We should forgive Bioware.

Atmos Duality

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shrekfan246 said:
I'm not saying that people should blindly love them again. Just that blindly hating them is equally as ridiculous. You should always be wary of what you buy, no matter who is selling it, that's being a savvy customer.
I'm only cautioning here because when I see often see topics or articles/videos etc asking people to "forgive", they are really asking for everyone to just go back to how things were before; which is just recreating the same conditions that lead to the first problem.

Blindly hating anything is ridiculous, yes.
If you must hate on something, at least have a good objective reason for it.
 

shrekfan246

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Atmos Duality said:
shrekfan246 said:
I'm not saying that people should blindly love them again. Just that blindly hating them is equally as ridiculous. You should always be wary of what you buy, no matter who is selling it, that's being a savvy customer.
I'm only cautioning here because when I see often see topics or articles/videos etc asking people to "forgive", they are really asking for everyone to just go back to how things were before; which is just recreating the same conditions that lead to the first problem.

Blindly hating anything is ridiculous, yes.
If you must hate on something, at least have a good objective reason for it.
I don't want people to go back to worshiping the ground Bioware walks on. Hell, I'm not even a huge Bioware fan myself - I've enjoyed KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age, but that's purely it. I enjoyed them. They were sources of entertainment for me for untold hours, and when I finished them that was it. They were over. I moved on to other games. Hell, I didn't even know KotOR was a "Bioware Game" back when I first got it. I just liked Star Wars.

I don't think people are wrong for being mad about all of the things that have happened to Bioware over the last few years. But I think the hatred for EA is reaching critical mass and has helped amplify the rage directed at Bioware, and it's just tiring. You should never put blind faith in a developer, no matter how good they are. By the same token, you shouldn't hate a developer because they're doing things differently, or because they're owned by one of the worst publishers currently in the industry, or because they've made "mediocre" "passable" games after a long history of great games.

I... probably don't look at these types of things with enough emotion, though. I'm fairly neutral about most things in relation to developers and publishers. I don't like EA's business practices, but I like the games they release. I've had fun with a few Valve games, but I try to not use Steam if I can help it and I don't care about Half-Life 3. I don't harbor any strong feelings toward Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft. Maybe I'm just weird...
 

superdark

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Actually, I really like the old republic. Sure, DR2 and ME3 were let downs, but I think bioware deserves some credit for TOR.
 

ThriKreen

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Draech said:
Bioware isn't interested in my forgiveness. They may like that they have a loyal fanbase, but that itself is just one point in getting into your wallet. They dont love me. No developer does. They dont even know me.
Emphasis added by me. As someone who's been on both sides of the gamer/dev border, and has moderated on said dev's forums for awhile, pretty much this.

Only a very small percentage of the studio looks at the forums, usually a couple writers, QA perhaps, the community reps if the studio is large enough to have one, otherwise they'd rely on the owning publisher's PR and marketing team. And even then, they usually only frequent their own, not others like, say, here's.

I mean, can you name the devs on the game and their roles (Without looking up the credits)? Their past game credits? Probably not, you mostly only see the front facing ones they parade around at shows and videos.

And of course it goes both ways, if you came up to them at a convention and introduce yourself, would they go "Oh it's you! How are you doing?" I rarely remember who I've talked to on forums from last year, let alone last month. It's all due to the frequency of the interaction, they MIGHT interact with you for like one post a day, maybe a week? If you're lucky - most of the time some rep will do something like collect feedback and forward a list to the devs, so they don't even know who posted it. Unless you stand out in some way besides just posting on a forum.

And yet people think their $60 purchase == investment in the company. I'm not trying to be dismissive of the impact the community can be, or say "know your place, you're just a number" but realize how ignorant the devs are of you.
 

AJax_21

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I'm not a fan of their other games but I did love Mass Effect as a franchise. Both of the previous games are heavily flawed but they offered me something that not a lot of developers offer, a huge, sprawling universe that has interesting lore and divulges in interesting themes. Now after Mass Effect 3, I just don't give a shit about anything they'll ever put out.

