Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls

[MrHide-Patten]

As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.

Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.

Spoiler

That said I might pick it up... once I've finished up my backlog, but by then the graphics troll in my brain will start screaming how it looks dated.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Yes. In New Londo.

(For once I was like "He'll probably wreck it somehow but I don't care - I'm secure in my love of Dark Souls" but then he liked it and all was good).

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

and here i am getting even more irritated over the fact the game uses GFWL and therefore is not avaliable in my region

 

[Optifix]

You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods)

Actually, when you first get dropped in Firelink (you loaded up your old file), the first thing you see is a Bonfire and an NPC directly in front of you. That NPC tells you exactly where to go. He says there's two bells, one up and one below. Talk to him again and he says the first bell is in the Undead Church, but the lift is broken, so you'll have to climb the stairs up the ruins and access the Undead Burg through the waterway.

Hearing that and thinking he's talking about the building is understandable, but when you go that way, get killed by skeletons and see there's no waterway, it should be pretty obvious that that's not the way to go.

Also, you were making a big deal about running away from the first boss. When you get into that room, one of the first things you should notice is the tutorial message on the floor. Not only does the message say 'Get Away!', but it also puts you in view of the door opening.

So, whatever ideas you're applying to Dark Souls from other games you've played should be irrelevant, as the game shows and tells you what to do. To see those environmental clues and think, 'No, I'm supposed to fight that thing, that's what other games do' is a fault of your own and not of the game.

Those tutorial messages were left by the developers, by the way. Players can't leave messages in the Undead Asylum, because it's the tutorial level.

 

[otakon17]

Did anyone tell Yahtzee that Anor Londo was inhabited by GIANTS?

 

[IrisNetwork]

WOW! Yahtzee actually did it. After so many times of teasing us with a glance of the box art, he finally did a full review of Dark Souls.

He likened it to Half Life AND Painkiller? Looks like he liked it. A lot of spite for the online multiplayer but then, thats Yahtzee alright.

Also... *tosses Shadow Warrior at Yahtzee*

 

[Thanatos2k]

Here's the thing. Its a monster fighting game. You fight monsters. You are a dude whose sole purpose is to fight monsters. And you found a monster. And you're a monster fighter, in a monster fighting game. And you're tell me you're first thought was to run away from the monster, to not fight the monster because the monster is too big?!

Sounds like you assumed something and you're mad your flawed assumptions were wrong.

You know what they say about when you assume....

God help you if you ever play Shadows of the Colossus - you'll never get anything done!

You're doing the equivalent of seeing a colossus in SotC, leaping onto its leg, stabbing it repeatedly, and crying out "WHY ISN'T IT DYING!?"

I did go load it up - mayhaps I was mis-remembering. But no. No, not really. You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods) Its not obtuse - its damn linear gameplay. There are no warnings, no signs, nothing that indicates this graveyard is full of unbeatable enemies.
It IS a beginners trap, and on a game where its deliberately obtuse and difficult, that is just cruel. Its no immersive or deep or understanding. Its a cruel way to start a game.

It's only a trap if you somehow forgot the lesson in the tutorial ten minutes ago that some enemies are not beatable when you first encounter them. But hey, who ever listens to tutorials anyways, right?

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

The video was hilarious and made me want to go and play Dark Souls until I remembered that I bought it at launch for $60 and then almost immediately traded it back. The atmosphere and exploration were something I really wanted to get into, but the difficulty was just too much for me. I do hear tell that it's a lot easier to get into after you managed to defeat the second boss, but eh, I just didn't have it in me.

Don't get me wrong, the game is really neat and I'm glad Dark Souls has it's loyal audience, but it just isn't for me. Sharp difficulty curbs just aren't my thing.

 

[lRookiel]

Now try some PVP Yahtzee......


DO IT!

 

[WWmelb]

It's nice to see people pointing out that it wasn't necessarily the difficulty that made Dark Souls enjoyable. Once I got past some initial grinding and shamelessly wikied the basic mechanics and arbitrary quest lines, the underlying narrative was able to draw me in.

And don't get me started on the fucking gargoyle bosses on the roof of the undead church (or wherever it was)...

Summon Solaire and apply the lightning powder.

Boom, boss fight over.

Which is where instructions for summoning would have been nice. Those things minced me a dozen times before I looked up that humanity was more than a cosmetic.

