Japanese RPGs Need to Change, Says Final Fantasy Creator

Low Key

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Blitzwing said:
Low Key said:
It depends on what kind of emotions are portrayed. The video I have attached below shows the bulk of the "emotion" in Final Fantasy games, and it's the main reason why I don't play them.


What do you know someone actually is using a bad parody of FFVII as an example for the entire series. Name me one main character in FF that fits that stereotype.
Calm down fella. The point I was trying to make, albeit a bit cryptic, was that FF, like a soap opera, is pretty much over-dramatized emotions. Your reaction to my poking fun at FF bears a striking resemblance. More emotion won't help the series, but will hinder it. I'm not saying the characters should be drones, but toning it down a bit will make the characters more relatable. Then again, I'm more of an even tempered person.
 

TheDoomPenguin

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The difference between jRPGs and wRPGs is that in general, wRPGs have moved past their roots in Ultima, Might & Magic, The Bard's Tale, etc and jRPGs haven't. This isn't a problem in and of its self, but when you've been doing the same thing gameplay wise for 2-2.5 decades, you either need to deliver massively on the plot or add some kind of variation to the base gameplay, which jRPG developers generally fail with. Basically, if you're gonna stick with jRPG gameplay tropes we need more Matsunos and Kawazus and less Nomuras.
 

Azure-Supernova

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JRPGs don't suffer from bad voice acting (most of the time); they don't suffer from bad combat or stale stories. They suffer from terrible - beyond Twilight - writing. The dialogue is always so unnatural its no wonder that even big hit voice actors don't manage to pull a character off.

Eternal Sonata was an incredibly engaging experience with excellent and challenging combat, a fantastic story and the sound track, don't get me started on the eargasm. Yet it featured the voices of Cam Clarke and D.C. Douglas but the voice acting sounded cringe worthy all around. Why? Because not a single word uttered through the whole game sounds like something a normal person would say! The fantasy setting I forgive, the clichéd characters I forgive. But I mean come on, you're giving voice talent hammy dialogue...

Rant on that over. My point being that JRPGs suffer because of the artificial dialogue, at least in my opinion. The plots might always be alien to Western audiences, but that doesn't mean the characters all have to act like they were all born with the same extreme sense of justice.
 

Something Amyss

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Blitzwing said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Blitzwing said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
The angsty 12 year olds with spiky hair do bug me though.

So your only experience with the genre is one bad parody then.
False, but whatever floats your boat.

Alright what JRPGs have you played then?
why, none, obviously. That's the only answer you'll accept.

Also, do I have to list all of them going back to the NES? Because I've been gaming for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.
 

MikailCaboose

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zehydra said:
To be honest, I feel that conveying emotion is something JRPG's actually aren't very good at. Especially the cutscenes in FF games that I've seen. Maybe it's just the bad voice acting.

I'd wager that you could probably make JRPGs a lot better just by removing the horrid voice acting that many of them seem to have inherited from anime.
Well, I know that VI had some legitimately good emotional scenes. Especially when it came down to Kefka's attack on...uhm...well I can't remember it, but it's the one where he poisoned the water.

On another note, The Last Story BETTER come stateside, damnit!
 

JSkunk22

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I can't wait for Final Fantasy XIII-2, Final Fantasy Versus XIII, and Persona 5. All in all, I am feeling pretty confident about those JRPGs in the sense that I will enjoy playing them.
 

MetallicaRulez0

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xPixelatedx said:
Jrpgs will always do bad here just like War FPS's will always do bad over there, with a few minor exceptions on both sides.
I agree completely. A lot of the reason that western games fail in Japan and vice versa is just cultural and story-telling-style differences. We can't really forget just how different the 2 cultures are from each other.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Azure-Supernova said:
JRPGs don't suffer from bad voice acting (most of the time); they don't suffer from bad combat or stale stories. They suffer from terrible - beyond Twilight - writing. The dialogue is always so unnatural its no wonder that even big hit voice actors don't manage to pull a character off.

Eternal Sonata was an incredibly engaging experience with excellent and challenging combat, a fantastic story and the sound track, don't get me started on the eargasm. Yet it featured the voices of Cam Clarke and D.C. Douglas but the voice acting sounded cringe worthy all around. Why? Because not a single word uttered through the whole game sounds like something a normal person would say! The fantasy setting I forgive, the clichéd characters I forgive. But I mean come on, you're giving voice talent hammy dialogue...

