It's the same logic that a black person can't be racist against black people, or your not racist because you have a black friend. The old uncle tom kind of thinking.Tenmar said:
Poll: Are you a feminist?
- Thread starter Moth_Monk
- Start date
I apologize, i was put in RAGE MODE, upon reading some of my fellow escapist's comments.
As someone who knows what its like, and i know im bringing that up a lot now but... i feel it adds some weight to the conversation or rather my opinion, this specific subject understandably can hit close to home. It does disturb me however to see people basically stating their disapproval for women equality. Having an opinion is one thing, but prejudice disguised as "asking questions" is not a valid opinion to hold as it is not an opinion but rather a prejudice.
I want to see us all living in a nice happy world where we can all get along, but to do so we must first stamp out the prejudice that plagues us (yes i know... colorful words...) Even on the internet, all opinions are not valid, an opinion that i know many may disagree with. Racism is not a valid opinion as it is not based on fact but rather personal misunderstandings and inbred prejudice. Likewise, sexism toward women is not a valid opinion to express anywhere, education is a must. Now obviously im not saying sexists should be shot, but they should be given a nice lecture, however i also know that, in the words of Spock, one cannot be brought to a rational conclusion if they have not reached their own conclusion based on logic.
We keep pretending its ok to say redirection things about any subject like this. And underneath every (...most... but "every" sounds more exciting) opposing sentiment is a subtext of pure sexism.
The definition of sexism is, via Wikipedia (long quote): "Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] In addition, feminism seeks to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist is "an advocate or supporter of the rights and equality of women." I hope that each and every person out there agrees with these sentiments, that women out to be equal and that they deserve an appropriately proportionate role in our society. And this "men are victimized too!!!" attitude that just translates to a MEE TOO attitude is just laced with sexism. We as men are of a privileged we cant even begin to understand, there are so many more doors open to us from birth, specifically if you happen to be white and straight. And we forget that fact and fall into a defensive mode whenever confronted with this knowledge, and for what? So we can stay special? Is it because you dont feel privileged, because you work for a living? Im sure you do, im sure you work very hard and im sure you diverse what you get, but not everyone is presented in life with the same opportunities that lead to your success.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the Y chromosome, and no feminist thinks that there is, no matter what some Conservative blogger pushes. And ya there have been a few "feminists" who have said that all men are evil. but they arnt feminists, their wrong. Feminism is about equality for all, a sentiment that i hope everyone can get behind.
Oh... and i apologize for all the typeos... its late here in Portland... though its much later out east... i resend my excuse...
As someone who knows what its like, and i know im bringing that up a lot now but... i feel it adds some weight to the conversation or rather my opinion, this specific subject understandably can hit close to home. It does disturb me however to see people basically stating their disapproval for women equality. Having an opinion is one thing, but prejudice disguised as "asking questions" is not a valid opinion to hold as it is not an opinion but rather a prejudice.
I want to see us all living in a nice happy world where we can all get along, but to do so we must first stamp out the prejudice that plagues us (yes i know... colorful words...) Even on the internet, all opinions are not valid, an opinion that i know many may disagree with. Racism is not a valid opinion as it is not based on fact but rather personal misunderstandings and inbred prejudice. Likewise, sexism toward women is not a valid opinion to express anywhere, education is a must. Now obviously im not saying sexists should be shot, but they should be given a nice lecture, however i also know that, in the words of Spock, one cannot be brought to a rational conclusion if they have not reached their own conclusion based on logic.
We keep pretending its ok to say redirection things about any subject like this. And underneath every (...most... but "every" sounds more exciting) opposing sentiment is a subtext of pure sexism.
The definition of sexism is, via Wikipedia (long quote): "Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] In addition, feminism seeks to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist is "an advocate or supporter of the rights and equality of women." I hope that each and every person out there agrees with these sentiments, that women out to be equal and that they deserve an appropriately proportionate role in our society. And this "men are victimized too!!!" attitude that just translates to a MEE TOO attitude is just laced with sexism. We as men are of a privileged we cant even begin to understand, there are so many more doors open to us from birth, specifically if you happen to be white and straight. And we forget that fact and fall into a defensive mode whenever confronted with this knowledge, and for what? So we can stay special? Is it because you dont feel privileged, because you work for a living? Im sure you do, im sure you work very hard and im sure you diverse what you get, but not everyone is presented in life with the same opportunities that lead to your success.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the Y chromosome, and no feminist thinks that there is, no matter what some Conservative blogger pushes. And ya there have been a few "feminists" who have said that all men are evil. but they arnt feminists, their wrong. Feminism is about equality for all, a sentiment that i hope everyone can get behind.
