Veganism...why?
- Thread starter Secret world leader (shhh)
- Start date
I've been vegetarian for about a year now.
Why I don't go vegan is because it's ridiculously impractical when you consider the amount of effort put into it. Consuming milk doesn't necessarily imply suffering on the animal's part. It's up to the consumers and suppliers to change the way domestic livestock are treated. boycotting all milk doesn't directly solve that problem, it would just put all dairy out of business if it were successful.
Meat on the other hand, there's no way to make it suffering-free unless you wait around for the animal to die of old age (and get really tough and flavorless) and snag the corpse up before it goes bad. The responsibility here is placed on the consumer to reject the meat outright. I hear this one guy is trying to grow artificial meat, but until that comes around it's veggie burgers for me.
And in any case, being a vegan is REALLY REALLY HARD, and I've met a few vegans. Finding anything vegetarian to eat on a restaurant menu pretty much limits you to 3 choices if you're lucky, but being vegan means you almost can't eat anything. Everything has milk or eggs in it. It's ridiculous. Anyway cheese is one of my primary sources of protein and flavor. If I had to eat mostly salad I would probably have poor nutrition and mental health in about a month.
Have you tried vegan mac and cheese? DONT, it's HORRIBLE. It's like someone has desperately tried to flavor nut tar and then threw in chopped bits of plastic tubing.
Why I don't go vegan is because it's ridiculously impractical when you consider the amount of effort put into it. Consuming milk doesn't necessarily imply suffering on the animal's part. It's up to the consumers and suppliers to change the way domestic livestock are treated. boycotting all milk doesn't directly solve that problem, it would just put all dairy out of business if it were successful.
Meat on the other hand, there's no way to make it suffering-free unless you wait around for the animal to die of old age (and get really tough and flavorless) and snag the corpse up before it goes bad. The responsibility here is placed on the consumer to reject the meat outright. I hear this one guy is trying to grow artificial meat, but until that comes around it's veggie burgers for me.
And in any case, being a vegan is REALLY REALLY HARD, and I've met a few vegans. Finding anything vegetarian to eat on a restaurant menu pretty much limits you to 3 choices if you're lucky, but being vegan means you almost can't eat anything. Everything has milk or eggs in it. It's ridiculous. Anyway cheese is one of my primary sources of protein and flavor. If I had to eat mostly salad I would probably have poor nutrition and mental health in about a month.
Have you tried vegan mac and cheese? DONT, it's HORRIBLE. It's like someone has desperately tried to flavor nut tar and then threw in chopped bits of plastic tubing.
Well, Daystar, as a vegetarian, I may be able to add at least some insight with my own personal views, which you didn't ask for and more than likely don't even want! (insert friendly but cagey grin here)Daystar Clarion said:
Basically, for me, meat just doesn't sit well. Not sure why. Didn't like the taste or indigestion, so I stick to stuff that doesn't have meat. I'm not going to pretend that my diet kills less animals: Cows, chickens, pigs, etc., get killed every single day, and my eating french fries doesn't prevent the Big Macs. That sort of mindset is just stupid.
Besides, if you eat meat, good on ya! More for you. Its just not my thing. Like... Real Time Strategy games, or Dog Ownership. They may not be my thing, but I won't say they're bad at all, no sir!
Animals can't suffer if they don't exist, so what the hell is "more suffering" supposed to mean?boyvirgo666 said:
I'm not sure if anyone would be out of work, since a global switchover to vegan food would require the same mass of food to be produced, it would just all be plants. Of course, you still might see millions of people out of work, but if so that would be because it's a more efficient way to produce food, which is a good thing.
"Kills less animals" can be extended to "causes less animal suffering". The killing itself doesn't cause much suffering (unless it's halal), and there are probably more problems with the animal's experiences elsewhere in its life of captivity.Daystar Clarion said:
I'm not sure if PETA represent anyone except psychopaths.
Yeah, you got me there, in most cases we do take away the calf. Though that's more for practical purposes than anything else. The milk form a cow that recently gave birth is full of hormones and I think it might be higher in fat and a little thicker than the milk of other cows. The milk is either given to the calf or discarded.Odgical said:
However you are right that there's a lot of things wrong in the way animals are treated in order to get more meat and more milk. Bad hygiene, conditions, treatment and ways to cut corners. I grew up on a farm and my dad is still a farmer so I guess that is why I care so much about the conditions the animals have to live with. I guess if I lived anywhere else the idea of becoming a vegan would be more tempting.
