Skyward Sword

[reachforthesky]

The Escapist really baffles me some times. I can't count how many of Yahtzee's videos or articles contain some sort of dig at what the fanboys will say in response. They are always fat and nerdy and spewing frothy liquids from their mounths, and are of course, retarted. Then I read the comments and everyone is having a big fun wank over how the fanboys will be getting out their pitchforks and torches and how dumb and aggressive they are. Then I thumb through the pages and find almost no defense for whatever game Yahtzee insulted this time, and certainly nobody mentioning the arguments he pointed out. Oh sure, there is the occasional "well-I-kind-of-disagree-but-I-would-never-go-against-the-great-Yahtzee" meek little wimper but certainly none of the violent half-literate garbage You guys claim to have to constantly defend yourself from. Do I have some kind of filter turned on that I don't see the repetitive raging nutjob posts everyone always talks about? I know it's hip to act persecuted but you aren't fooling anybody.

unrelated note: Occupy Wall Street will never accomplish anything because everything bout it, from their grievances to their demands, are so vague that nobody knows what to do(i.e. exactly the kind of result you should expect when a bunch of leaderless hippies with nothing better to do try to accomplish anything.)

 

[Mirrorknight]

Well...Nintendo can't win. If they don't put just enough new into one of their games (for example, Mario Sunshine), they get bashed for not being original. However, if they go to far the other way and change the game too much, even just graphic wise (for example, Majora's Mask or Wind Waker) they get bashed by the same number of people (sometimes the same people) for changing it too much.

So in order to make the most amount of people happy, they're forced to just make incremental changes to their games. Of course, you'll still have people that will ***** about it, but you can't make everyone happy.

Yes, sometimes they can make a radical change and actually have people be on board for it (Metroid Prime. A 3-D Metroid game?! Scandalous. But Retro got it to work.) but it has to do everything right that it needs to do in order for people to like it. What happens when it doesn't? You get the state the current Final Fantasy games are in now.

Frankly, I liked the game. It told a decent story. Zelda wasn't totally emotionaless this time around, as Yhatzee pointed out. While she wasn't as awesome as Tetra/Zelda, she had some charm. Hell, she was even kinda flirty, even if it was in a "I'm just teasing, I'm actually going to push you off a cliff" kind of way.

As far as motion controls...pfft. If you can't get past the electric swords, you must be whipping that remote around like an over-zealous flag waver. It really isn't hard to fake out the bokoblins out. Yes, yes. You hate motion controls, I get it. I'm no fan either. I'm glad that it appears that it's going to die out with this generation of games. It wasn't a deal breaker for me though. Besides, you get one good hit in, and you just alternate slashing directions, and they can't block. Not. Hard. I understand disliking motion controls, but Yahtzee's hatred for it is almost as irrational as my hatred for Will Farrel, may he burn in a thousand hells. Pretty much any Wii game he reviews is going to have a strike against it without even really doing anything but have the misfortune of being on the Wii.

Now, I agree that their wasn't enough to the sky area. I defiantly would've like more of a reason to go riding around on my bird. However, I wouldn't want to have it like Wind Waker. I only have two gripes about that game. One of which is the stupid amount of time it takes to get anywhere. Yes, I know that's kind of the point, to have it be a vast sea. The problem? Sailing on a vast sea is frigging BORING. I would have liked to have the sky area be expansive like Wind Waker, but way more engaging. Instead, we got small and somehow less engaging.

Mostly total agreement on Fi, though. I tried to be sad when she got sealed, but all I could think of was good riddance. Still would have to say Navi is still slightly more annoying, though. Fi just beeps when she wants something. Which is much better then HEY LISTEN! HEY LISTEN! HEY LISTEN! HELLO? HEY LISTEN! ... I miss Midna. Or, hell, I'll take Tatl at this point.