Oh... and i apologize for all the typeos... its late here in Portland... though its much later out east... i resend my excuse...
Tenmar said:
My point being, and one that either went over your head or defeated your line of reasoning, was that its quite hard for someone... like me... to be this made up word.
Oh, and dont pull that debate cop-out "oh, im going to overreact now to deflect attention toward you!" its rather easy to see through.
Oh, and dont pull that debate cop-out "oh, im going to overreact now to deflect attention toward you!" its rather easy to see through.
Tenmar said:
I'm not planning on responding to him further, but you seemed completely shocked when he brought his sexuality into it, so I figured I'd explain why he'd bring it up like this, I've seen that kind of thing before after allTenmar said:
I'm trying to stay out of it now, but it's hard to ignore
really... some ad-laden website from the neather is your source...?
Wikipedia is so much better!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
anyhoo... i bring up my sexuality to shed light upon where my understanding comes from, and because being called a word that, no matter what the internet asserts, makes wavy red lines appear underneath it, is an assertion that would be counter to my orientation.
As well, no actual dictionary has it, or as far as i can find, and Wikipedia is not a dictionary but rather a reference sight, which can define made up words.
Wikipedia is so much better!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
anyhoo... i bring up my sexuality to shed light upon where my understanding comes from, and because being called a word that, no matter what the internet asserts, makes wavy red lines appear underneath it, is an assertion that would be counter to my orientation.
As well, no actual dictionary has it, or as far as i can find, and Wikipedia is not a dictionary but rather a reference sight, which can define made up words.
Jiggy said:
Well the people here do make the laws, if their in America, they Vote. And feminism isnt really loaded, its been twisted by its dissenters, sadly effectively, and it saddens me that so many are unable to at least embrace it in some way. And weather or not you identify with feminism is aside the point, it weather you agree with its philosophies. And i hope most people, or rather all, do agree. But many MANY people out there have fallen into this sad mindset of feminism having any negative connotation to it.
As well, I CANT BELIEVE THAT YOU SEXIST MOTHER... im just kidding... i liked your video!
As well, I CANT BELIEVE THAT YOU SEXIST MOTHER... im just kidding... i liked your video!
Tenmar said:
You know, I thought so too at first. But apparently this woman once wrote "*****" on her daughter's forehead and threatened to kill her, so it looks like she's a genuine crazy.Jiggy said:
Captcha: sudo make sandwich. Dafuq?
Nah. In reality, there is no baggage or loaded concept that comes with the word. These people simply are sexist and cannot handle women having equal rights. This is why they pretend there is baggage with the word.
When in reality, it's just butthurt men insisting that it's bad.
This is intellectually dishonest. An average man and an average woman are somewhat different. The same is true for every group of men being different from other groups of men.
In fact, men from different groups are, on average, more different than men are, on average, different from other women. The problem is that people like you don't understand this.
So, yes, men and women are different. And men and other men are also different. Clinging to the "they're different!" as if it had merit doesn't get you anywhere, sorry. Humans generally are very different from other humans. DUH.
This proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. For one, the wage gap is generally existing for people with the exact same job, so some random nonsense you made up about what jobs women take doesn't exactly help your point.
Furthermore, it's a completely idiotic argument, because wage has nothing to do with the job being dangerous or undesirable. The jobs that are, by far, the most well paid also tend to be completely lacking in dangerousness.
This is because of misogyny, actually: If you keep pushing that women should be caregivers and not men, then yes, the opposite effect is that men don't get to be. This is pretty much the consequence of misogyny. The solution here? More equality. If caregiving is not automatically a woman's job, then men would not be shat on so much there.
Proof: Scandinavic countries. The less sexism a country has, the better men stand if they want to take family time. Simple fact. IN fact: This issue is evidence for sexism in general.
Once we are at a point where nobody will give a damn if a guy stays home to take care of kids because it doesn't matter and their gender doesn't play into it, then sexism is probably over.
Until then, it's not.
Actually, this isn't true. There are many crimes where women get harsher sentences.
Murder, for example. If a man kills his wife "because she cheated", he will get a lot less jailtime than if a woman kills her husband because "he cheated". There's actually legal precedent for this in Britain, and it hasn't been challenged yet (because, lets face it, people don't exactly care about the rights of wife-killers or husband-killers).
Factually, you are wrong. Again.
Actually, you're proved that we still have a long way to go. It's far from done.
Equal rights doesn't mean "men have it easier nearly everywhere, but the difference isn't AS big anymore, so we can call it a day!"