Well, you meet Solaire before you get to the gargoyles, and if you take the time to talk to him, he explains how to summon and how it works, so the game DOES give you instructions, just gives them in the game world, as you are playing, not far before you need to know.

You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods)

Actually, when you first get dropped in Firelink (you loaded up your old file), the first thing you see is a Bonfire and an NPC directly in front of you. That NPC tells you exactly where to go. He says there's two bells, one up and one below. Talk to him again and he says the first bell is in the Undead Church, but the lift is broken, so you'll have to climb the stairs up the ruins and access the Undead Burg through the waterway.

Hearing that and thinking he's talking about the building is understandable, but when you go that way, get killed by skeletons and see there's no waterway, it should be pretty obvious that that's not the way to go.

Also, you were making a big deal about running away from the first boss. When you get into that room, one of the first things you should notice is the tutorial message on the floor. Not only does the message say 'Get Away!', but it also puts you in view of the door opening.

So, whatever ideas you're applying to Dark Souls from other games you've played should be irrelevant, as the game shows and tells you what to do. To see those environmental clues and think, 'No, I'm supposed to fight that thing, that's what other games do' is a fault of your own and not of the game.

Those tutorial messages were left by the developers, by the way. Players can't leave messages in the Undead Asylum, because it's the tutorial level.

I appreciate you taking the time to type out most of the things i was going to type, thanks lol.

2) Read some guides and do not feel bad about it. Dark Souls isn't a game that you have to play blind unless you really just want to claim some sort of pseudo-ironman bullshit.

Well, as i stated before, i didn't look up a guide until my third play through, not out of some stupid "pseudo-ironman bullshit". That is not the ONLY reason to play without a guide. The thrill and wonder of exploration is what kept me away from guides, and the joy of the kill when i finally got it.

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

SNIP

The problem I had with it was the utter lack of direction. You're not told anything and expected to learn by dying enough times to trial-and-error your way through.

Unfortunately, I went into the game with the expectation of "Really challenging but also very rewarding RPG" when what it played like was a 3D version of 'I Wanna Be The Guy.' Those are two wildly different experiences. They can both be fun, sure, but you have to know what you're getting into and design the game appropriately. I think a lot more people would enjoy the game if it was just a little more obvious what direction you're supposed to be going in. Not what direction you're required to go in, mind you. If you want to brave an area that expects you to be much tougher than you are, then by all means.

But as it stands, it's a game with very little direction to give players that expects you to gauge which way you need to go based on whichever direction kills you the fewest times, and that's a problem. In virtually every game ever, 'death' is synonymous with 'failure.' If you didn't enter the game with the modified mindset that death does not equal failure, you're going to get frustrated real fast.

And when you have a dozen different types of weapons, spells, and magic doo-dads that can drastically change how effective you are against certain enemies, there will be players (like you and me, apparently) who hurl themselves into zones while wildly underleveled because the only information on the game they were told was "The game is super hard."

I agree with you 100%. As a player, you had no direction and no basis from which understand and judge encounters. Like the first boss that you run away from. That killed me maybe a dozen times because I've never heard of a game where you run away from the FIRST boss. Especially when the first level is a training course to get familiarized with the controls. Usually the first boss is a test of the basic dodge/block/hit/more powerful hit mechanics. Not a beginners trap you're not supposed to fight.
Who would have guessed you're supposed to run away?! To me it would be the equivalent of having the first puzzle room in Portal be solved by leaving the area through the door you came in. You would never think to do it unless you were really REALLY desperate.

I only played DS for about ten minutes to give it a shot, but I have to ask: Didn't you notice the sign in front of you screaming "RUN!" or something like that? It was on the floor right in front of me when I played.

And surely at the very least you must have played a game with a chase sequence or something that didn't involve instantly trying to butt heads with the boss.

 

[michael87cn]

I hate dark souls for the simple fact that you can't pause. Fuck whoever thought that was a good design decision.

You can pause. By quitting the game you go to the title screen but your character stays where they were. It also only takes a couple of seconds to quit the game, and a couple of seconds to get going again when you return.

 

[draigodragon]

and the lore is fucking amazing

 

[Mikejames]

Well, you meet Solaire before you get to the gargoyles, and if you take the time to talk to him, he explains how to summon and how it works, so the game DOES give you instructions, just gives them in the game world, as you are playing, not far before you need to know.

Solaire tells you to use his glowing signature for jolly cooperation, but no one ever clarifies that you can't see summon markers when you're hollow.