Rant on that over. My point being that JRPGs suffer because of the artificial dialogue, at least in my opinion. The plots might always be alien to Western audiences, but that doesn't mean the characters all have to act like they were all born with the same extreme sense of justice.
Well, even that's not exactly true. Look at the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Ogre Battle Saga, Parasite Eve 1 and 2, Vagrant Story, FF Tactics, Valkyrie Profile, and Odin Sphere. All of them had great scripts that sounded natural. Though again, a lot of JRPGs take too many cues from the post FFVII Square (though what's funny is that the copies of FFVII are only taking it at face value) when they should probably be looking further back or from different sources
 

TheDoomPenguin

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MetallicaRulez0 said:
xPixelatedx said:
Jrpgs will always do bad here just like War FPS's will always do bad over there, with a few minor exceptions on both sides.
I agree completely. A lot of the reason that western games fail in Japan and vice versa is just cultural and story-telling-style differences. We can't really forget just how different the 2 cultures are from each other.
I have to disagree. It's just a country being able to accept its own lazy tripe better than it can accept other countries' lazy tripe. Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai is widely accepted world over as one of the best and most influential movies of all time, because a good story is good no matter what culture produced it. If jRPG plots really were incredible plots there would probably be no issue with cross cultural appeal. Same with if war FPSs had incredible plots.

Aiddon said:
Well, even that's not exactly true. Look at the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Ogre Battle Saga, Parasite Eve 1 and 2, Vagrant Story, FF Tactics, Valkyrie Profile, and Odin Sphere. All of them had great scripts that sounded natural. Though again, a lot of JRPGs take too many cues from the post FFVII Square (though what's funny is that the copies of FFVII are only taking it at face value) when they should probably be looking further back or from different sources
Literally about half of that list (3/7) are done by the same guy. There are jRPG makers who do plot well, but they're few and far between.
 

Defense

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As a person who likes Hironobu Sakaguchi, I respectfully disagree. It's not about change, it's about execution. Lost Odyssey is really traditional, but it tells a great story. From what I see, WRPGs are just as stale as JRPGs.

Kavonde said:
Look, Squeenix, if you want to figure out what direction JRPGs need to go, look at Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger. Lose the stupid outfits, the mopey, androgynous heroes, and the weird, trippy, "we are all connected" themes. Just tell a story about a group of heroes saving the world. You want emotion? Look at Cyan and his family, or the coin toss between Sabin and Edgar, or the alienation of Robo, or the redemption of Frog.
I find it hilarious when you mention Final Fantasy VI and talk about losing stupid outfits.

It's not something that happened at Final Fantasy VII, it's just a culture thing in Japan to use unique art style.

Agreed on everything else though.
 

SanguineSymphony

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The only problems I see with the Genre is that it is bloated and full of Creative Talents relying on past concepts that have been seen too many times before. There are innovative and fun games in the genre its just with so many being made the ones that get the most attention tend to be FF and FF Clones.

I wish the DEVs would try to perfect concepts brought forth by SMT:Nocturne and the Persona Games and not FF VII and X.
 

Kiyosuki

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I do agree to an extent that the emotional core, somewhat more complex storytelling, and most of all the personality of diverse casts of characters was one of the biggest draws to a Japanese rpg back in the genres glory days. Going back to the SNES era and then going forward a bit, a larger amount of japanese rpgs just tended to have a lot of personality than their western counterparts. Sure there were also some games on the western end that weren't like this and likewise there were some pretty dreary, lifeless games on the japanese side but by far Japanese rpgs were doing things with characters that had tons of personality, an interconnected and narrative based plot, and had decent to even great gameplay to back it up. This isn't saying there weren't fun-RPG esque games outside of Japan, but nothing like Chrono Trigger was being made outside of Japanese shores; something that mixed good gameplay, great visuals, and a really fun and different (for games at the time) story that intermingled with the gameplay superbly.

I think what Sakaguchi is getting at isn't that emotions are -still- the biggest draw of japanese rpgs, but that they -were-. Jrpgs have definitely suffered a problem of stagnation in not just gameplay and innovation, but in terms of story, characters, and what's done with those characters. I couldn't believe in FFXII...that despite being in Ivalice which has to be one of the most diverse and colorful worlds the series has ever produced, subjected you to playing in a party of nothing but same faced Humes (and token elf gir-, Viera.) It is definitely one thing that could step it up a bit.

Granted that's one of many issues that could be addressed; better gameplay, and the problem of linearity....I think the Mass Effect series proves that a game can still have a highly narrative story that's not completely linear. That's besides the point of the article though and I don't want to turn this into an article itself, but yeah story is definitely one thing that's taken a hit too I think.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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TheDoomPenguin said:
Literally about half of that list (3/7) are done by the same guy. There are jRPG makers who do plot well, but they're few and far between.
Just like how the guys who make WRPG plots and scripts well are few and far between. Seriously, when people talk about RPGs from the West how many times are they referring to companies OTHER than Bioware or Bethesda? For every KOTOR, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout, and Elder Scrolls you have stuff like Sacred 2, Alpha Protocol, and Two Worlds.

And here, I can name a few more from the east. The Chrono series, FFs IV, VI, and VII, Xenogears, FF Tactics Advance, Front Mission 3, the Mario RPGs, Lunar, Earthbound, and Suikoden 1 and 2.
 

