Jimquisition: Previewed, Preordered, Prescrewed

jdogtwodolla

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Feb 12, 2009
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I see many people here saying that they will or have only pre-ordered a game they knew they would like. My question to these people is: How did/do you know?
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Harker067 said:
Yeah only a few companies (atlus, Cd projct red) have gotten a preorder from me in a long time. Almost anything else I'll wait and see probably months down the line. Hell I only got portal 2 last week.
vxicepickxv said:
Pretty much the only companies that I can trust now for preorders are Atlus and Bethesda. Which is funny, because I know when I get a Bethesda product, I know it's going to be buggy
you know what? one day game dev x is going to make a game that doesnt reach your expectations, then you'll be here screaming away on the forums about how game dev x killed your dog and sold your grandma into prostitution
 

The_Darkness

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Nov 8, 2010
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jdogtwodolla said:
I see many people here saying that they will or have only pre-ordered a game they knew they would like. My question to these people is: How did/do you know?
We-elll, in the case of Halo:CE Anniversary Edition, because it was already one of my favourite games ever (and the exploding grunts skull was too awesome to pass up). Though I'm guessing that one doesn't really count, since it was technically just a re-release with a texture mod and a shiny new case. That said, I'd never actually bought the original.

Mass Effect 2 and 3. (Yes I know, touchy subject.) Pre-ordered the Limited Edition in both cases. I didn't know they were going to be awesome. However, I knew that I was going to end up playing them anyway, and I was already invested in the series in both cases. For ME2, it was only the second Bioware game I'd ever played - but I knew and trusted their reputation. Was there a risk? Yes. Was I disappointed? No. Not in either case. (Lets not get into a discussion about the ending.)

Other than that? DX:HR I pre-ordered on the basis of an awesome trailer, a brilliant soundtrack, the promise of an intriguing storyline, and a gameplay demonstration of an early level. And a desire for a silenced sniper-rifle. And, again, I was not disappointed... mostly (until the story lost its way for the last two hours or so...) I actually came out ahead with this pre-order - I paid for the Augmented version. Game.co.uk had too many pre-orders, and upgraded me to the Collector's Edition at no extra cost...

And I think that's the sum total of my pre-orders. All in all, I'd agree that pre-order is a risk, and should only be done with caution. But it's a good way of throwing an extra bit of support behind a game that you know you're going to pick up anyway.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Jun 24, 2010
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I say leave people be when it comes to pre orders.

The less people pre ordering games, the more pre order 'incentives' (aka cut content sold separately) there will be.
 

CryoSynth

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Jun 2, 2011
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Personally I find I just WANT to believe the sort of misrepresentation that goes on, just so desperate for more good games.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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It's this kinda of shit that has me convinced that the game industry is no longer worth my time or what little money I don't have.
 

Antari

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Nov 4, 2009
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Previewed, Preordered, Prescrewed

Preorder culture expects gamers to trust developers more than ever, but how does that work when they inspire so little faith?

Watch Video
The finest episode yet! Flawless! Thank god for you Jim!
 

Antari

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Nov 4, 2009
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canadamus_prime said:
It's this kinda of shit that has me convinced that the game industry is no longer worth my time or what little money I don't have.
We can always go back to lawn darts ... They are only mildly lethal to friends and family.
 

Harker067

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Sep 21, 2010
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Vault101 said:
Harker067 said:
Yeah only a few companies (atlus, Cd projct red) have gotten a preorder from me in a long time. Almost anything else I'll wait and see probably months down the line. Hell I only got portal 2 last week.
vxicepickxv said:
Pretty much the only companies that I can trust now for preorders are Atlus and Bethesda. Which is funny, because I know when I get a Bethesda product, I know it's going to be buggy
you know what? one day game dev x is going to make a game that doesnt reach your expectations, then you'll be here screaming away on the forums about how game dev x killed your dog and sold your grandma into prostitution
Or not... I honestly can't remember the last time a game not hitting my expectations made me through a fit. I can't say I've ranted on escapist about any of my frustrations either I tend to avoid those threads. My pre-ordering is more about my appreciation of games past then about expectations about future games.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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What really worries me is that despite all of Jim's preaching and everyone else who tries to draw people's attention to these kinds of issues there is still going to be an alarming number of blind idiots who will not only continue to buy into this bullshit, but actually defend it which can only mean that these kind of bullshit practices are not going to stop anytime soon.
 