 

[WWmelb]

Well, you meet Solaire before you get to the gargoyles, and if you take the time to talk to him, he explains how to summon and how it works, so the game DOES give you instructions, just gives them in the game world, as you are playing, not far before you need to know.

Solaire tells you to use his glowing signature for jolly cooperation, but no one ever clarifies that you can't see summon markers when you're hollow.

I guess that's true, hrmm. I guess i just figured it out through play then.

 

[OuendanCyrus]

Pleasantly surprised that this video happened at all, I was already happy that hebpraised the game on a recent Let's Drown Out... video, but this was just the icing on the cake~

 

[Sotanaht]

For a long time I contemplated trying to email yahtzee (or some other contact method) just to say that, no matter how much anyone pressures you for it, do NOT review Dark Souls without finishing it first. That's basically what he did with his Demon's souls review, got about half way through 1-2 and gave up at the first metaphorical wall. Well what do you know, he finally breaks through that first wall and the game clicks. Maybe he should go back and try Demon's Souls again now that he finally gets it, not that I expect another review.

 

[yamy]

I hate dark souls for the simple fact that you can't pause. Fuck whoever thought that was a good design decision.

You can pause. By quitting the game you go to the title screen but your character stays where they were. It also only takes a couple of seconds to quit the game, and a couple of seconds to get going again when you return.

Yeah but I'm fairly sure you can't quit in the middle of combat. Or you can but you'll just get killed. If you're in a safe spot then it doesn't matter anyway as you can just stand there, do whatever it is you need to do IRL and come back.

 

[elvor0]

I hate dark souls for the simple fact that you can't pause. Fuck whoever thought that was a good design decision.

Yeah it's pretty stupid. That and the inventory management is clunkly as fuck, the UI in general is clunky to be honest. No comparison with equipped items in shops, dropping an item takes way too long, you can't tell what you're picking up before you do so, bottomless box is awkward. I mean I know you can quit out and not lose anything, but that's just tedious, I understand the choice of it not pausing when you go in your inventory, and I'm good with that, that's a concious design choice to help with the immersion but have a dedicated pause button at the very least, don't let the player do anything in there, but at least have it.

Simple. Open the menu and quit the game, stop what you're doing if you're alone in an area (and hollow), or commit suicide and come back for your souls later.

A pause button for Dark Souls would be redundant and harm its immersion. Also, THE ONLINE IS OPTIONAL! You won't ever have to deal with griefers if you stay hollow or play offline.

This is another example of someone who doesn't know enough about Dark Souls to give valid complaints.

Oh stop being so obtuse. I like Dark Souls, in fact I'd say I love it, but you just sound like a complete ass. "Oh you don't know enough about the game, because you want a pause button, sneer sneer, look how shit you are" If you're never told this information in game, how are you supposed to find out about it other than sheer luck? And no, outside information doesn't count, it should all be there in the game, even if it's just a hint from an NPC that sounds correct in universe, you can't have your game rely on Wikis to function. Furthermore, while I don't mind the online stuff, it's not entirely optional, you'll need it if you want to summon npc helpers or fight Thorn Knight Kirk, who's guitly of Guide Dang It all on his own.

Dude not being able to find the undead Burg, okay pretty silly on his part, but modern gamers are a bit soft with the constant arrows pointing them in the right direction. You'd be surprised how much of a skill being able to recognize sutble hints to the direction you're supposed to be going is(apparently). A lot of my casual gamer friends can't even pick up on the fact that in Tomb Raider games, all the ledges you can grab on to are a shade of white, hence the path to go is pretty fucking obvious.

Every game has a pause button. Every fucking game! The fact is, is that having to die or quit out of the fucking game in order to pause it is clunky and unncessary. If you look up you'll see my thoughts on the issue, but I felt the quote you

Furthermore the tutorial level isn't very good. I didn't struggle with it by any means, but to say it gave you any indication about anything useful beyond the controls is a flat out lie. I'm all for learning by doing, but you are told absoloutely fucking nothing about the game mechanics beyond your own trial and error. Trial and Error for how game mechanics work is just bad funnelling of information to the player.

Humanity, pretty important, but are you told this? No. You /may/ hapeen to notice that your loot find rate has increased with more Humanity, but that'd be pretty lucky, as I doubt you'll be looking at it. There's other stuff too, and I had to read a good few wikis in order to learn most of the game mechanics. That is not good design.

 

[Annihilist]

I love to compare this to the Demon's Souls review from a few years back