Also enjoyed that the game is actually hard in points. Sure, it's no Link to the Past, but I actually saw the game over screen normally! Pretty much every Zelda since Ocarina, I had to PURPOSELY die to see it. This one, I actually died a few times. Some of dungeons were actually a bit tricky (screw you Goddess keep. Seriously). This makes me happy. (and no, it wasn't because I fighting the motion controls).

It's a solid Zelda game. I liked it. Nothing I say is going to change Yahtzee's mind, and nothing I say is going to change his. Is it the bestest Zelda game evers? Hell no. I still give that to Link to the Past, and it's going take an awful lot for a new Zelda game to even come close to that lofty perch.

 

[DarthFennec]

I agree with you on most of this, but I don't really see how you figure this game is the worst Zelda game ever. It's certainly not worse than Twilight Princess, and it's not anywhere near as terrible as Phantom Hourglass. I think Skyward Sword is definitely one of the better Zelda games out there, right behind Wind Waker and Majora's Mask.

Yeah, the stupid supporting character got on my nerves like hell but so did Navi and I still consider Ocarina of Time to be one of the best games ever. Yeah there was a lot of stupid pointless padding, but every time I noticed any of it my reaction wasn't `oh my god not more of this shit', but rather `oh my god this padding is so much less ridiculously annoying and pointless than that of Okamiden'. Yeah it got annoying when I had to go back to the fucking sky every time I wanted to get to another part of the map, but it's not as if it felt small ... to me, the world felt enormous, so enormous in fact that they had to split it up into three separate regions. There was quite a lot of exploration involved, and there was certainly an open world element to it, even if it was partially restricted by the three sections thing. At least there are only three, rather than about fifty like in Wind Waker.

Also, I thought the motion controls in this game were some of the best I've seen on the Wii. While it does get rather annoying when it doesn't register a swing until a split second too late and you get fucking electrocuted over and over, and I have to spend five minutes trying to hold it at precisely the right angle of `straight up' so that the game will recognize that I'm trying to charge a Skyward Strike, the controls were still very fluid for the most part, and I enjoyed the challenge that came with calculating the correct angle to swing at that you just don't get when sitting there mashing the B button as fast as you can. Flying felt great, as did controlling the beetle, and the sword motions were pretty good as well; I was surprised at the very small handful of times where it did something I didn't really want it to do. The only thing I didn't care for was swimming, if only because you had to switch from one control scheme to another without any real reason for it, and I found myself trying to swim with the stick and wondering why it wasn't responding in the way it was supposed to.

As for the dungeons, I personally adored all of them that used the timeshift stone mechanic, especially the pirate ship, and I also loved the final dungeon on Skyloft, but all the rest of them weren't half bad, not any worse than any of the Ocarina of Time dungeons. The whip was actually used in quite a few places, as it was basically exactly the same thing as the grappling hook from Wind Waker and I was surprised they didn't just call it that. It was nowhere near as phoned in as that stupid gear thing from Twilight Princess. And the Beetle was just so damn useful that it almost made up for any imperfections with any of the other items.

Other than that, it had a lot of great sidequests and side characters, which was my favorite thing about Majora's Mask and I was ecstatic to see that they did just as good a job of it here. I liked the item upgrade system, I liked the running and climbing, I liked that they brought back the bug net, I liked the item simplification (that you can pick up bombs from bomb flowers or bombs you've already set and store them in your bag, enemy arrows, etc), I liked the silent realms a whole lot, it was just a really well put together game I thought. There are definitely things wrong with it (namely, everything you stated), but to me those things weren't really a dealbreaker, or rather, they weren't very important or worth mentioning at all for that matter. Small problems that don't really get in the way of an otherwise wonderful experience.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

Some might call me a heretic,but that's is my opinion so I'm going to write it anyway.
Zelda games do feel somewhat shamey in the bad way either we like it or not,and I think that because of that it's about time to see a complete start over of the series.
Nintendo should sit down and think how the next Zelda game will be,starting from zero,like they did when they decided to jump in to 3d gameplay back in the N64 days.A reboot.

I don't know how Nintendo is going to do that,but I will write some ways of how I would do that,just to give you a taste of my belief and taste.