Mar 30, 2010
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I think it's fair to say that most of us have been stung by pre-orders, but I'm interested to hear Jim's take on Kickstarters - surely the 'ultimate' pre-order.

As misleading as it may have been, Gearbox's A:CM trailer gave a vague hint as to final game content. At least people who pre-ordered this game had some rather hazy idea of what they were getting. Well what of the current 'darling' of gaming, the kickstarter? Asking customers to hand over their money with no idea whatsoever of what kind of game will emerge from said process and then expecting the same customers who paid for the game's development to then pay full price (and probably a pre-order bonus) for the finished product?!

It's been said before, but I'll say it again: How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit...
 
Jan 22, 2011
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LordLundar said:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 said:
can I just give one defense to pre-ordering games from gamestop?? For some one that has limited finical means such as myself, it's a way of making small down payment for a game I really do want. Say for example Nisa is going to release disgaea 4 for the ps-vita in 2014. I really like the franchise already and trust their quality for making games. This will allow me a 3-4 month period to pay off a 30-40 dollar game at full retail price with out having to scrap up all that money in one-day.
Layaways used to do that before they got largely phased out. In fact, the only difference between the two is with a layaway you were still paying in parts for something guaranteed to be there and in the expected condition instead of a promissory note that may not (and most likely will not) be true.
I'm well aware that is how i bought my first PlayStation one, game-cube, ps2 and so on. I don't really mind the pre-ordering system if used correctly, sadly most people just hop on and pre-order game hoping it will be good. I've been burned here before my-self back in 08 with square-enix's release of the last remnant for the xbox 360. I was thinking that this game looks fantastic, finally a hardcore jrpg for the 360 based on trailers, limited game-play footage etc. What we got was a mess and saddened me more as gamer, even a consumer of games in general but I learned from this mistake.

jdogtwodolla said:
I see many people here saying that they will or have only pre-ordered a game they knew they would like. My question to these people is: How did/do you know?
Well it depends on the company developing the game. I would used Bethesda for example here when I heard they where making fallout 3. I really loved morrowind and oblivion "apically what their engine could do", so to see a fallout game in that environment had me giddy with joy. Then there is brand loyalty with established franchises such as Nisa strategy rpgs such as the disgea franchise.

I know what to expect from this franchise in the quality department because the company is small, has a loyal fan-base that will always support them. However they could do something so drastic like square enix has done with the final fantasy franchise to loose fans, but this is why I prefer the niche gaming market now.
 

AyaReiko

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Aug 9, 2008
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I have an idea that can put the power back to the consumers at least on the digital front. It has 0% of ever happening, but it's the best defense against this shit.

Two words: "Satisfaction Guaranteed"

If you don't like what you got in... let's say... three days or less, you can get a refund (to your Steam/Origin/etc Wallet) no questions asked.

Like I said, I know it won't happen, but name me one other industry other than the video game industry that's developed such an immense and callous disregard for its customers.
 

mike1921

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karma9308 said:
mike1921 said:
Saviordd1 said:
http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/us/en/pc/games/shooter/bioshock-infinite-na/
$10-$17 off for preordering. I think Jim and TB both neglected to say anything that really would always be against pre ordering a game for an actually tangible and significant benefit (It's so fucking rare a preorder bonus is significant they can't be blamed). For context: aliens pre-order came with fucking multiplayer skins. And it's from gearbox, who to my knowledge were heavily involved in duke nukem forever.

