWare heed them? Yes, the ME1-3 story is over, but the universe still exist, doesn't it?

 

[CloudAtlas]

Bioware really gets way too much flak lately, the only real disappointment was ME3 ending, and that's about it. So in the grand scheme of things if they continue to create games with engaging stories and characters that's all that matters.

Except if they start doing FPS's, then well............. I really hope they don't.

Given their track record of only ever developing RPGs, that seems unlikely.

 

[BlackJimmy]

Being a bit melodramatic, don't you think?
I'd hardly call DA2 and ME3 "near-ruiness".
The majority of people love Mass Effect 3 up until the ending.
And for a rushed out job, Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn good.
I don't know about SWTOR, I played it as a single player game and enjoyed it. Even got me to to join a guild when I usually prefer to solo the story. IO don't think whatever problem the game had anything to do with how Bioware made the game.

So, yes, I think Bioware can and will survive.

 

[Smeatza]

BioWare are already working on a new Star Wars game (as are DICE & Visceral). So, yes, Bioware will still be around next year.

Wait, do you mean the upcoming expansion to The Old Republic?
Or a whole new game?
Because that's fucking exciting if so.

OT: I'm sure Bioware can survive another misstep. Because even their missteps tend to be economically sound missteps.
My opinion of them won't survive another misstep though.

And because it's slightly related.
Fuck Casey Hudson.

 

[Lictor Face]

The possibility of a Mass Effect 4 pretty much cemented my perspective of Bioware. As grey, corporation spawn. ( DAMMIT EA )

I'm pretty sure countless of fans are longing for a chance to return to the Mass Effect universe. Why shouldn't BioWare heed them? Yes, the ME1-3 story is over, but the universe still exist, doesn't it?

Does it focus on something that is in no way related to Shephard other than maybe a cameo and some background lore? Shephard has trudged through THREE lengthy rpgs. I say we let his character fade off, like how ( though i loathe to invoke DA2 ) DA2 did with Hawke. Let shephard/warden fade into the background lore and get a fresh new character. If Bioware does that, I MAY change my perspective ( Although the chances of that is enormously slim. Like Hollywood, Bioware knows that franchises/sequels are essentially free buyers regardless of how crappy the end product is )

Also, why are you saying turn based tactical combat is based off mmorpg's? Its not. mmorpgs aped it for hell if i know. Turn based tactical combat is THE combat system for multiple party based RPGs.NWN2, Baldur's gate. KOTOR. Jade Empire. DA;O. Mass effect is an FPS so im not counting that.

DA2 had more dynamic combat I admit. But its skills and combat feat/skill progression was soooooo damn streamlined it hurt the entire dynamic of TACTICAL combat ( Which DA:O most certainly advocated ) In DA:O, you can get your tank to taunt, forcefield him to make him immune to damage, cast crushing prison on him to create a spell combo that knowsdown everyone. In DA2, you purchase the biggest abilities/most powerful versions of abilities and run around hammering the cast button. Hell, I didn't even NEED to create a intricate party tactics page. I just got everybody to spam everything on everyone and the healer to just heal.

Also, please please please don't compare RPG combat to FPS combat. Two completely different genres.

 

[Raikas]

1) BW have already announced they plan to stick by various decisions which failed in DA:2 (only one selectable race, voiced protagonist, dialogue wheel etc.)
What people's opinion of those aspects are themselves is irrelevant - the concern is that BW are pigheaded enough to continue walking down a path which they see as "right", and not admit glaring issues displayed in DA:2. Sorry, but any Western RPG based on the D&D world which doesn't allow selectable races is missing a massive point of the game/genre - even if people play as humans the choice is what matters to give a feel of a true fantasy/D&D based RPG where you carve out your own destiny from scratch.

They've actually announced that they're brining back selectable races, so there's something for you.

You think that people's opinions of those aspects are irrelevant, and yet your opinion that those aspects are things that failed is not? Because fair enough if you don't enjoy those elements yourself, but that hardly makes your opinion any more relevant than that of anyone else.