*Z targeting was a great mechanic back in 1998 when Ocarina of Time brought it.But it's been 14 years since then.Other action games have managed to provide more direct combat mechanics since then,just play a bit of Assassin's Creed or Prince of Persia.Combat should be one of the things that I think should be more streamlined,and by streamlined I don't mean to be dumbed down or motion controls.I believe that the steps a player has to take to engage in combat should be less,so the player can focus more in the actual combat than initiating the mechanics of the game.

*It's been more than 5 years that games have a feature called "dynamic music".Let's see than in a new Zelda please.Let's give a rest to the ancient music system where there is one song for each level/area of the game and that's it,and lets see music themes changing on the fly depending on the player's actions.

*Some will say it is crazy,others that it's not franchise friendly but when I played Twilight Princess the fact that all characters (well except Midna) where mute,distracted me from my immersion experience I was having,as I had to watch mute characters making groans and slowly read screen text.Midna's dialogues (even though they where gibberish and didn't meant anything in any language) gave me the impression that Zelda games CAN have voice overs,and that the experience we would have from the game if more characters had a voice,would be better.
If I was the lead designer of Zelda,everybody in the game would have a voice except Link.
The SNES and N64 days where cartidges had so limited space they couldn't fit voices is long gone.Link is the blank hero where everyone can project himself/herself so I agree that giving him a voice isn't required and could even break it for many players.But for everyone else,it feels that if they had voice overs their personalities would shine more,and the immersion we get with the game would be huge.And I would also change how written dialogue text works.Let there be subtitles,but don't force them to the player!Let the player choose if he will read all this,and how fast he will do.Let whole phrases appear instantly,and let the player skip them if he likes, and don't force the player to watch every single letter of a word pop up.

*Larger.That's right larger! I would like the next Zelda game to be orders of magnitute larger.Let it have a larger world to explore,more side-quests,more collectible items and more dungeons.When Skyrim has 150 dungeons and 400 quests Zelda should be on its league. And it doesn't have to be an RPG game to have more content.I don't say that Zelda should copy Skyrim's gameplay,not at all.I'm saying that Zelda should have an amount of content comparable to Skyrim.Who wouldn't like it if Zelda's main quest had like 15 unique dungeons,but there where like another 50 or more dungeons for Link to explore when he is not bothered with the main quest ?And what if Link could ignore the main quest for a while to do side-quests as he did on Majora's Mask,but with there be like 10 times more side quests than Majora's Mask ?
Since Zelda games doesn't come so often as we would like,at least when we eventually get a new one,it should have enough content to keep as more time playing.Skyward Sword was developed in 5 years.Skyrim was developed in 3 years.So Nintendo hire some more more people to work for the next Zelda,because the Time of Development/Content ratio you have is very bad.

*We have to see a better written,deeper,fresher story.The pattern "person X kidnaps person Y and person A has to save it" have become cliche.Change it for once,or at least add more into it.Examples?Let Link meet Zelda for once without that being for the sole purpose of saving her.And let it be that when he meets her,it isn't the first time they meet again as in all other games.Perhaps they already know each other and are friends.And perhaps Zelda would be willing to travel along with Link as a companion,so they team up to travel to a place to fight a great evil or open some kind of magic temple door that needs both of them to be done.Make Zelda more important than just being there to be saved.And bring some overturns in the scenario.



I wanted to write more examples of ideas but time is a beast chasing me and I have to stop now.I'll be back to this thread in some hours after to check out.

 

[deus-ex-machina]

I am about to open Skyward Sword for the first time today so I can't criticise the Yahtzee's opinion but I did find the video funny. I've played all the console Zelda games since Link To The Past on SNES and I played Link's Awakening on the original Gameboy. I'm a big fan of the series, but obviously I've missed out on a lot of good games on the GBs over the years. I've enjoyed them all for different reasons, but I love the Gerudos and Twinrova the most. Instant win when they appear and I get the impression they might not be in this game, which makes me a sad panda.