It's a risk versus reward scenario: In aliens the potential reward was fucking tiny and the risk was this scenario playing out right now.
.....This is probably the worst place to put this, but you've really made me want to pre-order Bioshock:Infinite now.
Eh I don't see the issue since I just explained why this is a vastly different situation. Go ahead, pre-order, I rate the odds of infinite sucking at way less than 1/6. To be frank I think the only way to keep preorders alive if gamers smarten up is to do deals like that.
 

Tono Makt

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vxicepickxv said:
Pretty much the only companies that I can trust now for preorders are Atlus and Bethesda. Which is funny, because I know when I get a Bethesda product, I know it's going to be buggy.
Buggy =/= Crappy, which is probably why you still preorder Bethesda games. Granted the bugs can be astoundingly aggravating (I got stuck as a werewolf with the cursed ring of Hiricine and both quests to "stop" the badness went through without a hitch... except that the ring stayed cursed and my character stayed a Werewolf. On top of not being able to have a Follower because I dismissed Lidya which the game didn't register properly. ARGH, entire character pretty much down the drain since I didn't have any saved games from prior to joining the Circle.) but their games are still very good otherwise.

And as others have said, some of the bugs are just giggle-worthy.

/doesn't pre-order games, but that's not a moral stance; I tried to pre-order ME3's Collectors Edition, but Canadian Best Buy wasn't carrying it and I didn't have money free on any other credit card at the time. Really dodged a bullet there, in retrospect.
 

mfeff

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Headdrivehardscrew said:
mfeff said:
Reserves? "Jazz Hands!"
Oh, wow. You came here with a heart full of emotions and a brain full of words, it seems.

Awesome post, though. So awesome I found myself just skipping over and stop autocorrecting the spelling mistakes, instantly feeling stupid for being a part-time grammar nazi.
Unfortunately, I get that A LOT! When I was going through uni as an undergraduate I hired people from time to time to edit my writing submissions that where to be peer reviewed. My background for better or for worse, has very little to do with "writing".

Licensed trees
hahaha Tree ware! Working on stuff from time to time I still find some sympathy for the poor schmuck who gets stuck with the job of scenery. Load up skyrim tool box sometime and just count the number of wall textures. It's a thankless job. =D

The whole Alien conundrum is, methinks, not easily wrapped up, but I believe I see certain similarities of the 'horse meat scandal' that seems to have a firm grip over major European countries and big-name, big-money food companies and the 'utterly shite games non-scandal' state of affairs. We're bound to (want to) trust big names (Findus, Aldi, EA, Activision), but the bigger they get, the more important streamlined everything gets for them, to keep a tab on costs and TCO and ROI and whatnot.
Well, to be fair I expected this to happen sooner or later and A:CM was a perfect storm. Sega like Paradox not to long back gets taken for a ride. Remember Sword of the Stars 2? Paradox changed part of their development strategy thanks to that which included more progress reports from the studios as to the state of the products. Sega for better or for worse does publish the Total War series, which I find to be excellent. I can't pretend to know what the state of the union is with the studios or publishers, I imagine they are quite well aware of what it is they do.

I just don't think it goes much further than "awareness". Like smoking.

When I was working in box retail (distribution) the larger companies had very little knowledge of "games", but an exceptional knowledge of markets. Publishers today are filled to the brim with marketing and management staff. There is a massive bureaucratic infrastructure with these projects. To put that in perspective if Acti-Blizzard looses I think about 25 percent of it's player base in WoW, the company goes immediately into the red from cost overhead.

They cheated and lied, and the crap they sold us is not worth any real time or money from average gamers, and it's bound to emotionally impact fans of the series in a very negative way. Aliens: Colonial Marines is cancer, ADD, depression and smallpox all rolled into one. It's a bad one.
As obvious as it is, I think it would still be quite difficult to prove and nearly impossible to liable. The FPS in my book pretty much hit it's stride as a game "phenotype" (to borrow a bio word), with the Rainbow 6 Raven Shield series. I think the ARMA development has been interesting, and while the COD and BF franchises have created some breathtaking games, have really crippled "what could have been" in a rush to find that "market penetration" of Mario party with guns.

