Just, wow dude! Seriously?Kerg3927 said:
Cain and Abel? Jealousy? Greed? Protect the weak-willed?!
Yikes.
New hard game comes out. Idiot press wants easy mode.
- Thread starter CritialGaming
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Cain and Abel? Jealousy? Greed? Protect the weak-willed?!
Yikes.
You missed my point, which is that a set difficulty offers a different challenge to different people. Souls games only notoriously hard to gamers that didn't grow up when games were actually hard. OG Super Mario Brothers requires more skill out of the player than Dark Souls. If I wanted to demonstrate I was some super awesome badass gamer, I'd choose to tell you about my time with the game that actually coined the term "git gud [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/git-gud]" instead of my time with the Souls games. I don't consider having to dodge enemies that are slower than basically every other action game and mashing R1 to stun lock them as a hard game, not to mention all the cheese that the games allow. And the traps and situations in Souls are easy to figure it if you just play cautiously and pay attention.Silentpony said:
Everyone should chill on this topic. If you find the game too hard, that's a minor nuisance. Don't play it, complain a bit if you want and move on. An easy mode wouldn't ruin it either, given that you needn't turn it on.
Haven't played Sekiro yet. As for Dark Souls, it is hard, in the sense that it will frequently halt progression. It does so more however, through you not knowing what to do, than through being that mechanically unplayable, or always requiring the exact right judgement. XCom or FTL remains hard once you know the mechanics. In Dark Souls every enemy becomes predictable, and most of them are rather slow. Every boss has weak spots, though hidden. Once you know where to go, you don't accidentally stroll past hidden bonfires and at some point you realize how to spot the mimics and that you can in fact spot them. That only leaves the few platforming area's as a genuine pain in the ass. (Sen's fortress...
) While there are many ways of making it easier on yourself, like summoning, changing your build, leveling up by going through an easier area first, asking friends for help, watching a lets play, etc, the game also revels in obscurity and intimidation so it needn't be obvious how to do any of that usefully either. Learning to get around in dark souls is by nature kind of painful and I didn't find it that enjoyable. The second playthrough or even the playthrough of your second dark souls game is more fun, because it isn't so hard and obtuse anymore.
Haven't played Sekiro yet. As for Dark Souls, it is hard, in the sense that it will frequently halt progression. It does so more however, through you not knowing what to do, than through being that mechanically unplayable, or always requiring the exact right judgement. XCom or FTL remains hard once you know the mechanics. In Dark Souls every enemy becomes predictable, and most of them are rather slow. Every boss has weak spots, though hidden. Once you know where to go, you don't accidentally stroll past hidden bonfires and at some point you realize how to spot the mimics and that you can in fact spot them. That only leaves the few platforming area's as a genuine pain in the ass. (Sen's fortress...
) While there are many ways of making it easier on yourself, like summoning, changing your build, leveling up by going through an easier area first, asking friends for help, watching a lets play, etc, the game also revels in obscurity and intimidation so it needn't be obvious how to do any of that usefully either. Learning to get around in dark souls is by nature kind of painful and I didn't find it that enjoyable. The second playthrough or even the playthrough of your second dark souls game is more fun, because it isn't so hard and obtuse anymore.
Subtitles don't actually change the movie. A critic can watch a foreign movie with subtitles and get the intended experience, because the subtitles are just a translation. They don't change the movie.Casual Shinji said:
Different gameplay modes change the game. The equivalent would be critics asking for movies to recast their characters using actors the critic likes more. "Yeah I could watch a Samurai movie, but it'd be easier for me to enjoy if it Chris Evans was recast in the role"
Devs should have a right to draw a line under their work and say 'this is how we intended you to experience this'
We don't do this for any other type of mode. We don't say yeah Starcraft looks fun, but I don't do RTS, could there be a racing mode instead? We don't look at NFL2k and think in order for me to enjoy it it really should be an MMORPG.
I don't mind a hard game having an easy mode.
Most of the enjoyment of the recent FROM (or any well designed difficult game) is the rush of brain chemicals you get from beating a hard boss. If people want to rob themselves of that feeling then fair enough but they're missing out on what makes a challenging game satisfying to beat. Half of the fun of STALKER is getting past the incredibly hard hobo stage, actually getting good gear and suddenly feeling like you can take on The Zone on fair terms. If you play a game thats intentionally designed to be hard on an easier mode then you're just robbing yourself of half the game. But hey, it's you're money.
And arguably Souls already has an easy mode in the form of summoning. I played all of Bloodborne offline and beat every boss (including the Defiled Chalice dungeons) solo. If you summoned on any boss the first time you beat it, please remove yourself from my presence, easy mode peseant.