 

[Mahoshonen]

The Escapist really baffles me some times. I can't count how many of Yahtzee's videos or articles contain some sort of dig at what the fanboys will say in response. They are always fat and nerdy and spewing frothy liquids from their mounths, and are of course, retarted. Then I read the comments and everyone is having a big fun wank over how the fanboys will be getting out their pitchforks and torches and how dumb and aggressive they are. Then I thumb through the pages and find almost no defense for whatever game Yahtzee insulted this time, and certainly nobody mentioning the arguments he pointed out. Oh sure, there is the occasional "well-I-kind-of-disagree-but-I-would-never-go-against-the-great-Yahtzee" meek little wimper but certainly none of the violent half-literate garbage You guys claim to have to constantly defend yourself from. Do I have some kind of filter turned on that I don't see the repetitive raging nutjob posts everyone always talks about? I know it's hip to act persecuted but you aren't fooling anybody.

unrelated note: Occupy Wall Street will never accomplish anything because everything bout it, from their grievances to their demands, are so vague that nobody knows what to do(i.e. exactly the kind of result you should expect when a bunch of leaderless hippies with nothing better to do try to accomplish anything.)

Have you not read this thread?? There are not a few fanboys who have been acting butthurt that Yahtzee doesn't like their precious series. And this is just one thread on one forum. Go to any review site that did not give SS a perfect score, and you will find fans that are enraged that someone else doesn't believe their game is perfecct.

Seriously, at this point, Nintendo fanboys would defend this company even if it was caught hiding a child sex ring.

 

[Nate-ndo]

The Escapist really baffles me some times. I can't count how many of Yahtzee's videos or articles contain some sort of dig at what the fanboys will say in response. They are always fat and nerdy and spewing frothy liquids from their mounths, and are of course, retarted. Then I read the comments and everyone is having a big fun wank over how the fanboys will be getting out their pitchforks and torches and how dumb and aggressive they are. Then I thumb through the pages and find almost no defense for whatever game Yahtzee insulted this time, and certainly nobody mentioning the arguments he pointed out. Oh sure, there is the occasional "well-I-kind-of-disagree-but-I-would-never-go-against-the-great-Yahtzee" meek little wimper but certainly none of the violent half-literate garbage You guys claim to have to constantly defend yourself from. Do I have some kind of filter turned on that I don't see the repetitive raging nutjob posts everyone always talks about? I know it's hip to act persecuted but you aren't fooling anybody.

unrelated note: Occupy Wall Street will never accomplish anything because everything bout it, from their grievances to their demands, are so vague that nobody knows what to do(i.e. exactly the kind of result you should expect when a bunch of leaderless hippies with nothing better to do try to accomplish anything.)

Have you not read this thread?? There are not a few fanboys who have been acting butthurt that Yahtzee doesn't like their precious series. And this is just one thread on one forum. Go to any review site that did not give SS a perfect score, and you will find fans that are enraged that someone else doesn't believe their game is perfecct.

Seriously, at this point, Nintendo fanboys would defend this company even if it was caught hiding a child sex ring.

The vast majority of this thread is people agreeing with Yahtzee, which is statistically significant because SS has a meta score in the 90s (ie near universal acclaim).

 

[Nate-ndo]

While it is impossible for the controls to be as bad as Yahtzee/GameSpot/etc claim and still have the majority of players/reviewers say they work near flawlessly, it's entirely possible for the controls to work near flawlessly but have a handful of players that merely suck at using them and blame the controls and not the operator. I don't think it's impossible to believe that there are a number of gamers who lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination to be successful with motion controls.

Yes, that's right, I'm going there. It's the only explanation that reconciles the differences other than claiming that the majority is simply lying about their experiences.

 

[Mangue Surfer]

I put the blame on serious critics. Almost everyone has the same opinion on famous games like Uncharted, Zelda or Elder Scroll that any disagreement will be considered as a crack in the very fabric of reality.

 

[bjj hero]

The problem with that is it's anecdotal evidence.