First of all, we're not adhering to what you consider a duty to keep other species in check when we're deliberately making more for the express purpose of eating them. So that argument kind of falls apart from the beginning.
Unless you're implying that the environmental impact we have, have had, and will have is our purpose, which is disconcerting but entirely plausible. Of course, that was probably just me being grim.
Anyway. I frankly find veganism to be completely absurd and hypocritical, come up with by a group of people who, for the most part, are doing it just for the sake of their self-opinions, and/or to lower those of others. Indeed, most such movements are expressly for that purpose; morality is merely the reasoning given.
However, I'd like to think that many of them genuinely mean well and just can't think of another way to go about it. On paper, it's fine; "be nice to animals". In practice is where the silliness lies.
Unless you're implying that the environmental impact we have, have had, and will have is our purpose, which is disconcerting but entirely plausible. Of course, that was probably just me being grim.
Anyway. I frankly find veganism to be completely absurd and hypocritical, come up with by a group of people who, for the most part, are doing it just for the sake of their self-opinions, and/or to lower those of others. Indeed, most such movements are expressly for that purpose; morality is merely the reasoning given.
However, I'd like to think that many of them genuinely mean well and just can't think of another way to go about it. On paper, it's fine; "be nice to animals". In practice is where the silliness lies.
I don't understand the reasoning behind vegans, we have no obligation to take a moral high ground and never harm animals in the slightest even for food, we're omnivores, we are designed by million of years of evolution to eat animals and vegetables, we get more nutrition from animals than they do from plants. Mind you, eating animals hasn't actually always come naturally to people, apparantly before Romans came to Britain we didn't eat chicken, we ate eggs and made them fight for money, but Romans had to point out they were edible.
We're Apex Predators. Evolution put us where we are and if humans are anything we're opportunistic. So I'm going to consume meat, vegetables, fruit, and all other foods that I can acquire because evolution (and personal circumstance) has given me that luxury.
If vegans/vegetarians don't eat meat because they don't want to harm animals that's their prerogative. Just don't try and justify that they have some moral high ground over humans who choose to be omnivores.
Sure, by all means care for these animals if that's what you'd like to do. But sooner or later natural selection will run its course. Animals will die, plants will die. Animals will become extinct or evolve and so will plants. This is the way of the world and I'm not even going to think for a moment that I really believe we're capable of changing that at the moment. Adapt or die, that's the line the world has been throwing at animals since our ancestors first climbed out of the primordial ooze.
For the record, I don't think animals should be abused because that's just psychotic behavior. However, I'll be damned if I care more about some cow or chicken than about a human child who lives in worse conditions and doesn't have the luxury of eating everyday. I just have this odd habit of putting my own species at the top of my priority list of things that matter to me.
If vegans/vegetarians don't eat meat because they don't want to harm animals that's their prerogative. Just don't try and justify that they have some moral high ground over humans who choose to be omnivores.
Sure, by all means care for these animals if that's what you'd like to do. But sooner or later natural selection will run its course. Animals will die, plants will die. Animals will become extinct or evolve and so will plants. This is the way of the world and I'm not even going to think for a moment that I really believe we're capable of changing that at the moment. Adapt or die, that's the line the world has been throwing at animals since our ancestors first climbed out of the primordial ooze.
For the record, I don't think animals should be abused because that's just psychotic behavior. However, I'll be damned if I care more about some cow or chicken than about a human child who lives in worse conditions and doesn't have the luxury of eating everyday. I just have this odd habit of putting my own species at the top of my priority list of things that matter to me.
My sister is a Vegan. She mainly does it because of all the the harmful stuff that goes into meat these days. She only buys organic food and nothing processed. Some of it is actually really good. She bought organic sweet peppers the other day and they taste great.
She has been trying to get me to eat healthier which I need to do. I also need to lose weight as well. I like the taste of meat to much to stop eating it. The Morningstar vegetarian burgers are pretty good and they taste just like meat which is nice.
She has been trying to get me to eat healthier which I need to do. I also need to lose weight as well. I like the taste of meat to much to stop eating it. The Morningstar vegetarian burgers are pretty good and they taste just like meat which is nice.
Yes. If it didn't, you wouldn't be a vegetarian/vegan.OhSnap said:
You're right...I CAN fuck right off! You're flawless debating skills have made me see the light!
At no point did i tell you how to live your life. I merely expressed my opinion as it currently stands, if you see that as "telling you to live your life", you've got problems.
Ok. See? Now you've answered my question and helped me understand the issue a bit better without exploding at me because i'm so obviously trying to establish a meat-eating regime where veganism is illegal. That wasn't so hard now, was it?