Most of the enjoyment of the recent FROM (or any well designed difficult game) is the rush of brain chemicals you get from beating a hard boss. If people want to rob themselves of that feeling then fair enough but they're missing out on what makes a challenging game satisfying to beat. Half of the fun of STALKER is getting past the incredibly hard hobo stage, actually getting good gear and suddenly feeling like you can take on The Zone on fair terms. If you play a game thats intentionally designed to be hard on an easier mode then you're just robbing yourself of half the game. But hey, it's you're money.
And arguably Souls already has an easy mode in the form of summoning. I played all of Bloodborne offline and beat every boss (including the Defiled Chalice dungeons) solo. If you summoned on any boss the first time you beat it, please remove yourself from my presence, easy mode peseant.
Not me personally, no. But overall, I think there's definitely something there. Otherwise, why do the Souls critics get so emotional when demanding an easy mode? You don't see me getting emotional and demanding that Lego games, for example, add an adult mode that is not so easy and silly. I don't play those games. I don't even think about them, because they are kids' games and not for me, and I'm totally fine with that.erttheking said:
So you're a fellow Souls fan. Awesome. So you yourself are obviously not jealous of other Souls players. So what is your skin in this game? Do you feel sorry for those who can't beat Soulsborne games or are too scared to try? Or do you feel bad for them because they feel inferior (i.e. jealous). If so, you're NOT helping them. You don't give a child candy every time he asks for it. He'll just get lazy and entitled, and will ultimately be more unhappy in the long run. And if you remove obstacles from a gamer's path, you just make them lazy and entitled and lacking in self-confidence because they are not used to facing and overcoming adversity, which again, ultimately makes them more unhappy in the long run.erttheking said:
Someone on another forum called it the Path of Least Resistance Gaming Fallacy. I don't know if that is actually a thing, but I totally agree with the premise. Basically, if given the option, players will often choose the path that offers the quickest and easiest route to their chosen goal, even if that route cheapens the game and makes the overall experience lackluster. This is because we're hardwired to do that. We usually look for the quickest and easiest ways to get results.
I would add that humans tend to define themselves by the obstacles that they overcome. It builds self-pride and self-confidence, so we are happiest when we are overcoming obstacles and getting commensurate rewards, not when we are getting everything we want handed to us for no effort.
I think From is well aware of these concepts, and doesn't put easy modes in their games because of it. They want their players to have the best experience possible, because satisfied customers will buy more of their games. And to ensure that, they don't give players a path of least resistance that might tempt them and lead to them ruining their experience.
Also, you say you hate "elitism." But I would argue that what you're referring to is simply pride in achievement.
When you beat Ornstein and Smough for the first time, did you feel a sense of pride? Even a little? Because if you say no, I would have a hard time believing that, because I think it's a good bet that you got stomped on at least the first attempt in embarrassing fashion, like most people. So, assuming you did feel some pride, what's wrong with that? Did it not feel good? So what's so bad about wanting others to have that same feeling, and to protect them from the temptation to take an easy route that would likely ruin the experience for them?
Switch in difficulty is the same as recasting all actors in a movie? Come on you're just reaching for it now.Silentpony said:
Yeah, they do have that right. That's not even what this is about. It's about certain Souls fans being childishly uptight about their precious hardcore difficulty. And it has nothing to do with having it be as intended by the developers (btw there have been loads of patches that have buffed and nerfed weapons and items in these games). I can assure you if Fromsoft patched in a higher difficulty for Bloodborne or Sekiro the fanbase would be all over that shit. It's the idea of an optional lower entry bar that some of them find unbearable, because how dare normies be allowed to experience something they spent so much time and effort in accomplishing.
An easy mode doesn't take away the purpose of the game (just as it doesn't take away the purpose of other games), all it seems to take away is the Souls fan's sense of pride.
Nope. End of story. And as for them getting emotional, A. the guy mentioned in the OP seemed to be pretty chill about it (and was a Souls fan) and B. the anti-easy mode people always seem to be the ones losing their minds in this argument. I mean, which side is the one comparing their opposition to the biblical Cain?Kerg3927 said:
And an easy mode is going to make people entitled? Dude. Video games are a leisurely pastime. Stop being so dramatic. And is anyone going to respond to my radical concept that an easy mode can be challenging, just not as challenging? Persona 3 FES did that just fine, same with FTL: Faster Than Light. I still felt nothing short of euphoria when I beat them.