Dusk17

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I wouldnt mind jrpgs if it wasnt for the turn based combat. To me it is a boring and repetitive choice of attack, magic,or item. I dont see how people can sit and play a game like that for hours and hours. And dont ***** at me for saying that, i know that many people like turn based combat, i am merely saying that i do not like it. Also whats with all the hostile jrpg fans acting like people are persecuting their favorite games?
 

SanguineSymphony

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Dusk17 said:
I wouldnt mind jrpgs if it wasnt for the turn based combat. To me it is a boring and repetitive choice of attack, magic,or item. I dont see how people can sit and play a game like that for hours and hours. And dont ***** at me for saying that, i know that many people like turn based combat, i am merely saying that i do not like it. Also whats with all the hostile jrpg fans acting like people are persecuting their favorite games?
Depending on the game all of those options could have diverse attributes to take into account before attacking. In Persona 3 and 4 there are three different Weapon Damage types alone. Add in Elements, Buffs, and other options and it becomes a lot deeper of a system than it seems at first glance.
 

Dusk17

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SanguineSymphony said:
Dusk17 said:
I wouldnt mind jrpgs if it wasnt for the turn based combat. To me it is a boring and repetitive choice of attack, magic,or item. I dont see how people can sit and play a game like that for hours and hours. And dont ***** at me for saying that, i know that many people like turn based combat, i am merely saying that i do not like it. Also whats with all the hostile jrpg fans acting like people are persecuting their favorite games?
Depending on the game all of those options could have diverse attributes to take into account before attacking. In Persona 3 and 4 there are three different Weapon Damage types alone. Add in Elements, Buffs, and other options and it becomes a lot deeper of a system than it seems at first glance.
But it is still as involving and fun as filling out paperwork. If i wanted a game about turn based strategy i would play chess. The only jrpgs i have liked were the ones that somehow incorporated some kind of real time aspect with the combat.
 

SanguineSymphony

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Dusk17 said:
SanguineSymphony said:
Dusk17 said:
I wouldnt mind jrpgs if it wasnt for the turn based combat. To me it is a boring and repetitive choice of attack, magic,or item. I dont see how people can sit and play a game like that for hours and hours. And dont ***** at me for saying that, i know that many people like turn based combat, i am merely saying that i do not like it. Also whats with all the hostile jrpg fans acting like people are persecuting their favorite games?
Depending on the game all of those options could have diverse attributes to take into account before attacking. In Persona 3 and 4 there are three different Weapon Damage types alone. Add in Elements, Buffs, and other options and it becomes a lot deeper of a system than it seems at first glance.
But it is still as involving and fun as filling out paperwork. If i wanted a game about turn based strategy i would play chess. The only jrpgs i have liked were the ones that somehow incorporated some kind of real time aspect with the combat.
I tend to play about a Dozen or more different games at a time. I have a backlog of about 30 and 13 of those are games I am actively playing. In that context the JRPG turn based model works as rest from something more fast paced like DMC, Vanquish, Bayonetta or even Pac Man CE DX.

I like real time too but I want it at a frantic pace and the only JRPG I played that has any incentive for that style of Game Play is Cross Edge. And the Story completion in that game is terrible.

I look at it as different gameplay styles for different moods.
 

Pumpkinmancer

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If by emotions he mean emo angsty self loathing then sure why not.

I think JRPGs have a problem in that they are little more than an onrails interactive story with little or no choice and no consequence.
 

Dusk17

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SanguineSymphony said:
Dusk17 said:
SanguineSymphony said:
Dusk17 said:
I wouldnt mind jrpgs if it wasnt for the turn based combat. To me it is a boring and repetitive choice of attack, magic,or item. I dont see how people can sit and play a game like that for hours and hours. And dont ***** at me for saying that, i know that many people like turn based combat, i am merely saying that i do not like it. Also whats with all the hostile jrpg fans acting like people are persecuting their favorite games?
Depending on the game all of those options could have diverse attributes to take into account before attacking. In Persona 3 and 4 there are three different Weapon Damage types alone. Add in Elements, Buffs, and other options and it becomes a lot deeper of a system than it seems at first glance.
But it is still as involving and fun as filling out paperwork. If i wanted a game about turn based strategy i would play chess. The only jrpgs i have liked were the ones that somehow incorporated some kind of real time aspect with the combat.
I tend to play about a Dozen or more different games at a time. I have a backlog of about 30 and 13 of those are games I am actively playing. In that context the JRPG turn based model works as rest from something more fast paced like DMC, Vanquish, Bayonetta or even Pac Man CE DX.

I like real time too but I want it at a frantic pace and the only JRPG I played that has any incentive for that style of Game Play is Cross Edge. And the Story completion in that game is terrible.

I look at it as different gameplay styles for different moods.
I can understand liking different gameplay styles but turn based still feels very repetitive and tedious to me. Choose this, press that, enemy attacks, heal, repeat til dead.