It means actually equal rights. That means that men and women can pick any task based on their individual capability and not get into trouble for it/get equal pay.
This includes, for example, men raising kids, if they so want. This also includes both genders being taken serious when making a complaint about rape. As serious as, say, a complaint about getting your car stolen.
Not the case right now, despite false car theft reports being a lot more common than fake rape reports.
By this logic, wouldn't it be okay to hate all men because a few men are insane douchebags?
Wait, you'll say - not all men are like that, so that'd be bad!
Yes. And the same goes for feminists. I'm one, and I have never seen one of these supposed feminazis in real life, nor in online communities. I have never heard anyone utter the wish to "wipe out" or "castrate" men, nor have I ever observed any "women are better than men".
In fact, the ONLY people I have seen saying the "women are better" were men on 4chan.
Who aren't known for feminism.
On the other hand, despite not being in many male-focused groups, I have seen dozens of rape-threat campaigns against women (some of which with thousands of men joining in to try to silence a single woman - takes women vs tropes, which STILL has buttdevastated men bashing her with lies), have seen hundreds of threats of physical violence against feminists IRL, and have seen these threats being carried out.
I have far more a leg to stand on if I wanted to say "all men are assholes" or "men are bad". I don't say it. Why do you think is it more okay to say "feminism is bad" based on... a single crazy blogger who is probably a troll or actually clinically insane?
I may of been responding to someone else when i quoted those stats... let me check... yup, i may of been on a tare there for a bit... oops... perhaps the intended target received the message?
And im using Chrome thank you very much, i never touch this Firefox thing you speak of
But, as i said before, you dont get to make up a word and pretend like its real because you want it to be, and you certainly dont get to pretend like this made up word is actually happening in that crazy place we call the real world!
Stoner... stoner... you wavy lines... Truthyness... damn, i was hoping that one was real... Feminist... hey, that one has no lines...
And im using Chrome thank you very much, i never touch this Firefox thing you speak of
But, as i said before, you dont get to make up a word and pretend like its real because you want it to be, and you certainly dont get to pretend like this made up word is actually happening in that crazy place we call the real world!
Stoner... stoner... you wavy lines... Truthyness... damn, i was hoping that one was real... Feminist... hey, that one has no lines...
Father Time said:I never said feminism automatically makes you sexist, I said there are sexist feminists, and I never said you were one. If you really want a source then I can find some people who call themselves feminists who bluntly state that they hate men.moopig66 said:oh... no reference... sad face, and here i was hoping that you would reciprocate with a source that proved your point instead of deflecting the argument...
Asserting ones independence and equality is not sexism, its fair. I strongly support gay rights as someone directly affected by the outcome of said legislation, does this mean that im "hetrophobic"?
Stoner produces red lines underneath too. We don't base what's real and what's not on firefox spellcheck. And I've seen a few people online (a few as in I can count them on one hand) who say they hate straight people, but if you're honestly worried about them effecting your life then you're paranoid.moopig66 said:
And I don't know why you're giving me stats about domestic abuse seeing as how I never brought it up, so I'm just going to ignore it.
Yes, lots of things are older than me, like sexism... and homophobia... and racism...
How am i making up definitions?? Have you seen the man going their own way forum?
I have not once in my existence met anyone who hates men, they might not like the power they assert over them, they may not like their self appointed lordship over women, they may even avoid men as much as possible, but they dont hate men. And ive met MANY MANY far left liberals, im in Oregon after all.
How am i making up definitions?? Have you seen the man going their own way forum?
I have not once in my existence met anyone who hates men, they might not like the power they assert over them, they may not like their self appointed lordship over women, they may even avoid men as much as possible, but they dont hate men. And ive met MANY MANY far left liberals, im in Oregon after all.
Father Time said:
Wrong. Thanks for proving that you have no clue what you're talking about.
The things you call petty are hardly petty. If you had any idea whatsoever about sociology or how the human brain works - or how humans learn things when they grow up, and internalize them- you wouldn't write such complete nonsense.
These things matter a *lot*. You just don't really understand this because you are used to being catered to at all times, and are unwilling to look past your own situation.
Facts aren't propaganda. You chose to ignore the proof there is, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
You're just like a flat earther ignoring actual photos of the planet. I am sorry that you are butthurt about actual science proving this concept over, and over, and over. It must be hard to argue against science.
I personally couldn't really do it. I like the scientific approach too much, but it must be nice to live like you, ignoring facts, and just going along with your pre-concieved beliefs that you never question.