Oh
Gonna quote myself.
erttheking said:
I absolutely hated defeating Ormstein and Smough. I was angry for days. There has never been a sense of achievement defeating them. The developers clearly were just trying to be difficult for not much reason. Same with the Anor Londo archers. Just nonsenseKerg3927 said:Not me personally, no. But overall, I think there's definitely something there. Otherwise, why do the Souls critics get so emotional when demanding an easy mode? You don't see me getting emotional and demanding that Lego games, for example, add an adult mode that is not so easy and silly. I don't play those games. I don't even think about them, because they are kids' games and not for me, and I'm totally fine with that.erttheking said:
So you're a fellow Souls fan. Awesome. So you yourself are obviously not jealous of other Souls players. So what is your skin in this game? Do you feel sorry for those who can't beat Soulsborne games or are too scared to try? Or do you feel bad for them because they feel inferior (i.e. jealous). If so, you're NOT helping them. You don't give a child candy every time he asks for it. He'll just get lazy and entitled, and will ultimately be more unhappy in the long run. And if you remove obstacles from a gamer's path, you just make them lazy and entitled and lacking in self-confidence because they are not used to facing and overcoming adversity, which again, ultimately makes them more unhappy in the long run.erttheking said:
Someone on another forum called it the Path of Least Resistance Gaming Fallacy. I don't know if that is actually a thing, but I totally agree with the premise. Basically, if given the option, players will often choose the path that offers the quickest and easiest route to their chosen goal, even if that route cheapens the game and makes the overall experience lackluster. This is because we're hardwired to do that. We usually look for the quickest and easiest ways to get results.
I would add that humans tend to define themselves by the obstacles that they overcome. It builds self-pride and self-confidence, so we are happiest when we are overcoming obstacles and getting commensurate rewards, not when we are getting everything we want handed to us for no effort.
I think From is well aware of these concepts, and doesn't put easy modes in their games because of it. They want their players to have the best experience possible, because satisfied customers will buy more of their games. And to ensure that, they don't give players a path of least resistance that might tempt them and lead to them ruining their experience.
Also, you say you hate "elitism." But I would argue that what you're referring to is simply pride in achievement.
When you beat Ornstein and Smough for the first time, did you feel a sense of pride? Even a little? Because if you say no, I would have a hard time believing that, because I think it's a good bet that you got stomped on at least the first attempt in embarrassing fashion, like most people. So, assuming you did feel some pride, what's wrong with that? Did it not feel good? So what's so bad about wanting others to have that same feeling, and to protect them from the temptation to take an easy route that would likely ruin the experience for them?
It didn't help that the game doesn't describe any mechanics to you. Like unhallowing to get a buddy to help. Or being able to upgrade the number of estus flasks. Or being able to upgrade weapons. Becuase I missed all those on my first playthrough Anor Londo.
I was told it was hard. I just assumed it was this hard. Defeating them didn't give me relief. It was utterly frustrating.
I have never convinced any of my friends to play Dark Souls becuase of this moment. I make it very clear to everyone I met that From obscures everything and difficulty comes from not being taught properly. These arent hard games, they're just poorly tutorialised.
Oh I got exactly what your points were. They were just saturated with so much unintentional irony that it was a riot.Lufia Erim said:
I bring nothing of value but you still wanted to get the last word in.
gotcha.
Well, obviously not everyone is going to like it. For me, the lack of tutorial was not a big deal. I just googled, "dark souls beginner tips," and found everything I needed to know as far as basics, and without spoiling anything. There are also message boards where you can type in a question and get pretty quick answers to anything. I think the game is designed with the internet in mind.trunkage said:
"dark souls beginner tips" [https://www.google.com/search?q=dark+souls+beginner+tips&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS761US761&oq=dark+souls+beginner+tips&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.3207j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8]
That is a TERRIBLE comparison. You don't actually have to change Dark Souls' design in order to do an easy mode. This is literally all you have to do: turn down enemy damage, health, and aggression or maybe just start the player off with a maxed out set of equipment or boosted stats. That's it. That's all that's required. The player would still have to traverse the world, kill enemies, and experience boss fight, but it would way, WAY less punishing and thus lets people experience the game at their own pacehanselthecaretaker said:
The main question still remains: we live in a time where absolutely every AAA single-player game is easy as pie to the point they almost play themselves, then why must that one challenging game that is released once every blue moon be easy too? I really don't understand that entire mindset when there are so many easy games to choose from.
I also agree with that comment about the path of least resistance. It's human nature to want the quickest results for the least amount of effort. The only way to prevent this is to not have the easy option at all. And thankfully Fromsoftware understands this.
I also agree with that comment about the path of least resistance. It's human nature to want the quickest results for the least amount of effort. The only way to prevent this is to not have the easy option at all. And thankfully Fromsoftware understands this.