Essentially the genre has been in a wack' a mole mode for some years now. Maybe it took A:CM to make the point? It certainly makes it better than anything I could of ever written about. Though with Day Z and other mods I do find that there has been somewhat of a Renascence with the notion of what these products "used" to be like.

Sitting around with some friendlies we discussed what one would do with the Aliens license, and again, in all fairness; it was somewhat destined to suck ass. Could probably do a video blog on the subject detailing the challenges presented to a "games" designer.

Now I am not talking about lighting, and texture maps, or stuff like that... simply as objects in a 3d space, how would one go about making the alien aggressor interesting in the context of the firepower of the marines. How does one take that and craft ones levels and streamline behavior with scripts to keep it engaging. Then again when I work out a game I start with a big piece of cardboard, plastic figures, and a ruler. Always keeping in mind the limitations of the video and mainboard ram states... as well as thinking, "if i put a 90 degree turn here, I can drop out all the previous stage from the z buffer, and load an interesting scene here". This is heavily done in Dead Space 3. It's impressive what they get away with considering the limitations of the hardware it has to run on.

Stuff like having the hud pop up, a flash interface in a 3d space, has patents on it. It's sometimes surprising the sheer amount of technical know how it takes to do something that seems as simple as that.

Don't even get me started on A.I. man o' man. "smart" systems are thesis for master's and Ph.D of computational mathematics.

If you can't get it off a shelf, or google the script for it, your hiring for it... and those people do not come cheap, if they are even available at all. It's beyond the scope of most game studios.

Yeah Horde mode!

With aliens I want to really get a sense of 3d and speed; so much so it is disorienting. The original AVP would of been a good place to start, but I may of tried to take it further. As it stands no amount of polishing will make A:CM anything more than a turd... polished up. It was fundamentally broken before it ever started and no amount of crummy writing and half baked ret-conning was going to save it.

It had to be "at it's core" an interesting game. We know the world, the weapons, the sound effects; to capture those hearts and minds it had to deliver some outstanding "game play". Good luck with that... nowadays... (to many "art" people, not enough math people).

Pure tech hurdles... destructible terrain, smart AI, working with the environment as the marines to hold a defense. Like stuff... I dunno... in a game? It's the ire I have for the genre.

Keep in mind one can play through Aliens, and the hardest of difficulties... by "running" through the scenes. I mean... c'mon. Rly?

Alas it is a very uninspired game dressed up and peddled on the merit of the license.

Reminds me of Homefront, when they got the "writer" from Red Dawn to scribble some junk for it. Marketing.

I like your little bit about the Bushmaster M98B. I like the story, genesis, history of how it came to be. It took inspiration and dedication and significant risk taking to get this thing made, not just dreamed about.
Yucky bushmaster! Barrett M98B is in a league all it's own. Personally I wouldn't own a bushmaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M98B

Bushmaster has gained some notoriety for their .223 XM series which is a clone of sorts of the AR-15 5.56mm cartridge. To go a little off topic the Batman shooter utilized one and I think it jammed 5 rounds in. Does not inspire a lot of confidence.

However, consider this: Currently, I don't believe important technological bits like Betamax or Laserdisc could happen in our current economical climate. Sony must prevail, one way or another, but I must admit that I haven't even bought so much as Sony TV for at least a decade, after pretty much twenty years of brand loyalty. I love my PS3, but from the top of my head, I can't think of a Sony developed or Sony funded title that really blew my mind lately. Was Journey funded by Sony? If yes, that's the one. The Sony party brawl thing - I haven't even played it once up to this point in time, and that can't possibly be a good sign.
Depends I think on what technology we are discussing. The Cry Engine as an example is used by military, as well as a heavily modified version of the ARMA engines. Many of the game engines have commercial avenues outside of game development usually in the form of well, military, and sometimes commercial products for simulations.