I've played the game. I have no problem with the precision or timing of the controls. My sword is held where I want it to be hold. I attack from the direction that I want and it happens when I want it to happen. Any lag that may exist has never negatively impacted my gameplay to the point where I think it's a legitimate flaw.

And yet there are still people who insist that the controls in any motion game don't work the way they want. I don't have anyway to disprove that because my satisfaction is all from personal experience. It's a hard topic to discuss.

We are not talking 10 hit combos or tekken multi throws though. We are talking about moving your arm from left to right. This is something we can all do(with the exception of those with disabilities) without thinking but so many people are struggling with it using motion control. At that point the controller needs looking at. It should be done with the ease of pressing A.

Thats why I'm not sold on motion controls. Ive tried them a few times (except for the PS3 version, I don't know anyone with it) and found them unresponsive. When I play on a controller I know pressing the button provides a reaction, any noticable delay is poor programming and interface. Is the delay on motion controls the peripheral or the programming? So its not like "really doing it" so Ill use the more responsive controller.

Im not some caveman with co-ordination issues, Ive done over 10 years of martial arts, play guitar and am quite handy on none motion control games.

Now, what would get me playing motion controls? (we can all say what we dont like). K-1 kickboxing on connect, but this will not happen. I doubt the system could follow anyone with any hand speed, most people cannot throw head kicks and dont have the stamina play more than 2 minutes at a time.

On second thoughts the wi mote could make a good flight stick for flight sims/ace combat etc. Makes me wonder why this hasn't been exploited yet.

 

[Mahoshonen]

While it is impossible for the controls to be as bad as Yahtzee/GameSpot/etc claim and still have the majority of players/reviewers say they work near flawlessly, it's entirely possible for the controls to work near flawlessly but have a handful of players that merely suck at using them and blame the controls and not the operator. I don't think it's impossible to believe that there are a number of gamers who lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination to be successful with motion controls.

Yes, that's right, I'm going there. It's the only explanation that reconciles the differences other than claiming that the majority is simply lying about their experiences.

Wow. So people that have played shooters and platforms successfully on other systems now "lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination" to play wii games. That is probably the most absurd explaination I've ever heard.

I have a different theory: You have cognitive disonance and are ready to excuse and ignore any flaw because it's easier than admitting your tribe is not the best that's out there.

I'm not just talking out of my ass. I bought into the excitement for Master of Orion 3, a game now universally considered so bad it killed the franchise. I bought the game on release and for 2-3 weeks I was convinced that it was the greatest game of all time. Eventually, the flaws were so obvious I just couldn't ignore them (or more accurately, I stopped playing for a while and realized I had absolutely no desire to start playing again).

Now, MoO3 is an undead fetus next to Skyward Sword, so that's not the comparison I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the human brain will go to great lengths to justify, excuse, and ignore any fact that contradicts what it has beforehand established as a fundamental truth.

Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolution," explores the phenomenon in greater detail, but it's the basis for why people hold onto opinions that in hindsight seem irrational. It's why a man as brilliant as Einstein could refuse to accept Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle because "God does not play dice."

 

[Reagle]

Just made an account to say though I enjoyed SS, all of Yahtzee's points are valid and are the worst parts of the game. The motion controls are not 1 to 1. They just aren't. And when you're punished for mistakes made not by you but the system itself, it's a flaw in the system.

Though I didn't feel so bad about the backtracking while I was playing, in hindsight there certainly was a lot.

What most of it boils down to is a person's bullshit tolerance. I'm able to overlook some bad game design if I ultimately am having fun in other areas. SS is not the best Zelda ever. It's, well hell, one of the worst. Though in a series with so many great entries, it's not hard to be one of the worse ones.

 

[BishopofAges]

I happen to agree with one side of this arguement (this has dissolved into such again, right?) I did enjoy Skyward Sword to the fullest and felt it was worth my money to play and for my friends to play. We did make fun of certain highlighted aspects of it, and had a good time doing so.