Since I've never played a From Software game I am expressing this from a place of ignorance, but:
I've heard enough of the phrase "git gud" to understand that the way to actually get ahead in their titles is to keep on trying until it clicks how one should go forward. The fact that the phrase is repeated tells me partially that people are having real problems and partially that it's the honestly only way to actually get ahead. If people are having real problems and that is only mitigated by trying and trying then I suspect the games would be better off with either better tutorials that explain how one is supposed to think in order to get ahead in the game or provide challenges that simplifies the process before one gets on with the more meatier challenges. I mean, Yahtzee dismissed Demon's Souls because he thought it was too hard, so it isn't as if some schmo on the culture department of a general magazine had problems; someone who actively works as a game critic thought it too challenging. He only got around to it with Dark Souls after some tutorial Let's Play-videos and some looks in the wiki; I don't consider leaving the game and looking at other players to be indicative of good game design.
I've heard enough of the phrase "git gud" to understand that the way to actually get ahead in their titles is to keep on trying until it clicks how one should go forward. The fact that the phrase is repeated tells me partially that people are having real problems and partially that it's the honestly only way to actually get ahead. If people are having real problems and that is only mitigated by trying and trying then I suspect the games would be better off with either better tutorials that explain how one is supposed to think in order to get ahead in the game or provide challenges that simplifies the process before one gets on with the more meatier challenges. I mean, Yahtzee dismissed Demon's Souls because he thought it was too hard, so it isn't as if some schmo on the culture department of a general magazine had problems; someone who actively works as a game critic thought it too challenging. He only got around to it with Dark Souls after some tutorial Let's Play-videos and some looks in the wiki; I don't consider leaving the game and looking at other players to be indicative of good game design.
We've been through this topic before. It went for pages and pages for months. Both sides were ready to die on a hill over it. And the same thing will probably happen with this thread. So I would say that both sides get emotional. The emotion of the die hard Souls fans I understand. These games are special to them. The term "fan" is derived from "fanatic" after all. But why the emotion and determination from those who obviously don't like these types of game to begin with?erttheking said:
And the Cain reference is just a story that everyone knows that I simply used as a metaphor for jealousy. I don't see it as outlandish... like I said, I am not religious, so I'm certainly not trying to invoke a higher power here.
I think most people who love the Souls games think of them quite a bit differently than they do your average time waster game. It's a test one's mettle as a gamer, and it's not meant to be relaxing and carefree. It's not Candy Crush.erttheking said:
Good for you. Glad you enjoyed it. I didn't play those games. But From Software decided to go a different route with their games, thankfully.erttheking said:
So now you're making biblical references? Ha. But yes, I agree with that as a metaphor. Zerging through a game on easy mode can certainly ruin the experience for the player, and that would be a shame.erttheking said:
I mean, I do think it is a good thing that there is a dedicated Souls community that tries to help people struggling and thus there are legitimate strategy videos and Let's Players like Epic Name Bro or A German Spy who do want to show people how to succeed. But yeah, those should be a complement to explaining the game's mechanics, not a replacementBedinsis said:
So, just to add fuel to the fireintroduce a diffrent opinion on this issue, from the same so outlet(Wow, that's possible?): https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2019/03/29/no-sekiro-shadows-die-twice-absolutely-does-not-need-an-easy-mode/
Estus upgrade is explained in the manual and online play is explained somewhat in the White Soapstone description and the manual.trunkage said:
So you never spoke to Andre, a character you have to walk past in order to reach Anor Londo, and check all of his dialogue options?
You're giving me enough straw to build an army here man. Didn't like it? Isn't the concept clearly that they like the idea but struggle to get into it? Hence my suggestion, easy mode that is still challenging?Kerg3927 said:
Yeah I know you used it as a metaphor for jealousy. It's just that using a metaphor on how someone was so jealous that he killed his brother when talking about the possibility of an easy mode in a video game is overdramatic, to say the least. Also it requires jealously to be present. It isn't. That's you imagining things and taking a video game way too seriously. And I'm gonna let you in on something. The games are special to me too. But I don't lose my shit over a suggested addition that I would never touch anyway. It's not hard.
"Test of gamer mantle." Oh please. I think Dark Souls is hard, but test of gamer mantle hard? Not even close.
My problem was not making biblical references. It was you thinking that comparing people who criticized an aspect of your game to the first murderer was somehow appropriate.
Fundamentally the argument for an easy mode is exactly the same as the one against. "I want more stuff for me." "No, I want more stuff for ME."undeadsuitor said:
They're both appeals for more for yourself. The only difference between them is that one is arguing the default should remain, and the other is arguing the default should change. Default usually wins out because inviting yourself to a party and insisting it changes is usually considered the realm of assholes .