I don't hate them or anything, it's just my opinion of them have lowered extremely after Mass Effect 3.
 

verdant monkai

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We all have to remember that Bioware are a company with multiple teams, the team that did ME3 was not the exact same that did DA2. Other Bioware teams could be working on good stuff as we type.
I thought ME3 was great until the end which I hated. Now the extended cut is out I only think it is poor. I mostly blame Casey Hudson for the ending, but the whole ending thing is still a mine field so lets not go into it.

I liked DA2. The biggest complaint was "you don't travel round trying to save the world", surely that is a good thing because it breaks the mold from every other rpg ever. The copy and pasted environments did suck though.

I never gave a shit about the star wars rpg they made and dont even know what was apparently wrong with it.


I cannot really forgive them for destroying Mass Effect. Yes it is destroyed. The multiple endings guarantee there will be no more post ME3 games only, fucking annoying prequels.

As for dragon age 3 hey lets give it a chance! its ending can't be as bad as Mass Effects..... right?
 

Misterian

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I personally don't really have a problem with Bioware.

The only real point where I thought Bioware was somewhat taking missteps was with Dragon Age: Origins.

I didn't by any means think Dragon Age was a bad game or even badly written, I just felt, when I played it, that Bioware seemed to sometimes be trying too hard with their 'Dark Fantasy'. I mean, this is the game that deconstructs some parts of being a mage!

And I'm not bothered by ME3's ending, partly because before Extended Cut I just pretended it didn't exist and used fanon discontinuity to make so in my mind Shepard simply sacrificed himself to destroy the Reapers (and ONLY the Reapers) and everyone else in the galaxy lives happily ever after.

But mostly because I saw on Youtube what the EC version of the Control ending was like, and I can only describe it in 2 words; 'beyond badass'.
 

Nimzabaat

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Savo said:
I really want to forgive Bioware. They have some extremely talented writers that can create immersion and emotional attachment with a player like few other games (or many stories for that matter). But damn, two--maybe three, I haven't played TOR--disasters in a row is pretty bad. Just one would be acceptable, but ME3's ending was a ***** slap to anyone who liked the story and characters, and DA2 was obviously a money grab.

Still, I want to go back to where I was a hardcore Bioware fan that would buy their stuff in an instant. All that it will take is for me to see some sincere effort on their part. If they take their time with DA3 and make it a kickass game that they can be proud of, I'll start calling myself a Bioware fan with pride again.
Actually there was an announcement a while back. Bioware had some pretty talented writers but they left the company to pursue other interests. That's where we get ME3s "If you're not ready to die, you're already dead!" (that was soooooo awful).

On topic: I'm not sure where this new mentality is coming from. The "Oh look someone shit in my cereal. Well I shall eat it and not complain because complaining means i'm acting entitled." It's up to us as consumers to not pay for an inferior product. That's how we make our feelings known. So everytime a developer comes out with a game that you would feel bad about purchasing; buy another copy of Skyrim or The Witcher (1 or 2) and tell them that good games get rewards. That's what I do.

Anybody need another copy of Skyrim... (just kidding)
 

WhiteTigerShiro

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shrekfan246 said:
Bioware has a long history of releasing pretty good games.
So did Rare, at one point. Same goes with Square Soft, a company that manages to maintain more relevance than Rare in the current market (albeit under a different name), but only barely, and they aren't nearly as untouchable as they were during their SNES/Early-PSX heyday. Then there's iD Software, they're still kicking around, but despite having created and defined an entire genre back in their glory days, their games are only so-so today.

I'm sure I could rattle-off a few other relics that used to be the gods of gaming 10+ years ago, but are barely remembered today (if they're even still around) because of how their games have dropped in quality. Now, I'm not saying that Bioware is definitely walking down that path as we speak, just saying that a back-log of good games doesn't mean anything if their games continue to not impress.
 

Don Reba

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I don't hate Bioware. I simply acknowledge the reality of it having become just another mediocre publisher-owned developer and get on with my life. It might still surprise me, but probably won't.
 

Atmos Duality

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shrekfan246 said:
I don't think people are wrong for being mad about all of the things that have happened to Bioware over the last few years. But I think the hatred for EA is reaching critical mass and has helped amplify the rage directed at Bioware, and it's just tiring. You should never put blind faith in a developer, no matter how good they are. By the same token, you shouldn't hate a developer because they're doing things differently, or because they're owned by one of the worst publishers currently in the industry, or because they've made "mediocre" "passable" games after a long history of great games.
Cannot speak for others, but I don't "hate" Bioware.
I simply will not buy their games because they are owned by EA.