To my knowledge Journey was supported by Sony. I think it is an interesting product, although I little light on "game". I am not exactly sure how those fiscals are written up, although I imagine there was a considerable amount of support by Sony internal development staff.

Sony like many Japanese companies really need a western market presence, they simply do not have the population in their own country to remain viable. Blu-Ray is here to stay for the moment as well as digital distribution. I expect all the newer consoles to carry a little more ram, a little more of a video solution, and certainly more storage to facilitate the distribution mechanisms. The Sony system is designed around utilizing cloud technology, and I expect that they will continue to drive towards that (Dust 514 comes to mind). They build a good system, just never have been particularly impressed with their software or pipeline. Havok engine has made a killing off Sony products. Ni No Kuni, Demons Souls, many many other games all use it.

Plug n' Chug.

I got a heavy disconnect with EA going on, I ignore most of the shit Activision cranks out. From ten to twenty games bought per year I went down to... three to four titles a year. Everything else just makes me happier with less money, and most of the additional time I spend outside, with or without other people, seems so much more important and precious to me. Driving a car, skinning deer, burying a dog and teaching a new puppy new tricks and laying down the general rules of how not be an asshole seems so much more satisfying than playing crap games and even paying money for them.
That has been a pretty big change. Consoles where expected to sell 6-8 new titles during the life of a system by a household, if your dropping your purchases down, others are as well. Several big box stores have taken a pounding. Lot's of reasons for this, probably write a treatise on the subject.

I have consoles though I tend to stick to PC for my game entertainment. Like you said though, my interest in the rehash and crippling of the product has severely upset my purchasing decisions. I just don't think one gets one's money out of these products. My interest have also changed as well. So it's not all industry fault.

Yeah, I like Ni No Kuni. But I just can't be arsed to spend weekend after weekend dumping hours into it. I'll finish it, but I am much more likely to dump another hundred or so hours into Dark Souls, over the course of the months to come.
We have enjoyed it, but I have a few nit picks with the title. Dark Souls is good stuff, very much enjoyed that as well. Although again, that is something of a rebrand of a previous From Soft. library... so I consider it to be the 7th or 8th game of a series. Very smart design decisions. I am happy with From Soft although I expect round 3 to be crippled looking for that market penetration.

Man, really enjoyed chatting with you!
 

geldonyetich

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Partway through that, at about the point where Jim was discussing, "Why is it that the customers have to earn the company's loyalty other than the other way around," that I remembered there's actually a very practical reason why developers are trying to entice us into preorders and DLC.

And that reason is right here, in another Escapist article:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7225-Piracy-Numbers

They developers are demonstratively right to know that getting people to preorder is one of the only ways they can guarantee they're getting their money before people just pirate the damn thing anyway. Exclusive pre-order bonuses just seal the deal, conveying the appearance that this is something you won't be able to get if you pirate it (irregardless of the truth of the matter that this is just more content the pirates are going to figure out how to bundle). DLC works out of the opposite side for the same reason, it's what you sell when you expect people to pirate the game but hope to at least get them to buy some content for it.

So, backpedal a bit, the cardinal sin being committed here is actually the gross misrepretation of the product through demos like Aliens: Colonial Marines. That's a deeper problem, that being that, in the last couple decades at least, a lot of truth-in-advertising enforcement has just not been getting done.

Yet, even if they're not getting the book thrown at them for this, there's definite consequences to this. I would be surprised if Gearbox has not had their brand name irreparably tarnished in many potential customers' minds by this Colonial Marines Demo stunt, joining the ranks of Old School EA (although they show signs of improvement at times) and Bobby Kotick headed Activision. I'm definitely thinking twice before buying anything with the Gearbox name on it now, and I'm not even an Aliens fan.
 

MrMixelPixel

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I feel pretty safe in preordering Pokemon X and Y. I just... have this feeling in my gut after playing every other Pokemon game, I'm gonna like it. I rarely preorder, but when I do... I'm usually right.

Although, with that said, I'm cautious for the various reasons Jim presented.