However, like the opposing side I also agree with what he had pointed out, I did feel the game world was small, the sword a minor annoyance, but that was mostly fixed by reading her vocals in a hilariously cynical voice. I did like that they at least switched up the retreading, like having all your items stolen, place flooded etc.

This all togather I can say, yes I agree with Yahtzee, but also yes I did have a hell of a lot of fun with it. Play on you colorful oil-slick rainbow of gamers that we are, all diverse in our opinions and options.

 

[Sovvolf]

Now, what would get me playing motion controls? (we can all say what we dont like). K-1 kickboxing on connect, but this will not happen. I doubt the system could follow anyone with any hand speed, most people cannot throw head kicks and dont have the stamina play more than 2 minutes at a time.

That and well, I don't know if you've noticed this if you have a kinect but they system really as trouble registering any leg movement that goes above the waist. Trust me, as a fellow martial artist one of the first things I did when I got full control of the avatar was to start kicking some shapes. However, throwing kicks (specially those that go above the waist) just sent the thing bonkers. Like the avatar imploding and stuff.

I managed an awkward looking leg kick and a front kick but anything head high just won't work. You might be forgiven for thinking that its strictly limited to just the avatar movements but after playing a few kinect games, including the fitness game that had cardio boxing (which was more kickboxing, though never attended a boxercize class so maybe it is kickboxing) and even the MMA fitness game, there was no head kicks. My theory is that the system reads movement above the waist as arm movement and below that as legs so when your legs get above that area... The system gets confused.

So I doubt a K1 game would work out well sadly. Maybe a boxing game, haven't played one of those yet on the kinect so can't judge.

 

[CopperBoom]

Is it possible to completely agree with this and still like the game?

If that is your opinion, you are entitled to it.
Let no one never take that from you.

 

[Zetsubou^-^]

i definitely don't like Fi. I would gladly vote her most intolerable helper. midna didn't give advice, and navi was belligerent, but Fi is standalone worst.

i suppose i won't defend the game world being smaller, although to counter yahtzee's point windwaker and twilight princess both had problems with the amount of bigness, filling it, and letting you go where you wanted early on. i love both games though.
my hope is that skyward sword is limited only because they were testing out so many new mechanics in it. ideally i would like something that has bigness equivalent to content and a fast way to travel across it, especially if it's big. it's a shame you can't travel between surface portions, but i think its part of the story. the world is not connected because part of it is up in the sky

motion controls can be a little iffy if you were holding it weird when you started something, but overall i'd say there wasn't alot of time between me swinging and link swinging. i expected a lot of motion control in this game, and even if it has a few kinks, i still think its probably the best hack and slash controls at this point, with mp3:corruption or resident evil 4 having the best shooting. i haven't played far because my wii is out of commission, but i had little trouble with the sword or flying. i can't say i hate motion controls entirely, because things like the bow and hookshot were horrible to use with standard controls.

Skyward sword is the marrying of a lot of zelda elements from past games. i like the windwaker-esque design mixed with twilight princess graphics. i like the shift to a more intelligent combat system that relies on observation and input, and i like that it punishes you for messing up. its a shame its not perfect, but i didn't expect it to be. i like the expressive characters and monsters, and the way the game expands on link's personality.

 

[bjj hero]

one of the first things I did when I got full control of the avatar was to start kicking some shapes. However, throwing kicks (specially those that go above the waist) just sent the thing bonkers. Like the avatar imploding and stuff.

I can imagine they didnt consider programming in something that 80% of their audience couldnt physically do. I dont have connect, although I can see a big incentive being watching your avatar throw spin kicks, alas it was not meant to be.

 

[chronobreak]

Erm, what happened to Zero Punctuation?

 

[scorptatious]

I find it odd how so many people are having issues with the controls. I never had too much of an issue with them. Have you guys made sure to position your motion sensors properly?

 

[Zetsubou^-^]

its there, its just not on the home page anymore. you gotta go to videos and pick zp, then the episode you want.