Why?
In brief, it's because I find EA to be a dangerous force in the industry who continuously wants to force practices that I don't agree with (and make them industry-standard), and thus harmful to my hobby. Disagree if you wish, but most of my experiences with EA have largely been in the red.

Therefore, buying their games simply means supporting the source of the problem, and that's idiocy.

I... probably don't look at these types of things with enough emotion, though. I'm fairly neutral about most things in relation to developers and publishers. I don't like EA's business practices, but I like the games they release. I've had fun with a few Valve games, but I try to not use Steam if I can help it and I don't care about Half-Life 3. I don't harbor any strong feelings toward Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft. Maybe I'm just weird...
It's not terribly weird. Just a different part of the demographic.
Plus, people change. I used to care an awful lot more about Nintendo and Sony than I do now, and for completely different reasons.
 

Sight Unseen

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If they start making good games again that aren't ripping you off at every turn with monetization schemes, then I'll start buying their good games again. Simple as that.
 

Mikeyfell

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shrekfan246 said:
Well, I actually liked about 70% of Dragon Age 2 and never played The Old Republic, so for me it was only Mass Effect 3 that turned me off of Bioware forever.

But everyone likes it a lot, and the more I see positive comments about Mass Effect 3 the crazier I think I'm going.

Can you tell me what Mass Effect 3 did right? Like anything it did that was good, Because I've played it through 6 times now and have found maybe 3 minutes of "acceptable" or "good" things in this 50 hour game.

What did you like about it? Is there something specific? Because I've driven my self mad trying to think of any reason someone who enjoyed the first 2 games would like the third one.

I am being sincere here, I'd really like to know what people liked about it.
 

shrekfan246

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Atmos Duality said:
Cannot speak for others, but I don't "hate" Bioware.
I simply will not buy their games because they are owned by EA.

Why?
In brief, it's because I find EA to be a dangerous force in the industry who continuously wants to force practices that I don't agree with (and make them industry-standard), and thus harmful to my hobby. Disagree if you wish, but most of my experiences with EA have largely been in the red.

Therefore, buying their games simply means supporting the source of the problem, and that's idiocy.
Well, I take issue with the rhetoric you use, but I don't disagree with you. If people don't want to support EA, then that's fine. As I said, I don't like EA's business practices. I often find myself in quite the quandary because I can't decide whether I want to not encourage EA's practices or play the game that has my interest. The hatred for EA seems to spill over into hating the developers they own based purely on the fact that they're owned by EA, though, which I think is a bit ridiculous. Think of hating The Simpsons because of something Rupert Murdoch did. It wouldn't make any sense, would it?

It's not terribly weird. Just a different part of the demographic.
Plus, people change. I used to care an awful lot more about Nintendo and Sony than I do now, and for completely different reasons.
I suppose that's true.
 

Eremiel

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My problem doesn't lie with the games Bioware have made. ME3 was good, excepting the ending.

My problem lies with them thinking that they are completely infallible.
Look at how they initially reacted to the outcry over said ME3 endings. They insisted stubbornly that people just didn't 'get' their amazing artistic visions and that the outcries were those of 'spoiled and entitled' gamers. Never for a single second did they stop to consider that maybe, just maybe.. the endings actually deserved the critique. Same thing for SW:ToR. All criticisms were met with complete dismissal.

Their sheer arrogance and the way they act is what has killed them in my eyes.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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No, they have lowered whatever quality they once had and frankly I can't take tat BS anymore. Let them make shooters like everyone else far all I care........
 

mxfox408

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It would seem bioware is headed in the direction of the former #1 RPG developer SquareEnix is at, swirling of the toilet bowl. The minute you make mistakes then insult your fanbase using term artistic Integrity, then not admitting you messed up, its in a place we hate to see video game developer. We already have to deal with it enough on a day to day bases with corporations, we hate to see it tucking over our entertainment. Unfortunately that's where bioware is headed.