I'm not a vegan, but I've cut eggs and the majority of meats out of my diet, plus moved onto soya milk. Reasons? Variety of them:
a) To me, bugger all difference between cow milk and soya therefore why not? Any of you looked at the pus content in cow milk? There is a pretty large quantity of it floating about in there that I'd rather not have in me.
b) The dairy industry supports the veal industry. Baby cow can't have mommys milk or that would mean not enough for us right?
c) The egg industry is pretty appauling, even free range. There was a pretty big thing about "Happy Egg Co" a while back, where the conditions were found to be pretty bad, despite the fact it is a Free Range Egg company.
d) I don't believe we are naturally carnivores, nor are we naturally herbivores, we are opportunistic omnivores. We eat whatever we can get our hands on at the time, be it meat or veg. Veg and plants in the summer, and meat in the winter. But predominantly we had a vegetation diet. This means the actual amount of protein we need in our diet is low not that high daily. You can get 30-40% of your RDA from a serving of beans damn it, and we are oversaturated with it, a pizza I ate the other day? 160% of RDA of protein in one meal.
In a college urine sample I got told to eat less protein and drink more as I was actually pissing the stuff.
e) The intelligence of animals is higher than most of you give them credit for. I was surprised with the feelings chickens can actually show, grief for example.
f) The enviromental impact of the meat production worldwide is huge. One third of arable land worldwide is used in cattle grazing and feed production, so if everyone reduced the amount of meat they ate, we could pretty much solve world hunger, lower greenhouse emissions helping global warming, and generally have a more efficient life.
So to sum up, I don't see anything inherently wrong with eating meat, but the industry is terrible, both in its practices and its impact. We no longer NEED to eat meat, and if we carry on the way we are going, we'll eat ourselves to death.
Mostly though? This thread just pissed me off with the ignorance and anger. I've seen at least one person here say vegans piss them off simply by making that choice, and when one person got defensive:
a) To me, bugger all difference between cow milk and soya therefore why not? Any of you looked at the pus content in cow milk? There is a pretty large quantity of it floating about in there that I'd rather not have in me.
b) The dairy industry supports the veal industry. Baby cow can't have mommys milk or that would mean not enough for us right?
c) The egg industry is pretty appauling, even free range. There was a pretty big thing about "Happy Egg Co" a while back, where the conditions were found to be pretty bad, despite the fact it is a Free Range Egg company.
d) I don't believe we are naturally carnivores, nor are we naturally herbivores, we are opportunistic omnivores. We eat whatever we can get our hands on at the time, be it meat or veg. Veg and plants in the summer, and meat in the winter. But predominantly we had a vegetation diet. This means the actual amount of protein we need in our diet is low not that high daily. You can get 30-40% of your RDA from a serving of beans damn it, and we are oversaturated with it, a pizza I ate the other day? 160% of RDA of protein in one meal.
In a college urine sample I got told to eat less protein and drink more as I was actually pissing the stuff.
e) The intelligence of animals is higher than most of you give them credit for. I was surprised with the feelings chickens can actually show, grief for example.
f) The enviromental impact of the meat production worldwide is huge. One third of arable land worldwide is used in cattle grazing and feed production, so if everyone reduced the amount of meat they ate, we could pretty much solve world hunger, lower greenhouse emissions helping global warming, and generally have a more efficient life.
So to sum up, I don't see anything inherently wrong with eating meat, but the industry is terrible, both in its practices and its impact. We no longer NEED to eat meat, and if we carry on the way we are going, we'll eat ourselves to death.
Mostly though? This thread just pissed me off with the ignorance and anger. I've seen at least one person here say vegans piss them off simply by making that choice, and when one person got defensive:
Secret world leader (shhh) said:
Kind of what I mean.Texas Joker 52 said:
I just hate the 'moral high ground' argument, because whether you eat a burger or not, the animal that went into making it is still dead. You didn't save anything by being a vegan.
I'v got absolutely nothing against vegans or vegetarians, just so long as they don't act like they're a better human beings.
Yes, and I get somewhat annoyed at moral high-ground arguements myself sometimes, because as long as you've looked at evidence and made an actual informed choice, then its unfair to be all superiour just because you came to a different conclusion.Daystar Clarion said:
But this is a bit of a shortsighted view. Yes that animal is still dead, if anyone eats it or not, but there is supply and demand. If it isn't eaten maybe the next one won't be killed as it would be a waste. And by not eating it, you don't support an industry you don't agree with.